Civilian Marksmanship Program??

joh56usa · February 23, 2009, 04:20 PM

I am thinking about buying a M1 from them but I don't know much about them! (Found them on the web!)
Anyone ever bought anything from them? Are they really a government sponsored agency? (They claimed to be?

)

fat old gun nut · February 23, 2009, 04:35 PM

I know a little-the answer to your question is Yes they are . The CMP is a way of allowing federal arms to be transfered to the public IF you qualify. Check the web site and it will give you the means for qualifying.

kraigwy · February 23, 2009, 07:09 PM

Quote:

I am thinking about buying a M1 from them but I don't know much about them! (Found them on the web!)
Anyone ever bought anything from them? Are they really a government sponsored agency? (They claimed to be?)

Yes, its a government agency. Years ago, I believe under President T. Roosevelt, (not sure) the DCM, Division of Civilian Marksmanship was istablished for the purpose of instructing Civliilam marksmanship for the defense of our country. Hense the NATIONAL BOARD FOR CIVILIAN MARKSMANSHIP. They have, through the NRA sold surplus guns to citizens. The DCM was run by the Army. In the early 90s, it was contracted to civilian contractors. The name was changed to CMP, or Civilian Marksmanship Program. Basicly the same thing, but like I said, under civilian contractors.

Under the DCM, when the army ran it, they were always short handed, if you delt with buying guns or working on your leg matches, you'll know they were always behind. The Civilians at the CMP have a larger staff and are faster in providing the service both in sales and scores or leg points for your dist. badges.

This change came about because of the complaints of back logs. Both were outstanding programs, doing what the purpose of the program was set to do.

Besides sales, and managing the Dist. Programs they also support State Assns. with rifles and ammunition, plus are big supporters of jr. programs.

Give them a try, you'll be glad you did. Go to their website and check them out. There you can also chat with members of the Army Marksmanship Unit, the best shooters in the world.

Chris_B · February 24, 2009, 07:27 PM

CMP is 100% reliable and legitimate. And they help if you have a problem, they really stand behind what they sell

Highly recommended. But do not expect to get a new rifle. These are military surplus. They have clear grade definitions on their website

http://www.thecmp.org/m1garand.htm

Here's my CMP Service Grade M1. 1944 Springfield receiver, 1946 Springfield barrel. Arsenal rebuilt at Rock Island Arsenal after the war. The wood is all USGI walnut but be forewarned the wood did not look anywhere near this nice when I got it, although the stock is the stock I got on the rifle. I found nicer matching handguards.

This is what the magazine looked like when I got it- too clean to really clean it. Most are packed in cosmoline still; mine was reparkerized and subsequently clean

Wartime production

Glamour shot with my Dad's M1903A3

jclayto · February 26, 2009, 11:47 AM

My understanding of the history is that they are no longer government sponsored. They were govt sponsored while they were the DCM, but liberal gvt tried to shut down the program by pulling out government funding. The program reemerged as a totally self supporting organization called the CMP in 1996. All CMP money is generated through sales and donations.

To answer the question of are they legit? YES

Here are my 6 CMP rifles. 1 03a3, 2 - HRA, 1 SA, 1 Winchester, 1 IHC.

Ignition Override · March 3, 2009, 01:18 AM

jclayto:

Your outstanding rifle family is quite a collection.

Was it General Patton who stated that the Garand really helped us win the war?
That was when politicians allowed us to win, by taking over real estate.

You guys all have rifles with wood which matches the quality (but no wear) on some of my wife's better antiques, i.e. from the 18th-early 19th centuries.

jclayto · March 4, 2009, 12:54 PM

Thanks for the compliment, I know it may be odd for someone of my age (27) but I really have an interest in the c&r weapons. Most of my friends are into the modern stuff, and I have plenty of those as well, but my real interest is in the old war beast. There is just something about holding a piece of history in my hand, its a feeling I don't get when I shoot my ar's etc.

On a side note, I got to try out my new K98 over the weekend, what a neat rifle. I was lucky enough to get one of the un-peened guns, i had a chance to pick up a single rune BNZ but for some reason the history behind that, although interesting, bothered me so I passed on it.

