Cartridge explodes from squeezing - Page 2

SL1 · August 29, 2012, 10:21 AM

I think that is a clear sign that the police aren't going to bother getting to the bottom of this accident. They probably think that there is nothing to prosecute, so why spend the resources? And, they probably expect that they will never get a straight story from the folks involved. Clearly, the story isn't true, as currently being told.

And, if the police are looking for a kid with a gun, then they don't need that case.

SL1

silvrjeepr · August 29, 2012, 10:32 AM

I doubt anything else will be said about this since no one is pursuing criminal charges. A few things to note though. The big dent in the bullet doesn't appear to be new as it isn't shiny. The boy's thumb and forefinger were injured. The primer strike looks too pristine to be from a pebble or nail.

My thoughts after seeing this:

The boy was holding the previously misfired cartridge between his thumb and forefinger at the base and striking it on the ground. Cartridge went boom. Had he not been holding it at the base, he would have lost his thumb and forefinger instantly.

wogpotter · August 29, 2012, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Experts say it typically requires fire, a spark, or some sort excessive heat to set off a bullet without a gun. Currie said he's still talking to his son, searching for an explanation about how it happened and where the bullet came from in the first place.

Notice how the experts don't seem to be aware of "squeezing" or "impact" being possible causes?

The kid "Just found it in his room, we don't know how it got there." Uh huh, I can give them one good guess.

Sevens · August 29, 2012, 12:45 PM

Quote:

but a couple of years ago I would have said the same thing about hay squeezing and I have been educated about that now...

Okay, enlighten please!

warningshot · August 29, 2012, 02:07 PM

Naw. I don't think so. They have the aftermath of NDs of their own to play with at home.

gapchker · August 29, 2012, 03:56 PM

I know it wasn't the brightest idea then, but I did in the past(my ignorat youth) tape military .30 cal blanks to my BB gun and use it to fire them at arms distance... such is youth.. I know so much more now

Lost Sheep · August 29, 2012, 04:40 PM

I have a speculation:

Boy finds a dud round, previously struck by a firing pin or a completely live round - either is possible. Bullet jacket is discolored from aging except where it was inside the case.

Boy, holding bullet between thumb and forefinger, puts bullet nose on a hard surface and a rounded-point nail in the existing firing pin indentation.

Boy takes hammer or rock and strikes nail, setting off the round IN HIS OFF HAND.

The impact (or impacts) easily accounts for the deformation of the nose of the bullet and the detonation of the firing pin.

The primer is not GUARANTEED to be blown out of the primer pocket, especially if there is a hand-held nail with a hammer or rock behind it and no chamber around the cartridge to elevate pressures. Particularly if the primer is crimped. I could not read the headstamp to see if it was a military cartridge, though.

Boy, now realizes that if he tells the absolute truth is going to look like a complete idiot, so "spins" the truth to leave out the nail and hammer, making himself look like only a partial idiot and partial victim of bad luck.

Evidence needed to help support this speculation: Is the injured hand left or right? Is the boy left-handed or right-handed?

(added by edit

I also, along with SL1 and others, noted that there are no rifling marks or striations on the sides of the bullet. Even a smoothbore "zip gun" would have left some marks on the bullet if it had travelled down a barrel. If this bullet had been fired in a gun, the chamber MUST have let go immediately and probably left pieces of the (likely very cheap or homemade) gun scattered around.

I have two questions for the news organizations:

How is it no one commented on an indentation on a primer?

The article states as fact "...the 11-year-old nearly lost his hand." If the injury was that bad, how is it that he was released from hospital in less than a day?

Lost Sheep

p.s. I have sent SL1's post #24 and this post to the reporter Nick Kenney along with the address of this thread. Let's see if it clears up the reporting errors.

SL1 · August 29, 2012, 07:38 PM

Lost Sheep,

Good idea sending this thread to the reporter. Even if it does not get a follow-up article past his editor, at least it will pass along some education to the reporter, who (unfortuately) has a significant probability of getting to report on more firearms related "events" in the future. Maybe he will even join the forum and ask some questions for his next story.

As for the primer blowing out of the case when ignited, I had not thought about a crimped primer. I don't know if the crimp would hold it without a chamber. I guess it is supposed to do that.

All I can tell you is that I learned a new word one day long ago when my grandfather used a nail to set off a pistol primer in an empty case while making an inert round for his grandson. The primer pierced and the cup travelled up the rather thin nail as far as his fingers. No damage except temporarily to his pride and my hearing. (The nail was still larger than most firing pins.)

SL1

Edit: I looked at the video again, and it looks like there is no crimp on the primer pocket. I can't be sure, but it seems that it would have been visible with the camera angle and light angle. Then again, sometimes I don't see a crimp when I am holding a case in my hand. But, I would think that a crimp that is strong enough to hold the primer when fired outside of a chamber would have enough of a groove to it that this video would have revealed it to us.

F. Guffey · August 29, 2012, 11:18 PM

Then there is R. Lee in his book on modern reloading, he ran primers across a chronograph, 700 fps +/- a few or about 225 mph. And then there is the primer, bullet case and no powder, the primer alone can drive the bullet into the barrel/forcing cone.

F. Guffey

Lost Sheep · August 29, 2012, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F. Guffey

Then there is R. Lee in his book on modern reloading, he ran primers across a chronograph, 700 fps +/- a few or about 225 mph. And then there is the primer, bullet case and no powder, the primer alone can drive the bullet into the barrel/forcing cone.

F. Guffey

I am not sure what point you are making?

