Nine rounds of .380 vs five rounds of .38

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Radny97:

About three months ago there were two self-defense shootings in my area within a week of each other. One was an attempted carjacking the other was an attempted home invasion. In both events the person being attacked drew their firearm and fired a single shot at the assailant. In both events the assailant was killed with a single shot.

That the perps died is interesting, but the real question is how quickly the attackers stopped attacking.

In both events the person being attacked drew their firearm and fired a single shot at the assailant. In both events the assailant was killed with a single shot. Moral of the story and answer to the above question? Whichever gun you shoot best with.

The "moral of the story" is that both defenders hit something within the blades of the assailants that did the job. They may or may not have had any idea about what parts of the anatomy they shot.

Ability to place shots on target is more important than magazine capacity. Personally I shoot better with the revolver so that's what I use.

How do you define shooting "better"?

Plus 38+p is more powerful.

True.

[JC57]

I own both guns the OP mentioned. Between the two, I carry the S&W 642 because I can pocket carry it easily, while the Bersa Thunder is a bit too large for me to do that on a regular basis.

[TimSr]

Carry what you like, but be realistic about its limitations.

Agreed. And be realistic about the potential threat.

[OldMarksman]

And be realistic about the potential threat.

To justify the threat or use of deadly force, the defender must (1) be in immediate danger from someone who can cause serious harm and who has provided some some indication that he or who will do so right then should the defender do nothing; and (2) the defender must have no other alternative.

One can reasonably expect the attacker to be moving quickly, for his own evil purposes and survival strategy. That movement will likely be an important element of justification.

The defender will have to react--to draw, present, and if necessary, fire--very quickly indeed.

The mere presentation of a weapon may suffice, but the defender cannot count on that. A single shot that is fired and that misses may suffice, but the defender cannot cannot count on that, either. A hit that does not seriously injure an attacker may result in a psychological stop, but one cannot count on that.

To effect a stop by inflicting serious physical injury, one will have to hit at least one critical part of the attacker's anatomy, and perhaps more. All of those parts are small. and they are hidden from the defender's view in a large three dimensional body, and they will be moving irregularly. Unless some of them are damaged, counting on a stop simply because the attacker has been hit somewhere in, say, the chest would be akin to drawing on an inside straight.

Because he or she cannot see the critical internal targets; because he or she cannot take the time to try to assess where they might be; and because the target is moving and the defender must shoot quickly, the defender cannot realistically count on damaging them though marksmanship. The defender will be trained to shoot several shots quickly at, say, the upper chest area (or slightly behind it, if the attacker is coming around a car or gas pump at an angle), with the hope that some of the bullets do the job. The defender must count on luck, and the more controlled shots he or she can fire very quickly, the better his or her luck is likely to be. It's all a matter of probabilities.

Should an attack occur, the likelihood that there will be two or more attackers is at least as high as the likelihood that there will be only one. It is possible that stopping one will dissuade the others, but one cannot count on that.

I think that probably describes the likely potential threat in a self-defense situation rather accurately.

My approach toward risk mitigation has been to avoid questionable places; to train and practice; and to carry a firearm that I can access and shoot quickly, rapidly, and with control. My choice is more powerful than a .380. It carries 60% more ammunition than the 642 upon which I once relied.

[Model12Win]

Thanks guys, I'm learning a lot.

[Radny97]

OldMarksman I can give you a few more details about the two attacks. The home invasion was a man attempting to enter an apartment. He was impaired and angry yelling and he apparently thought the apartment was his and was trying to break down the door. The shooter was an older man who fired one shot through the door into the chest of the assailant, killing him at the scene. It was a 40 cal.
The carjacking was a young man on meth attempting to take the car of a 65 year old woman in a grocery store parking lot. A bystander intervened and pulled his compact 1911 style 45. He directed the assailant to stop from about 10 feet away. The assailant rushed him and one shot was fired to the chest. The assailant collapsed on the ground at the shooters feet and later died at the hospital. County attorney announced a few days later that there would be no charges in either case.
As to shooting better, I define that as shooting accurately and quickly. I shoot very well in double action from a revolver. I can draw and place 5 shots on a 8 inch plate at 7 yards in about four seconds with my LCR. I'm happy with that for self-defense. I can't pull that off with a compact 380 so I don't carry it.

[leadcounsel]

And for every 1-shot stop, there are dozens of average people who survived multiple direct point blank shots from handguns, shotguns, and rifles. 1-shot stops are attributed to nothing more than luck. Plain and simple. Few people have the ability and training to hit once. In fact, a 1-shot stop tells the story that the person is NOT trained because trained people will likely double tap faster than the person can collapse and die. I'm speculating, but one can infer they likely simply got very lucky.

I'm not counting on luck. I've seen plenty of shootings where the individual hit is able to keep fighting for some time.