BTW, the garand on the far left of that photo is an IHC that i purchased from gunbroker, from a guy that bought it from the DCM. The stock had ton's of crud, here are some pictures of it cleaned up, as well as the HRA "Special"

http://people.clemson.edu/~jclayto/Garands/

HKuser · March 4, 2009, 01:21 PM

I believe they are government sponsored enterprise, meaning that it is a privatized spinoff of a government agency (like FreddieMac, SallieMae). Until 1996 they were under direct government control as a office of the Department of the Army.

Quote:

My understanding of the history is that they are no longer government sponsored. They were govt sponsored while they were the DCM, but liberal gvt tried to shut down the program by pulling out government funding. The program reemerged as a totally self supporting organization called the CMP in 1996. All CMP money is generated through sales and donations.

TEDDY · March 11, 2009, 09:28 PM

they are gov sponsered.they get or got guns from the gov and all are checked as sevicable.no FFL is involved you get the rifle ammo direct from CMP.My high school had the program in it and I learned to shot in matches there.

johnwilliamson062 · March 12, 2009, 07:57 AM

just give them a call and start asking stupid questions about their program or the rifles in it. They will have most of the answers and be more patient than most stores. From my trip up to the north store I came away with the impression is it is run by mostly retired military guys who are just having fun.

I would say this is not only government sponsored, but government subsidized.
I can't believe the program will last long.

carguychris · March 12, 2009, 09:07 AM

Quote:

I would say this is not only government sponsored, but government subsidized.
I can't believe the program will last long.

+1 on both. They ARE going to run out of M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, and M1903s. The supply of these rifles is finite; it's simply a matter of time. Once this happens, the operation will probably be scaled back to selling .22LR bolt rifles and supplies for school marksmanship programs.

It was determined years ago that the CMP will NEVER have access to the military's stockpiles of M14s and older M16 variants, even if they were rendered semi-automatic or sold as parts kits. There's a statement to this effect somewhere on their website. In the current political climate, it really ain't gonna happen.

Buy while you still can!

HKuser · March 12, 2009, 02:37 PM

Quote:

I would say this is not only government sponsored, but government subsidized.
I can't believe the program will last long.

No subsidy. They are required to be entirely self-supporting.

johnwilliamson062 · March 12, 2009, 03:14 PM

the government supplies the rifles...
that qualifies as a subsidy in my book.

BombthePeasants · March 12, 2009, 04:48 PM

from what I understand, the rifles they are selling are not from the U.S. Government, they're purchased from foreign countries and shipped back here, thus they aren't "government-supplied".

carguychris · March 12, 2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

from what I understand, the rifles they are selling are not from the U.S. Government, they're purchased from foreign countries and shipped back here, thus they aren't "government-supplied".

Kinda, but not quite. The U.S. military rarely sells weapons outright or gives them away with no strings attached. They are usually loaned under the condition that the U.S. government can ask to have them back someday. The current crop of CMP guns were lent to obscure Cold War allies but have been recalled.

A couple of historical truths are fairly obvious when one looks at the history of many early 20th-century military rifles:

Rifles that are sold or given away to other countries with no strings attached tend to eventually wind up in the hands of a third country or a rebel army.
These rifles sometimes end up shooting back at troops from the country of origin.

Chris_B · March 15, 2009, 07:09 AM

Agree with Chris...they were loaned out

The ones that were sold end up being imported back- these rifles have import marks.

You will not be seeing any import marks on a CMP rifle; the rifles were returned to the owner- the US Government

I have a photo on my PC at work of an M1 in-theater (don't know if it's Afghanistan or Iraq, I will assume Iraq due to their WWII participation but who knows where it was) of a US serviceman holding up an M1 that was captured from enemy troops. Photo's a couple years old

Icopy1 · March 17, 2009, 02:10 PM

I was at the CMP North Store on this past Friday. I am lucky enough to live 50 minutes away. You can spend hours handling the rifles, and I did. I found my friend an M1 Garand that measured 1 at the muzzle and 3 at the throat. The reciever was dated at 1943. The wood was good too. For $495 plus tax he was extremely happy. It's great to be able to handpick the rifles. If they're not busy, the workers will see what they have in the back, if you have anything in particular in mind. I found my finger-grooved Springfield 1903 made in 1918 that way. The barrel measured just under a one.