As far as a forcing cone or barrel is concerned, the evidence suggests that there was no firearm involved. There are no striations on the bullet's side and the condition of the case suggest no chamber was involved, or if there was one, said chamber ruptured very quickly.

700 fps is approximately 477 mph.

I can't get a primer to run at all.

How did he do it?

Their little legs are so short! I can get them to roll (whenever I drop one, it rolls away REAL FAST, but running is out of the question).

Lost Sheep

August 29, 2012, 02:07 PM	#30
warningshot Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2009 Posts: 995	Naw. I don't think so. They have the aftermath of NDs of their own to play with at home. Last edited by warningshot; August 29, 2012 at 02:09 PM. Reason: Addressing Wyoredman's post...

August 29, 2012, 03:56 PM	#31
gapchker Junior Member Join Date: August 18, 2012 Location: Livermore, Ca Posts: 5	It seems funny to me that the father still has the case and bullet I know it wasn't the brightest idea then, but I did in the past(my ignorat youth) tape military .30 cal blanks to my BB gun and use it to fire them at arms distance... such is youth.. I know so much more now __________________ 40xb 25.06 Life is good, Guns keep it that way

August 29, 2012, 04:40 PM	#32
Lost Sheep Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 3,341	SL1 has the best explanation so far I have a speculation: Boy finds a dud round, previously struck by a firing pin or a completely live round - either is possible. Bullet jacket is discolored from aging except where it was inside the case. Boy, holding bullet between thumb and forefinger, puts bullet nose on a hard surface and a rounded-point nail in the existing firing pin indentation. Boy takes hammer or rock and strikes nail, setting off the round IN HIS OFF HAND. The impact (or impacts) easily accounts for the deformation of the nose of the bullet and the detonation of the firing pin. The primer is not GUARANTEED to be blown out of the primer pocket, especially if there is a hand-held nail with a hammer or rock behind it and no chamber around the cartridge to elevate pressures. Particularly if the primer is crimped. I could not read the headstamp to see if it was a military cartridge, though. Boy, now realizes that if he tells the absolute truth is going to look like a complete idiot, so "spins" the truth to leave out the nail and hammer, making himself look like only a partial idiot and partial victim of bad luck. Evidence needed to help support this speculation: Is the injured hand left or right? Is the boy left-handed or right-handed? (added by edit I also, along with SL1 and others, noted that there are no rifling marks or striations on the sides of the bullet. Even a smoothbore "zip gun" would have left some marks on the bullet if it had travelled down a barrel. If this bullet had been fired in a gun, the chamber MUST have let go immediately and probably left pieces of the (likely very cheap or homemade) gun scattered around. I have two questions for the news organizations: How is it no one commented on an indentation on a primer? The article states as fact "...the 11-year-old nearly lost his hand." If the injury was that bad, how is it that he was released from hospital in less than a day? Lost Sheep p.s. I have sent SL1's post #24 and this post to the reporter Nick Kenney along with the address of this thread. Let's see if it clears up the reporting errors. Last edited by Lost Sheep; August 29, 2012 at 05:07 PM.

August 29, 2012, 07:38 PM	#33
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Lost Sheep, Good idea sending this thread to the reporter. Even if it does not get a follow-up article past his editor, at least it will pass along some education to the reporter, who (unfortuately) has a significant probability of getting to report on more firearms related "events" in the future. Maybe he will even join the forum and ask some questions for his next story. As for the primer blowing out of the case when ignited, I had not thought about a crimped primer. I don't know if the crimp would hold it without a chamber. I guess it is supposed to do that. All I can tell you is that I learned a new word one day long ago when my grandfather used a nail to set off a pistol primer in an empty case while making an inert round for his grandson. The primer pierced and the cup travelled up the rather thin nail as far as his fingers. No damage except temporarily to his pride and my hearing. (The nail was still larger than most firing pins.) SL1 Edit: I looked at the video again, and it looks like there is no crimp on the primer pocket. I can't be sure, but it seems that it would have been visible with the camera angle and light angle. Then again, sometimes I don't see a crimp when I am holding a case in my hand. But, I would think that a crimp that is strong enough to hold the primer when fired outside of a chamber would have enough of a groove to it that this video would have revealed it to us. Last edited by SL1; August 29, 2012 at 07:49 PM.

August 29, 2012, 10:21 AM	#26
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	I think that is a clear sign that the police aren't going to bother getting to the bottom of this accident. They probably think that there is nothing to prosecute, so why spend the resources? And, they probably expect that they will never get a straight story from the folks involved. Clearly, the story isn't true, as currently being told. And, if the police are looking for a kid with a gun, then they don't need that case. SL1

August 29, 2012, 10:32 AM	#27
silvrjeepr Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2009 Posts: 213	I doubt anything else will be said about this since no one is pursuing criminal charges. A few things to note though. The big dent in the bullet doesn't appear to be new as it isn't shiny. The boy's thumb and forefinger were injured. The primer strike looks too pristine to be from a pebble or nail. My thoughts after seeing this: The boy was holding the previously misfired cartridge between his thumb and forefinger at the base and striking it on the ground. Cartridge went boom. Had he not been holding it at the base, he would have lost his thumb and forefinger instantly.

August 29, 2012, 11:18 PM	#34
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Then there is R. Lee in his book on modern reloading, he ran primers across a chronograph, 700 fps +/- a few or about 225 mph. And then there is the primer, bullet case and no powder, the primer alone can drive the bullet into the barrel/forcing cone. F. Guffey