Help crimping 115 FMJ .357 Mag

Luciano · February 8, 2008, 12:23 AM

I want to try out some 115 FMJ's that I have in my .357 lever action. I'm already anticipating bullets pushed back in the case by the mag spring. One solution might be using the close to max 22 gr of H110 to fill up the case and hold the bullets in place. Any other ideas?

Tim R · February 8, 2008, 05:51 AM

Other than the fact the 115's will be too small for the bore ya mean?

FM12 · February 8, 2008, 08:10 AM

What diameter are these? Methinks these might be .355, you'll need .357 as a minimum. No pointed bullet tips, by the way. JHP should do nicely, in you're favorite weight.

SL1 · February 8, 2008, 09:03 AM

Tim,

You can shoot 9 mm bullets (.355") from a .357 magnum chamber. I have done it with 90 grainers in a revolver with surprizing accuracy as well as very high speed (for a 6" barrelled revolver).

In a revolver, my problem was that recoil would tend to pull the bullets out, rather than push them into the case. I was able to handle that with a very stout taper crimp (probably becasue the bullets were so light that the recoil was not too bad).

But, you have a different problem. In your tubular magazine, the rearward recoil force goes onto the bullet's nose instead of the case's rim. That tends to push bullets in, rather than pull them out.

If a bullet is pushed deeper into a case, it will have higher pressure when fired. How much higher it might go is hard to figure. Some powders are very sensitive to compression and some are not. Hodgdon's people have told me "never compress ball powders," while Accurate's loading manual shows many compressed loads with some of their ball powders. That makes me nervous about using the powder to stop the bullet from being seated more deeply by recoil. If you don't normally load the cartridge with a compressed powder charge, it is not a good idea to count on the powder to resist bullet movement. At least ask Hodgdon's people about it before you try it with H-110. You can call them on 913-362-9455 and they are very helpful. (I would call instead of e-mail, because they tend to be more forthcoming when they don't have to write it down and think about what their lawyers would say later if they ever saw it.)

There are two other ways to hold the bullet mechanically in the case. One is to roll a crimping goove onto the bullet. There are special tools for doing that. I have one and do not like it at all. It is hard to make a good even groove, and even when I do, it tends to destroy accuracy.

Another way that might work is to put a constriction in the case, just below the bullet base. There is an easy way you could try to do that if you use a carbide sizer die. Just make sure that the case is well-sized to a point below the eventual location of the 115 gr bullet's base. Then, make sure that you stop the expander plug from going down any farther than the bullet's eventual base location. (A little less is best.) That leaves an indented case section below the bullet to stop it from being pushed deeper by recoil.

But, it also probably will not get the flaring section of the expander plug down to the case mouth, so you will probably need to find another way to flare the case mouth a little to get the bullet started. My old Lee Loaders has a hand tool that works well for doing that. But, the design seems to have changed and the whole Lee Loader now costs $29.98. So it would be best to make a call to Lee (262-673-3075) and make sure that they have a part that will work will for what you want to do. You can probably get just the .357 magnum hand tool expander/flarer for a lot less by ordering just that part directly from Lee.

Or, if you are at all handy, you may be able to make an adequate flaring tool from a piece of steel rod with a file, emery paper and an electric drill. Remember, all you are trying to do is temporarily flare the case mouth to slightly over bullet diameter. Once the bullet is seated in the case, you iron-out that flare with a good taper crimp. If you don't have a taper crimp die, you would definitely need to get one.

Whatever method you choose, I strongly suggest that you make up a couple of dummy rounds and test them for bullet movement by firing the gun. First, measure the OAL of each dummy and write them down. Then, put one dummy in the magazine first, followed by a magazine full of normal rounds. Then work the lever to chamber a normal cartridge and add the second dummy round to the magazine. Fire the normal round in the chamber and work the lever twice to eject the empty and the dummy that comes up next. (Don't let the dummy fall to the ground when you eject it.) Now fire the rest of the magazine and carefully eject the last dummy when you get to it. By measureing the OAL of the dummies after that, you will be able to tell if the recoil forces will move your bullets. If not, you are in business.

Good luck and be safe.

SL1

Luciano · February 8, 2008, 01:08 PM

"Another way that might work is to put a constriction in the case, just below the bullet base"

Thanks for your ample post SL1. That's what I was gonna try. I'll just use a short 9mm expander. I have a few different exp dies for the .355 diam.
As far as compressed charges of H110 I'm not too worried. MidwayUSA load book for .357 lists some.

Tim R · February 8, 2008, 07:13 PM

SL1, I am fully aware of Ruger's convertable. I just don't see any advantage to loading 355 sized bullets in a 357 mag case. The crimp could be a real problem. I rely more on the sized case to hold the bullet in place. I only use a med to light crimp on 38 and 357. There are some who think the problem solving answer is to just add more crimp. There comes a point when adding more crimp makes the bullet less secure in the case.

SL1 · February 8, 2008, 09:29 PM

Tim,

Sorry. I meant to address my response to Luciano, but got confused by the way this website switches the order of the posts when you go to the reply screen.