I also like the Small Arms Fire Schools that the CMP sponsors during the National Matches. I went through both the rifle and pistol course. Being taught marksmanship on an M9 and M16, converted to fire single-shot only of course, is very exciting. And the price was just $35 and that included use of the weapon, ammo, class room and range training, a t-shirt and certificate. I highly recommend the trip.

BombthePeasants · March 17, 2009, 03:17 PM

I stand corrected. Loaned. Well, I can vouch for the CMP, because I received my Correct Grade Springfield just this Monday!

DJHShadow · March 17, 2009, 04:03 PM

Reading this post and looking at all those pictures really makes me envious of you folks. My problem is that when I get together about a hundred bucks I buy another Mosin-Nagant. If I can manage to get $200 scraped up, I buy a Mauser.

Seriously...... nice weapons you have!

ltdave · March 17, 2009, 05:34 PM

Quote:

when I get together about a hundred bucks I buy another Mosin-Nagant. If I can manage to get $200 scraped up, I buy a Mauser.

thats too bad...

bolt actions are bolt actions. the garand was the first semi-auto adopted by any military in the world and everyone feared it...

The Office of the Director of Civilian Marksmanship (DCM) was created by the U.S. Congress as part of the 1903 War Department Appropriations Act. The original purpose was to provide civilians an opportunity to learn and practice marksmanship skills so they would be skilled marksmen if later called on to serve in the U.S. military. Over the years the emphasis of the program shifted to focus on youth development through marksmanship. From 1916 until 1996 the CMP was administered by the U.S. Army. Title XVI of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1996 (Public Law 104-106, 10 February 1996) created the Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice & Firearms Safety (CPRPFS) to take over administration and promotion of the CMP. The CPRPFS is a tax-exempt non-profit 501(c)(3) corporation chartered by the U.S. Congress, but is not an agency of the U.S. Government (Title 36, United States Code, Section 40701 et seq). Apart from a donation of surplus .22 and .30 caliber rifles in the Army's inventory to the CMP, the CMP receives no Federal funding.

The National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice (NBPRP), an advisory board to the Secretary of the Army (SA), which was created in 1903, was disestablished by this law and replaced by the CPRPFS. The initial board was appointed by the SA and is responsible to develop all policies and procedures for the implementation of all aspects of the CMP.

the DCM was told to start making a profit by the philanderer in chief clintoon. the name was changed to Office of the Director for Civilian Marksmanship Program and the price of Garands went from $165 to $300. theyve climbed every year since. also the garands used to be "one in a lifetime" to "no more than 12 to include stripped receivers in a year"...

the army was pulled out of helping with the National Matches in 1968 i think. right about the time of the GCA 1968 (go figure) and thats when they stopped issuing ammunition on the firing line...

by the way here are my 8 garands:

if you dont know, Springfield Armory (the federal armory in mass) was the first to build Rifle, Caliber .30, M1. Winchester was brought in in late 42 with the first rifles coming out in 43 (i THINK). they built about 4 million thru the end of 45. after WWII WRA wanted some money out of their tooling so they sold (with the feds blessing) the machinery to Italy. in 52 the feds started to think that there might not be enough rifles in the even of a big war (Korea was underway) so they contracted with Harrington Richards Arms and in an effort to move some small arms manufacturing out of new england got International Harvester Corporation to build some. they started using receivers forged by SA. HRA and IHC started to deliver rifles in 54 i believe...

in the meantime Italy set the old WRA tooling up in the Pietro Beretta and Breda arms plants. these two companies made and sold rifles to just about anyone who wanted them. some 20,000 were produced for Denmark in 1955 and marked with the Danish Crown and FKF (Forsvarets Krigsmaterial Forvaltning or Defense Warmateriel Administration). others were made for persia with a persian crest. they all have there own serial number ranges...

the US left M1s in Denmark after the war (about 20,000 and sold another 40,000) and the Danes adopted the rifle as Gevær M/50 which translates roughly to Rifle Model 1950. the Danes produced their own barrels and then later their own bayonets. the barrels were produced by Våbenarsenalet or Arms Arsenal and are marked VAR.

my rifles are SA, WRA, HRA, IHC and Beretta. i put off getting a Breda for so long that i can no longer find one, even if its just a receiver to put BMR or BMB parts on...