Shooter attacks cop, and is fatally shot in the chest, but manages to keep dodging and weaving, and firing, and flees in his car and is later found dead slumped over the wheel. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1476110
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1476110

Police apparently hits driver multiple times at 5' distance, and driver is still able exit car present a handgun and shoot at least once before being disabled. It's fair to assume that the cop was using a high-performance hollow point ammo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMOF3gYwgo

Then again, also keep in mind that bullets shoot both ways, and 1-shot stops against YOU are possible. So it's important to end the fight in your favor as soon as possible and instants count.

Tragic police stop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn5vZRyJ-bc

Your best bet is to hit with greater number and potent bullets. You do this wiht higher capacity and better bullets/size/performance/design. This increases the chances, since it really is just a numbers game (assuming the averages).

[OldMarksman]

I can draw and place 5 shots on a 8 inch plate at 7 yards in about four seconds with my LCR. I'm happy with that for self-defense.

The 8 inch plate is fine, but strive for five shots in just a bit over one second at 3 to 5 yards.

[Radny97]

^^^^^^
That's sayin' somethin'
I don't know any guys in my idpa club that can pull that off and we have some guys who are shooting tier 3 matches.
I could probably pull off the shots in that time from low and ready but a draw too? No way.

[bamaranger]

Obviously, there's several variables here, not just caliber/load, but handgun type as well.

I think the "stopping power" of the two loads, is indeed about equal. I'm suspect of the .380 due to its low bullet weight, but all and all see both ctgs in the same light.

I find the .380 auto's, my .380 anyhow, a SIG230, much easier to shoot and am far more accurate and faster with it. The only modern .380 I've shot much is the Ruger LCP, which was for me hard to shoot well, due to its diminutive size. The semis all reload faster than a DA revolver. Capacity is a plus. And my SIG is plenty reliable.

I find the snub .38's, esp the old standby the 5-shot Chief , hard to shoot well much beyond 3 yds distance. Better grips help, but the sights are awful, even when my eyes were better.

In truth, these guns, for me, are compromises, when circumstances/dress, dictate that I simply cannot seem to have a bigger handgun aboard. Dropping one in a pocket is a simple act, and is deep concealment. But when I do so, I always feel a bit undergunned.

When I can holster carry , I get a bigger gun.

[skoro]

I have both calibers and have carried both.

I much prefer the 38+P for my purposes.

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Radny97:

I could probably pull off the shots in that time (5 shots in a little more than a second, 9 inch target) from low and ready but a draw too? No way.

Nor can I. I somehow completely missed "draw and".

Add the draw time. Try for a little over 2.5 seconds total from the stimulus, nominally and as a general objective. I would not get hung up on timed exercises, and I would not shoot at same target from the same place repeatedly.

The classic Tueller demo shows an attacker with a contact weapon moving about 21 feet, on average, in the time it takes for a defender to draw and fire once. That shot then occurs at point-blank range, and one hit is unlikely to stop him in time.

My point was that those who go to the range and shoot at a rate of about one shot per second should consider that an attacker can probably move at about 5 meters in that second.

I'm not a fan of the "shoot twice and assess" school of thought. Should one find that two shots did not prove sufficient, the attacker will have moved that much closer.

Many defensive shooting instructors generally train very rapid shooting--say, about 4 shots in a second after drawing, in at least some of their drills.

The most recent course I took called for lateral movement and drawing while moving.

The defender has to balance speed and precision. If one is shooting great groups, one is almost certainly firing too slowly for a close-range encounter with a charging attacker.

[TimSr]

And for every 1-shot stop, there are dozens of average people who survived multiple direct point blank shots from handguns, shotguns, and rifles.

"Survived" and "stopped" have two differnet meanings.

[boltomatic]

For self defense, I'd go with the smaller round. I've done a LOT of real research on the issue of "stopping power" and its role in civilian self defense and its pretty clear that a gun is a gun when it comes to self defense and what really matters is that the gun fires when you pull the trigger and you can put rounds where you want them to go under stress. Having more rounds in your mag gives you a bigger saftey margin.

That said, I prefer the smaller round because everyone can shoot more accuracy and faster when there is less recoil to deal with. For an expert marksman with experience shooting in life threatening situations, it might not matter, but for the 99% of us that carry for self defense, its a big difference.

[9x18_Walther]

"Survived" and "stopped" have two differnet meanings.

1986 FBI Miami shootout is a key example of this.

I believe the 9mm Winchester Silvertip caused a fatal wound. Fatal - eventually...

[DirtyHarold]

absolutely 9 rds of 380. I might even load the last 3-4 as some penetrators because if whatever I'm shooting at takes that many bullets it seems it needs something more serious.

I often come to the dilemma of carrying 7 380 hornady rounds or 5 speer gold dot 357 (out of a 3" too ). I feel like even if I miss/multiple assailants the sheer percussion and flame would make them realize that they are up against some serious [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] and think twice about their actions. It also doubles as a flashbang in anything but a large open space.

[849ACSO]

I would opt for the 5 rounds of .38. Here's why. As an LEO, I can tell you that MOST folks who have a CCW don't train. They carry, but they don't TRAIN for real world scenarios. By that, I don't mean go to the range and shoot 1000 rounds a month. That's marksmanship, not TRAINING.

