pen guns: Possible calibers?

simonrichter · September 10, 2015, 02:51 PM

When I was a teenager I had this book about spies in WWII and the cold war, I guess it's kind of a popular classic written by some ex-CIA director, with many pics and drawings. Anyway, apart from other weapons shown, especially the pen guns were quite drawing my curiosity. While most of them seemed to be .22lr (and still are?), there where also .25acp models mentioned (back then, I didn't know that .25acp was the same as 6,35mm...).

So are or were there any of these (useless but interesting) weapons in other calibers than the two mentioned?

Bill DeShivs · September 10, 2015, 04:35 PM

.38 S&W was used. I'm sure .32 calibers were available.

Skans · September 12, 2015, 12:48 PM

Stinger/Braverman pen guns came in the following calibers that I know of:

.177 hmr
.22lr
.22 magnum
.380acp

They even made a pen rifle, but I've never seen one of those in person.

James K · September 12, 2015, 02:45 PM

The idea of a "pen gun" (or a gun disguised as some other harmless object) has been around a long time and is mostly nonsense. The concept is fascinating to many spy story readers, and the gun conrtrol lobby is always ranting against "sneak guns" that can get past a police search, but I know of no use of such gadgets by either spies or criminals.

FWIW, real spies almost never carry guns; a person found carrying any gun in most countries would be in big trouble.

Jim

Bill DeShivs · September 12, 2015, 02:55 PM

Jim- I have seen reference to WW2 OSS pen guns.

James K · September 12, 2015, 03:15 PM

So have I, mainly fiction. I would like to see some real evidence that any were ever issued or used. I have heard rumors (as the old saying goes) that few real spies looked like Sean Connery or carried guns while "at work."

I once mentioned to a friend that a TV show had its super spy floating down the Danube "into the heart of Bucharest." He is Romanian and we were amused because Bucharest (Romania) is 70 miles or so from the Danube; the TV writer was thinkng of Budapest (Hungary). My friend said that the last time he had been in Romania before the Iron Curtain fell apart, he had "snuck" into the country on an Aeroflot flight from Moscow, with papers identifying him as an employee of the Agriculture Ministry who had been studying Russian crop growing techniques. His real employer was someone else.

Jim

Doc TH · September 12, 2015, 07:56 PM

In WWII "Spies" and OSS agents were different species.
I would guess that in today's world most foreign-based CIA agents are armed. They certainly were in Vietnam, and there was a recent case of a CIA agent in Pakistan who shot an assailant.

745SW · September 12, 2015, 10:06 PM

I've handled one many moons ago. It's much heavier than a normal pen. This was among familiars, otherwise I've never saw one in public.

willr · September 13, 2015, 01:15 AM

In regard to disguised pistols, I have a memory of one. This was in a movie, I think a Sherlock Holmes, it was in the 30s (shows my age) which showed a pistol disguised as the handle of an umbrella. In order to aim it, it was necessary to point the umbrella. My recollection is that the trigger folded up under the barrel.
Any one else with a similar memory?
willr

Pond, James Pond · September 13, 2015, 04:42 AM

Can I get a 12ga board-marker?

Carmady · September 13, 2015, 07:14 AM

"Any one else with a similar memory?"

As far as spy stuff goes, for me, nothing tops "the ol' fake hands on the fire escape trick."

James K · September 14, 2015, 09:50 PM

The KGB certainly used a lethal umbrella at least once, but it was not a firearm. It was used to inject a poisoned ball-shaped pellet into a Soviet defector in London.

As to CIA agents being armed, of course they have been, but few CIA agents are spies. In Afghanistan they were a clandestine military force. In other places they were "controllers" who ran agents, usually natives of the country involved, and those also did not usually carry guns unless it was part of their cover identity.

But a spy gathers intelligence; he or she does not run around blowing things up or shooting enemy soldiers. Probably the most successful espionage ring that worked against the U.S. was that run by the Rosenbergs. AFAIK, neither of the husband-wife team carried a gun or even owned one.

Jim

tony pasley · September 14, 2015, 10:02 PM

I have held and shot a 7.65 umbrella made in England, I have shot a .32 ca. squeezer from W.W.I., a 410 cane, and have seen a 4 shot .22 cal. cell phone. Yes they are rare but they are out there.

James K · September 15, 2015, 12:58 PM

An umbrella might have a chance of getting by a search and so might a cell phone. But I doubt the pen guns I have seen would get by even a casual search. And the cell phone gun couldn't get by the most basic check - "turn it on".

The problem with spy guns is that even if a spy does manage to get a "sneak gun" past a search, what good is it? The KGB's lethal umbrella was a silent assassination weapon, but a gun would make noise and call attention to itself; if used with a silencer, it would be even more bulky and hard to conceal.

Exotic? Interesting? Sure, but not very practical for a real spy.