SL1

zxcvbob · February 8, 2008, 09:53 PM

Try not expanding the case at all, to increase the neck tension. Bell the ends just a little with an M die or Lee's universal expander die for cast bullets if you can't get the bullets started. Then use your 9mm seating die instead of your .357 die; adjust it for a taper crimp.

I think a faster powder will work better for you with those light bullets. Maybe 2400?

Luciano · February 8, 2008, 11:07 PM

Reason I'm doing .355 115FMJ in .357 is because I haven't found any .357 tracer rounds. I thought I'd spice it up a bit when coyote hunting...

SL1 · February 9, 2008, 09:25 AM

Tim,

When I was shooting 9 mm bullets from my revolver, I was not using a 9 mm cylinder in a "convertable" Ruger. I was using a Security Six with a .357 magnum chambered cylinder with .358" throats. Stiff charges expand the bullet in the throats enough to get good accuracy at 50 yards. It probably helped that I was using bullets that were designed for lower pressure cartidges like the .380.

Luciano,

Be careful! I am not aware of any 9 mm FMJ tracers that have blunt-enough points to be considered safe in the tubular magazine of a lever action. The military profile for a 9mm bullet is too pointed to be safe against the primer of the cartridge in front of it. I know that some people have argued that rimmed cartridges in tubular magazines are canted enough that the point is really against the case head instead of the primer. But, I have laid two cartridges end-to-end on a flat surface and the nose position does not look safe to me; the points are on the primers. Even if it were true that there can be that much off-set between the cartridge axis and the tube axis, there is no guarantee that the cartridges will not shift in the magazine during recoil and stop in a position with one nose held against a primer by tension in the magazine spring. Flat noses and hollow points are much safer bets in tubular magazines. Maybe you should just shoot one tracer as the round in the chamber and not put any in the magazine. (And, maybe you should carry a fire extinguisher when you hunt coyotes!)

Also, I probably should have mentioned that using a 9mm carbide sizer, not a .357 carbide sizer, helps make that constriction in the case below the bullet. And, of course, the expander plug section should not be more than 0.353" for a 9 mm bullet to ensure a tight bullet grip by the case. The .355" expander in a .357 magnum die gives much less grip.

SL1

Bullet94 · February 9, 2008, 06:04 PM

Quote:

I want to try out some 115 FMJ's that I have in my .357 lever action.

Sounds like trouble to me.

.

FM12 · February 11, 2008, 10:05 PM

Let us know how this works out...if you use either H110 or WW296, I predict lots of squibs.

Luciano · February 11, 2008, 10:51 PM

Will be loading some tommorrow and shoot them in a week or two. Thanks for all the good inputs.

February 8, 2008, 12:23 AM	#1
Luciano Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2006 Posts: 111	Help crimping 115 FMJ .357 Mag I want to try out some 115 FMJ's that I have in my .357 lever action. I'm already anticipating bullets pushed back in the case by the mag spring. One solution might be using the close to max 22 gr of H110 to fill up the case and hold the bullets in place. Any other ideas?

February 8, 2008, 05:51 AM	#2
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	Other than the fact the 115's will be too small for the bore ya mean? __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers.

February 8, 2008, 07:13 PM	#6
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	SL1, I am fully aware of Ruger's convertable. I just don't see any advantage to loading 355 sized bullets in a 357 mag case. The crimp could be a real problem. I rely more on the sized case to hold the bullet in place. I only use a med to light crimp on 38 and 357. There are some who think the problem solving answer is to just add more crimp. There comes a point when adding more crimp makes the bullet less secure in the case. __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers.

February 8, 2008, 08:10 AM	#3
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	What diameter are these? Methinks these might be .355, you'll need .357 as a minimum. No pointed bullet tips, by the way. JHP should do nicely, in you're favorite weight.