DJHShadow · March 18, 2009, 10:14 AM

Itdave: I really appreciate the reply. I do remember when prices were lower and I kick myself for not buying one in the early 90's when I first got interested in MilSurps. Iv'e been a life member (Endowment) of the NRA for a while now and regularly read the DCM/CMP ads. As a side note my interest in the M1 Garand dates back to the 60's. My father was Army infantry in WWII with the 89th Inf. Div., 354th Inf. Reg. and fought in Central Europe. Anyhow, as a kid I was watching the old TV show "Combat" with him and asked him if he ever shot any of the weapons the Americans had. He said that he couln't "hit" anything with the Thompson sub-machinegun and the M1 carbine wasn't "powerful" enough. When it came to the M1 Garand he smiled and said, "that was a hell of a rifle". He was silent for a few seconds and continued "I once saw a German shot through a 6 inch tree with one of those. I could have picked up anything I wanted to shoot, but I kept the Grand (sic)". Thanks again for the input.

February 23, 2009, 04:20 PM	#1
joh56usa Member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Location: State of Ohio Posts: 99	Civilian Marksmanship Program?? I am thinking about buying a M1 from them but I don't know much about them! (Found them on the web!) Anyone ever bought anything from them? Are they really a government sponsored agency? (They claimed to be?) __________________ United States Constitution (R) & Bill of Rights (R) Join now! http://gunowners.org/

February 23, 2009, 04:35 PM	#2
fat old gun nut Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Posts: 244	CMP I know a little-the answer to your question is Yes they are . The CMP is a way of allowing federal arms to be transfered to the public IF you qualify. Check the web site and it will give you the means for qualifying. __________________ "I may disagree with what you say but will defend to my death your right to say it"- T. Jefferson

March 11, 2009, 09:28 PM	#9
TEDDY Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: MANNING SC Posts: 837	DCM/CMP they are gov sponsered.they get or got guns from the gov and all are checked as sevicable.no FFL is involved you get the rifle ammo direct from CMP.My high school had the program in it and I learned to shot in matches there.

February 24, 2009, 07:27 PM	#4
Chris_B Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2007 Posts: 3,101	CMP is 100% reliable and legitimate. And they help if you have a problem, they really stand behind what they sell Highly recommended. But do not expect to get a new rifle. These are military surplus. They have clear grade definitions on their website http://www.thecmp.org/m1garand.htm Here's my CMP Service Grade M1. 1944 Springfield receiver, 1946 Springfield barrel. Arsenal rebuilt at Rock Island Arsenal after the war. The wood is all USGI walnut but be forewarned the wood did not look anywhere near this nice when I got it, although the stock is the stock I got on the rifle. I found nicer matching handguards. This is what the magazine looked like when I got it- too clean to really clean it. Most are packed in cosmoline still; mine was reparkerized and subsequently clean Wartime production Glamour shot with my Dad's M1903A3

February 26, 2009, 11:47 AM	#5
jclayto Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2005 Location: Anderson, SC Posts: 600	My understanding of the history is that they are no longer government sponsored. They were govt sponsored while they were the DCM, but liberal gvt tried to shut down the program by pulling out government funding. The program reemerged as a totally self supporting organization called the CMP in 1996. All CMP money is generated through sales and donations. To answer the question of are they legit? YES Here are my 6 CMP rifles. 1 03a3, 2 - HRA, 1 SA, 1 Winchester, 1 IHC.

March 3, 2009, 01:18 AM	#6
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,887	jclayto: Your outstanding rifle family is quite a collection. Was it General Patton who stated that the Garand really helped us win the war? That was when politicians allowed us to win, by taking over real estate. You guys all have rifles with wood which matches the quality (but no wear) on some of my wife's better antiques, i.e. from the 18th-early 19th centuries.

