FFL who abused your held gun. What to do? - Page 2

ninjarealist · December 3, 2014, 11:55 PM

@RodTheWrench Well I'm also a kid (26, he couldn't have been that much younger than me) and I know well enough not to dry fire other people's guns without permission, so I guess that's why I gave him the benefit of the doubt. But sadly, it seems like you might be right about not trusting kids. I see now why older people at gun shows are sometimes leery of me when I express interest in their firearms.

RodTheWrench · December 4, 2014, 12:01 AM

BTDT buddy! I was the kid too, until I turned into an old fart. Still wondering how that happened so quickly...

riflemen · December 4, 2014, 12:19 AM

ninja that does suck, as a rule if I handle a gun I don't own or I am not buying I will hold it feel how tight it is as well as I can with out racking the slide or pulling the trigger, its not my gun why would I do that?

Dragline, you are right, where in mass are you located? I got lucky, I worked hard, built a good business and a bigger company came in and paid me more than I ever thought it would be worth when I started it, plus I accumulated a lot of rental property, that now just pays me to own it every month.

You can actually be a millionaire in 15 years if you do it correctly, you buy a 2 family house and a 3 family house, fixer uppers, say $60K down with good credit, 15 year mortgages, now collect the 4 rents and live in the other apartment, depending on your purchase price and rental value it shouldn't take more than 5 years to pay them 2 houses off, now with the new loan "guidelines" its hard to incorporate your rental income into a line of credit, but with properties that are paid off it is much easier, so NOW, your 2 houses are OWNED, and you can get some serious money out of the banks, buy more multi families as many as you can and rent them, again 5 years, living like a hermit working your regular job doing maintenance and collecting rents in any spare time you have, and dumping profits back onto them 15 yr mortgages, you could own 7-10 houses in say 12 years, now figure even if you only have 15 rental incomes at 800 each, thats $12,000 per month!!! figure 40 percent of that for taxes, insurance, upkeep ect and you can be making $6000-7200 a month without leaving your house!!! OR cash out when the market is good {not the smartest move since you keep the houses for x amount of time you can still own them and have all that money}...

Anyway, I can talk about that stuff all day, I have a very healthy amount of high end rental property {I sold all my $1200- neighborhood stuff and kept the cream}, so every month my real estate company makes an obscene deposit into my bank account...

ANYONE CAN DO THAT, by the way, good credit with a bit of know how and some down payment money, you can be a millionaire in 10 years or so!!! I used to take care of everything myself, collecting rents, doing the books, advertising, upkeep and repairs, interviewing tenants, ect, now I don't touch much at all, it runs itself.. The key for me was running my other business the entire time, so if the realestate was rocky {I had 9 apartments with 4 empty for 3 months because of the 100 year floods, I learned the hard way about flood zones and insurance!!!} but it wasnt deadly for me because I had my original income through them times, if that flood never happened I wouldnt have any horror stories because besides that {only cost me about 175K at the time} the rest of the time, the business was great... Anyone ever interested in doing it and needs advice, pm me, I love to get people on that track, any advice I can give is for free

Dragline45 · December 4, 2014, 12:44 AM

Don't want to hijack the thread riflemen so I sent you a pm.

AustinTX · December 4, 2014, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Sorry, but I've got too much volume to do that. The guns get opened, checked, and logged in as soon as possible after they arrive.

Then again, I'm very careful with them. They're not my property.

That's understandable, given your volume, but I would never use a receiving dealer where that was the case. My receiving dealer gets my business because, among other things, my packages are untouched when I arrive to pick up my new guns.

Even if you're very careful, it's possible that you could employ someone who would behave in a knuckleheaded fashion with someone else's property (assuming you're not a one-man operation).

AustinTX · December 4, 2014, 01:14 AM

Quote:

And wouldn't shops like to avoid this scenario anyway? Pretty hard to have your guys accused of manhandling a gun if it's still in the box. I'd make sure it was closed and taped up again for the waiting period if it were MY store - take the monkey factor completely out of the equation.

That's precisely my dealer's position.

**Tom Servo** · December 4, 2014, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Seriously, why must you open the box before the customer gets there? It's not like you're not going to catch the wrong serial-numbered guns by waiting, is it? That way, you BOTH get to see it at the same time.

Sure, but that guy's going to wait until midday Saturday, when I'm knee-deep in customers. He's going demand that I drop everything to check his gun in right now goshdarnit, and he's going to insist I stand there for twenty minutes while he goes over it with white gloves and a magnifying glass.

That is, if he even shows up. Maybe he'll be here next Monday. Or Thursday.

Yeah, I have seen a [insert holy grail gun] before. No, I'm not going to write an affidavit on company letterhead claiming it's 90% instead of the 95% condition the Gunbroker auction said it was. No, I'm not going to intervene with the seller to...can I please get back to people who want to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars?

For twenty or thirty bucks, it's unfair to expect that. Unfortunately, every customer I've ever had who insists on waiting until he gets here has been that guy.

adrian44 · December 4, 2014, 04:44 AM

Interesting posts here. I am especially shocked by the guy who dry fired the gun as you filled the paperwork. The first thing my dad taught me as a kid when I first entered a gunshop was to never touch anything without permission, and to always ask for another permission to dry fire a gun. I would expect the same curtsey from someone who works in the shop.

I'm still so upset I actually woke up just after midnight after barely sleeping for 3 hours. I wish there was an independent database where people in a certain city can find a list of all FFL transfer dealers in the area WITH reviews and ratings by customers.