February 8, 2008, 09:03 AM	#4
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Tim, You can shoot 9 mm bullets (.355") from a .357 magnum chamber. I have done it with 90 grainers in a revolver with surprizing accuracy as well as very high speed (for a 6" barrelled revolver). In a revolver, my problem was that recoil would tend to pull the bullets out, rather than push them into the case. I was able to handle that with a very stout taper crimp (probably becasue the bullets were so light that the recoil was not too bad). But, you have a different problem. In your tubular magazine, the rearward recoil force goes onto the bullet's nose instead of the case's rim. That tends to push bullets in, rather than pull them out. If a bullet is pushed deeper into a case, it will have higher pressure when fired. How much higher it might go is hard to figure. Some powders are very sensitive to compression and some are not. Hodgdon's people have told me "never compress ball powders," while Accurate's loading manual shows many compressed loads with some of their ball powders. That makes me nervous about using the powder to stop the bullet from being seated more deeply by recoil. If you don't normally load the cartridge with a compressed powder charge, it is not a good idea to count on the powder to resist bullet movement. At least ask Hodgdon's people about it before you try it with H-110. You can call them on 913-362-9455 and they are very helpful. (I would call instead of e-mail, because they tend to be more forthcoming when they don't have to write it down and think about what their lawyers would say later if they ever saw it.) There are two other ways to hold the bullet mechanically in the case. One is to roll a crimping goove onto the bullet. There are special tools for doing that. I have one and do not like it at all. It is hard to make a good even groove, and even when I do, it tends to destroy accuracy. Another way that might work is to put a constriction in the case, just below the bullet base. There is an easy way you could try to do that if you use a carbide sizer die. Just make sure that the case is well-sized to a point below the eventual location of the 115 gr bullet's base. Then, make sure that you stop the expander plug from going down any farther than the bullet's eventual base location. (A little less is best.) That leaves an indented case section below the bullet to stop it from being pushed deeper by recoil. But, it also probably will not get the flaring section of the expander plug down to the case mouth, so you will probably need to find another way to flare the case mouth a little to get the bullet started. My old Lee Loaders has a hand tool that works well for doing that. But, the design seems to have changed and the whole Lee Loader now costs $29.98. So it would be best to make a call to Lee (262-673-3075) and make sure that they have a part that will work will for what you want to do. You can probably get just the .357 magnum hand tool expander/flarer for a lot less by ordering just that part directly from Lee. Or, if you are at all handy, you may be able to make an adequate flaring tool from a piece of steel rod with a file, emery paper and an electric drill. Remember, all you are trying to do is temporarily flare the case mouth to slightly over bullet diameter. Once the bullet is seated in the case, you iron-out that flare with a good taper crimp. If you don't have a taper crimp die, you would definitely need to get one. Whatever method you choose, I strongly suggest that you make up a couple of dummy rounds and test them for bullet movement by firing the gun. First, measure the OAL of each dummy and write them down. Then, put one dummy in the magazine first, followed by a magazine full of normal rounds. Then work the lever to chamber a normal cartridge and add the second dummy round to the magazine. Fire the normal round in the chamber and work the lever twice to eject the empty and the dummy that comes up next. (Don't let the dummy fall to the ground when you eject it.) Now fire the rest of the magazine and carefully eject the last dummy when you get to it. By measureing the OAL of the dummies after that, you will be able to tell if the recoil forces will move your bullets. If not, you are in business. Good luck and be safe. SL1

February 8, 2008, 01:08 PM	#5
Luciano Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2006 Posts: 111	"Another way that might work is to put a constriction in the case, just below the bullet base" Thanks for your ample post SL1. That's what I was gonna try. I'll just use a short 9mm expander. I have a few different exp dies for the .355 diam. As far as compressed charges of H110 I'm not too worried. MidwayUSA load book for .357 lists some.

February 8, 2008, 09:29 PM	#7
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Tim, Sorry. I meant to address my response to Luciano, but got confused by the way this website switches the order of the posts when you go to the reply screen. SL1

February 8, 2008, 09:53 PM	#8
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	Try not expanding the case at all, to increase the neck tension. Bell the ends just a little with an M die or Lee's universal expander die for cast bullets if you can't get the bullets started. Then use your 9mm seating die instead of your .357 die; adjust it for a taper crimp. I think a faster powder will work better for you with those light bullets. Maybe 2400?

February 8, 2008, 11:07 PM	#9
Luciano Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2006 Posts: 111	Reason I'm doing .355 115FMJ in .357 is because I haven't found any .357 tracer rounds. I thought I'd spice it up a bit when coyote hunting...

February 9, 2008, 09:25 AM	#10
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Tim, When I was shooting 9 mm bullets from my revolver, I was not using a 9 mm cylinder in a "convertable" Ruger. I was using a Security Six with a .357 magnum chambered cylinder with .358" throats. Stiff charges expand the bullet in the throats enough to get good accuracy at 50 yards. It probably helped that I was using bullets that were designed for lower pressure cartidges like the .380. Luciano, Be careful! I am not aware of any 9 mm FMJ tracers that have blunt-enough points to be considered safe in the tubular magazine of a lever action. The military profile for a 9mm bullet is too pointed to be safe against the primer of the cartridge in front of it. I know that some people have argued that rimmed cartridges in tubular magazines are canted enough that the point is really against the case head instead of the primer. But, I have laid two cartridges end-to-end on a flat surface and the nose position does not look safe to me; the points are on the primers. Even if it were true that there can be that much off-set between the cartridge axis and the tube axis, there is no guarantee that the cartridges will not shift in the magazine during recoil and stop in a position with one nose held against a primer by tension in the magazine spring. Flat noses and hollow points are much safer bets in tubular magazines. Maybe you should just shoot one tracer as the round in the chamber and not put any in the magazine. (And, maybe you should carry a fire extinguisher when you hunt coyotes!) Also, I probably should have mentioned that using a 9mm carbide sizer, not a .357 carbide sizer, helps make that constriction in the case below the bullet. And, of course, the expander plug section should not be more than 0.353" for a 9 mm bullet to ensure a tight bullet grip by the case. The .355" expander in a .357 magnum die gives much less grip. SL1

February 11, 2008, 10:05 PM	#12
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	Let us know how this works out...if you use either H110 or WW296, I predict lots of squibs.

February 11, 2008, 10:51 PM	#13
Luciano Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2006 Posts: 111	Will be loading some tommorrow and shoot them in a week or two. Thanks for all the good inputs.