March 4, 2009, 12:54 PM	#7
jclayto Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2005 Location: Anderson, SC Posts: 600	Thanks for the compliment, I know it may be odd for someone of my age (27) but I really have an interest in the c&r weapons. Most of my friends are into the modern stuff, and I have plenty of those as well, but my real interest is in the old war beast. There is just something about holding a piece of history in my hand, its a feeling I don't get when I shoot my ar's etc. On a side note, I got to try out my new K98 over the weekend, what a neat rifle. I was lucky enough to get one of the un-peened guns, i had a chance to pick up a single rune BNZ but for some reason the history behind that, although interesting, bothered me so I passed on it. BTW, the garand on the far left of that photo is an IHC that i purchased from gunbroker, from a guy that bought it from the DCM. The stock had ton's of crud, here are some pictures of it cleaned up, as well as the HRA "Special" http://people.clemson.edu/~jclayto/Garands/

March 12, 2009, 07:57 AM	#10
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	just give them a call and start asking stupid questions about their program or the rifles in it. They will have most of the answers and be more patient than most stores. From my trip up to the north store I came away with the impression is it is run by mostly retired military guys who are just having fun. I would say this is not only government sponsored, but government subsidized. I can't believe the program will last long.

March 12, 2009, 03:14 PM	#13
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	the government supplies the rifles... that qualifies as a subsidy in my book.

March 12, 2009, 04:48 PM	#14
BombthePeasants Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 351	from what I understand, the rifles they are selling are not from the U.S. Government, they're purchased from foreign countries and shipped back here, thus they aren't "government-supplied".

March 15, 2009, 07:09 AM	#16
Chris_B Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2007 Posts: 3,101	Agree with Chris...they were loaned out The ones that were sold end up being imported back- these rifles have import marks. You will not be seeing any import marks on a CMP rifle; the rifles were returned to the owner- the US Government I have a photo on my PC at work of an M1 in-theater (don't know if it's Afghanistan or Iraq, I will assume Iraq due to their WWII participation but who knows where it was) of a US serviceman holding up an M1 that was captured from enemy troops. Photo's a couple years old

March 17, 2009, 02:10 PM	#17
Icopy1 Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 415	I was at the CMP North Store on this past Friday. I am lucky enough to live 50 minutes away. You can spend hours handling the rifles, and I did. I found my friend an M1 Garand that measured 1 at the muzzle and 3 at the throat. The reciever was dated at 1943. The wood was good too. For $495 plus tax he was extremely happy. It's great to be able to handpick the rifles. If they're not busy, the workers will see what they have in the back, if you have anything in particular in mind. I found my finger-grooved Springfield 1903 made in 1918 that way. The barrel measured just under a one. I also like the Small Arms Fire Schools that the CMP sponsors during the National Matches. I went through both the rifle and pistol course. Being taught marksmanship on an M9 and M16, converted to fire single-shot only of course, is very exciting. And the price was just $35 and that included use of the weapon, ammo, class room and range training, a t-shirt and certificate. I highly recommend the trip.

March 17, 2009, 03:17 PM	#18
BombthePeasants Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 351	I stand corrected. Loaned. Well, I can vouch for the CMP, because I received my Correct Grade Springfield just this Monday!

March 17, 2009, 04:03 PM	#19
DJHShadow Member Join Date: January 24, 2006 Posts: 15	Reading this post and looking at all those pictures really makes me envious of you folks. My problem is that when I get together about a hundred bucks I buy another Mosin-Nagant. If I can manage to get $200 scraped up, I buy a Mauser. Seriously...... nice weapons you have!

March 18, 2009, 10:14 AM	#21
DJHShadow Member Join Date: January 24, 2006 Posts: 15	Itdave: I really appreciate the reply. I do remember when prices were lower and I kick myself for not buying one in the early 90's when I first got interested in MilSurps. Iv'e been a life member (Endowment) of the NRA for a while now and regularly read the DCM/CMP ads. As a side note my interest in the M1 Garand dates back to the 60's. My father was Army infantry in WWII with the 89th Inf. Div., 354th Inf. Reg. and fought in Central Europe. Anyhow, as a kid I was watching the old TV show "Combat" with him and asked him if he ever shot any of the weapons the Americans had. He said that he couln't "hit" anything with the Thompson sub-machinegun and the M1 carbine wasn't "powerful" enough. When it came to the M1 Garand he smiled and said, "that was a hell of a rifle". He was silent for a few seconds and continued "I once saw a German shot through a 6 inch tree with one of those. I could have picked up anything I wanted to shoot, but I kept the Grand (sic)". Thanks again for the input.