Jim

September 10, 2015, 02:51 PM	#1
simonrichter Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2011 Location: Austria Posts: 757	pen guns: Possible calibers? When I was a teenager I had this book about spies in WWII and the cold war, I guess it's kind of a popular classic written by some ex-CIA director, with many pics and drawings. Anyway, apart from other weapons shown, especially the pen guns were quite drawing my curiosity. While most of them seemed to be .22lr (and still are?), there where also .25acp models mentioned (back then, I didn't know that .25acp was the same as 6,35mm...). So are or were there any of these (useless but interesting) weapons in other calibers than the two mentioned? __________________ "Get off of my lawn!" Walt Kowalski . ISSC PAR .223

September 10, 2015, 04:35 PM	#2
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,979	.38 S&W was used. I'm sure .32 calibers were available. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

September 12, 2015, 02:55 PM	#5
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,979	Jim- I have seen reference to WW2 OSS pen guns. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

September 13, 2015, 04:42 AM	#10
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Can I get a 12ga board-marker? __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

September 14, 2015, 10:02 PM	#13
tony pasley Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2006 Location: western north carolina Posts: 1,641	I have held and shot a 7.65 umbrella made in England, I have shot a .32 ca. squeezer from W.W.I., a 410 cane, and have seen a 4 shot .22 cal. cell phone. Yes they are rare but they are out there. __________________ Every day Congress is in session we lose a little bit more of our Liberty.

September 12, 2015, 12:48 PM	#3
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Stinger/Braverman pen guns came in the following calibers that I know of: .177 hmr .22lr .22 magnum .380acp They even made a pen rifle, but I've never seen one of those in person.

September 12, 2015, 02:45 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The idea of a "pen gun" (or a gun disguised as some other harmless object) has been around a long time and is mostly nonsense. The concept is fascinating to many spy story readers, and the gun conrtrol lobby is always ranting against "sneak guns" that can get past a police search, but I know of no use of such gadgets by either spies or criminals. FWIW, real spies almost never carry guns; a person found carrying any gun in most countries would be in big trouble. Jim

September 12, 2015, 03:15 PM	#6
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	So have I, mainly fiction. I would like to see some real evidence that any were ever issued or used. I have heard rumors (as the old saying goes) that few real spies looked like Sean Connery or carried guns while "at work." I once mentioned to a friend that a TV show had its super spy floating down the Danube "into the heart of Bucharest." He is Romanian and we were amused because Bucharest (Romania) is 70 miles or so from the Danube; the TV writer was thinkng of Budapest (Hungary). My friend said that the last time he had been in Romania before the Iron Curtain fell apart, he had "snuck" into the country on an Aeroflot flight from Moscow, with papers identifying him as an employee of the Agriculture Ministry who had been studying Russian crop growing techniques. His real employer was someone else. Jim

September 12, 2015, 07:56 PM	#7
Doc TH Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Posts: 633	In WWII "Spies" and OSS agents were different species. I would guess that in today's world most foreign-based CIA agents are armed. They certainly were in Vietnam, and there was a recent case of a CIA agent in Pakistan who shot an assailant.

September 12, 2015, 10:06 PM	#8
745SW Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2011 Location: California Posts: 776	I've handled one many moons ago. It's much heavier than a normal pen. This was among familiars, otherwise I've never saw one in public.

September 13, 2015, 01:15 AM	#9
willr Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 2006 Posts: 356	In regard to disguised pistols, I have a memory of one. This was in a movie, I think a Sherlock Holmes, it was in the 30s (shows my age) which showed a pistol disguised as the handle of an umbrella. In order to aim it, it was necessary to point the umbrella. My recollection is that the trigger folded up under the barrel. Any one else with a similar memory? willr

September 13, 2015, 07:14 AM	#11
Carmady Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 2013 Location: on the lam Posts: 1,735	"Any one else with a similar memory?" As far as spy stuff goes, for me, nothing tops "the ol' fake hands on the fire escape trick."

September 14, 2015, 09:50 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The KGB certainly used a lethal umbrella at least once, but it was not a firearm. It was used to inject a poisoned ball-shaped pellet into a Soviet defector in London. As to CIA agents being armed, of course they have been, but few CIA agents are spies. In Afghanistan they were a clandestine military force. In other places they were "controllers" who ran agents, usually natives of the country involved, and those also did not usually carry guns unless it was part of their cover identity. But a spy gathers intelligence; he or she does not run around blowing things up or shooting enemy soldiers. Probably the most successful espionage ring that worked against the U.S. was that run by the Rosenbergs. AFAIK, neither of the husband-wife team carried a gun or even owned one. Jim

September 15, 2015, 12:58 PM	#14
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	An umbrella might have a chance of getting by a search and so might a cell phone. But I doubt the pen guns I have seen would get by even a casual search. And the cell phone gun couldn't get by the most basic check - "turn it on". The problem with spy guns is that even if a spy does manage to get a "sneak gun" past a search, what good is it? The KGB's lethal umbrella was a silent assassination weapon, but a gun would make noise and call attention to itself; if used with a silencer, it would be even more bulky and hard to conceal. Exotic? Interesting? Sure, but not very practical for a real spy. Jim

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