I carry a 1911 at work, but if I have pants on, there's a 5 shot on my ankle and there has been for as long as I've been a policeman (22 years). That includes while I'm off. I have waded through water, snow, mud, and every other thing under the sun. It looks like it's been drug behind a pickup and used for a fence stretcher. It fires EVERY time I pull the trigger, regardless of it's last dose of maintenance.

Typically a gun fight will be an extension of something else (ie - a physical confrontation gone too far/gone wrong). With that, you're talking about arms length or a bit father. 10 yards would be a stretch, so accuracy really isn't a HUGE factor. Make no mistake, you still need to make good hits, but if you cant hit at 10 yards, a longer barrel won't help.

You would be surprised at how many times I have seen experienced police officers (who we force to TRAIN) experience total bewilderment when they have a malfunction. These are folks who TRAIN in malfunction drills and wounded officer drills, and still, there's full second or two of "oh s*it" when they hear click instead of bang THEN they remember their malfunction drill. A second or two is an ETERNITY when seconds actually matter.

The 5 shot (or ANY revolver for that fact) is simple to operate in that if it doesn't go off, simply pull the trigger again. Barring broken equipment or an empty gun, it will eventually go off if you keep squeezing. The 5 shot can't be disengaged from battery if you find yourself sticking the muzzle firmly between the first and second rib and pulling the trigger while someone is on top of you and you're fighting for your life. The 38 has superior ballistics than even the hottest .380. The 5 shot isn't prone to limp wristing, odd shooting positions, under powered/faulty ammo (not counting a catastrophic failure) or falling ill to dust bunnies and other abuse that a true carry gun is subjected to that would make a semi auto malfunction.

Everyone wants the latest and greatest semi auto pistol and want to stake their lives on it, but very few actually actually take the time NEEDED to train to that standard.

My semi auto duty pistol is my lifeline, but my 5 shot is my "I can count on it ALWAYS" gun.

[amd6547]

Been shooting a long time,man...and I've seen revolvers lock up twice.
One was a fresh box of factory 357 magnum ammo which came with a squib load...the primer pushed the bullet halfway into the forcing cone, and required a rod to push it back in order to open the cylinder.
The second one was this year, when a guy at my range had a bullet walk forward while shooting a Ruger LCR 38...the bullet projected beyond the face of the cylinder, preventing rotation.
There are no guarantees.
I like revolvers plenty, and often depend on a 3" gp100.
As far as the OP's poll, I didn't vote, since there was no option for "both".

[Andy Blozinski]

Bersa makes a double stack version of the Thunder, called the Thunder Plus. It's pretty much the same size, but packs 15 rounds. If I were going to get a Bersa, that's the one I'd get.

[JDBerg]

So reliability aside, which would you rather have on tap: 9 rounds of .380 or 5 rounds of .38 special?

Sorry, neither gun works for me, I'll take 124 gr. 9mm +P over .380, .357 Magnum Model 60 BUG over a 642.

[Radny97]

849ACSO -- yep that's how I feel. +1

[TimSr]

Quote:
"Survived" and "stopped" have two differnet meanings.

1986 FBI Miami shootout is a key example of this.

I believe the 9mm Winchester Silvertip caused a fatal wound. Fatal - eventually...

So is the far more typical "zero shot" stop or "the missed shots" stop.

[Doc Holliday 1950]

I agree with JDBerg.
Neither choice works for me. I'll carry my 357 mag GP100 with speed loader and feel very comfortable with this. A 125 grain HP 357 mag is quite sufficient
to handle "almost" anything that I'll encounter coming at me IMHO.
Doc

[OldMarksman]

Posted by 849ACSO:

The 5 shot (or ANY revolver for that fact) is simple to operate in that if it doesn't go off, simply pull the trigger again. Barring broken equipment or an empty gun...

"Empty gun" is the underlying subject of the tread.

Everyone wants the latest and greatest semi auto pistol and want to stake their lives on it, but very few actually actually take the time NEEDED to train to that standard.

If we want to introduce the subject of training, we really would ask whether anyone really believes that a five shot snub revolver is really a very good choice for a beginner.

They have terrible triggers, very short sight radii, very poor sights if you want to call them that.--and the light weight ones are not conducive to practice.

Anyone can make one go off, but putting four shots in less than a second into the upper chest area at five yards is something else.

[Radny97]

I wholeheartedly agree that a snubnose revolver is not a beginner gun. I can't think of a better way to scare someone off of the shooting sports and shooting in general than taking someone who's never shot a gun to the range and letting them shoot full house 357 mag out of a snubnose. It's not particularly pleasant unless you know what you're doing and know how to handle and control recoil. That said I love snubnose revolvers. In my personal opinion I think that they are more inherently accurate as a general set up than any mouse gun or pocket gun. (I know it's somewhat controversial to say that but that's my experience and opinion.) I think they are an excellent gun for self-defense for the more initiated, but not the uninitiated.