I also feel that as a law abiding citizen who has never committed a crime there should be a way to receive a gun directly from the selling shop. Even if only CCW holders could do that. After all we were thoroughly vetted to obtain that permit and we should have the ability to skip this time and money wasting transfer thing with the heartache that comes with it. Not even going to talk about the fact that in the age of computer networks it's not right for anyone to keep getting the same conditional non-approval time after time after time then two or three days later gets told that they now know he's not the bad guy. I put down my SSN even though I don't like that for a positive identification but it still doesn't work.

jasmith85 · December 4, 2014, 08:30 AM

I have two FFLs that I will go through when I buy online and they both open the box when it comes in. Heck, neither of them call to tell me it has arrived until they have it logged in, and I have no problem with this. The primary FFL that I use is actually a friend of mine and I wouldn't have a problem if he tried the guns out. I don't buy guns unless I intend for them to be fired anyway. The second FFL I just recently started using because my primary FFL is currently in the Middle East, but I trust him to handle my guns. I'd probably tell him he can try them out if he asked.

Skans · December 4, 2014, 08:36 AM

Addressing the OP's question. The OP picked the receiving FFL, so the OP is stuck with the damage. OP might consider filing a small claims lawsuit against the receiving FFL for damaging his gun. Tough case, tough to prove fault, and tough to quantify your damages.

The bottom line - whenever you order stuff online, guns or otherwise, damage to the product is one of the risks we purchasers assume since we as individuals are brokering the transaction and employing others to assist us in completing it. You try to reduce the risk as much as possible by choosing responsible FFL's. Of course, responsible FFL's who don't have idiot employees, don't let idiot employees touch other peoples stuff and don't themselves fondle your merchandise usually come at a higher price.

riflemen · December 4, 2014, 08:58 AM

Trust is the biggest factor here, if my ffl had to log each gun in before I got there, then I would be fine with it, I don't like the idea that now I wouldn't have a leg to stand on if there was something missing or damaged, but it is what it is. The fact remains the same, NONE of the FFL's here open your boxes, very rarely will they open a package...

If you use a shop that does and you are fine with it, then it is what it is..

I spoke with my FFL this morning, he called me at 8am to let me know one of my consignment guns was sold last night, and while I had him on the phone I asked him if it was a law that FFL's had to log the guns in, and he said {hes owned this shop since the early 80's} that if he doesn't open the package he doesn't have to log it in, if he opens the package he has to log it in, he keeps all the boxes in the vault as a courtesy and to ensure nothing gets tampered with after it arrives, but that is not even required of him!!! After receiving them he can stack them up behind the counter if he wanted to...

I brought up the OP's issue with having to wait for the release and he said that the best way to deal with something like that is to put the gun in a solid case with a zip tie or pad lock on the handle, then store it until its eligible for transfer... Which makes sense to me...

The biggest issue is to trust your ffl, its their house and their rules, but you are the customer, if before doing the transfer you ask them to give you a call and not open the box until you arrive and they say no, move on... I know transfers are only $20-$35 BUT for example the FFL I just talked to, did over $35K in transfers this year and there is a month left!!!!

He has it down to a science so it goes really smooth, he has them ship it with your name on the package, att:buyer under his business name, he write your phone number in big numbers on your ppw, when they arrive he gets your ppw, attaches it to the box and gives you a quick call, he texts me, but calls most guys unless they are regulars. Then he puts the boxes in the vault, you arrive he goes and gets your box, puts it on a table already setup for inspection, has a couple mats, chairs, and padded vises, as well as rags and pens, he x's where you have to sign, he has you read him the serial number and thats it, hands you your ppw and you can take your gun away, he has never touched, sometimes he will read the number himself, I have seen him do that but its rare...

He also loves cooper, blazer, sako, ect small caliber bolt guns, and I buy a lot of them so he will handle some off my guns when I buy something out of the shop, but on a personal level not professional, he wants to feel the gun and I have no issue with that, I know them well enough if they had to open my boxes I wouldn't care, and as I said before that has happened...

If you are going to a shop where they have some young kids working behind the counter and you buy something like a full auto mp5 that a young kid will not be able to resist playing with, than you may want to track your package and be there when it arrives, or pay for saturday delivery, if you don't trust your gun is safe...

bedbugbilly · December 4, 2014, 09:22 AM

Lots of discussion and I certainly can't add anything other than this . . .

As someone who was in business for many years . . . . I always felt my customers, regardless of who much they purchased . . were my bread and butter and what kept me going. My job, or that of my employees were to give the best service as possible to those customers as you wanted them to keep "coming back". If an employee didn't conform to those practices and goals . . they were out the door and gone.

I hope the shop owner steps up and makes this "right" for you. If it was me, the employee would get their one and only warning and the "making it right" would be out of their paycheck. If not, they'd be gone for good. As the shop owner, if they play with something that doesn't belong to me (the shop owner) then I'd have to consider that they would "play" with my merchandise that I had for sale as well when I was out of the shop.

But then again, I'm old and from a time when a business owner had the final say . . regardless, the shop owner needs to step up to the plate and make it right.

riflemen · December 4, 2014, 09:42 AM

Billy, is right, without customers you don't have a business you have a gun collection...

I hope the company makes good for it, as far as charging the employees around here they don't allow you to do that, I had an employee tip one of my $60K Mercedez service vans on its side, using it after hours {they take the vans home for night calls} he went to a barn fire party and when leaving put the left tires in a drainage ditch tipping the van on its side, then didn't shut the engine, diesel engine was blown up, body was destroyed, stock inside the van was damaged and some stolen because he didn't tell me about it until the next morning... My insurance company only paid what the van was worth and since as soon as you take a commercial vehicle off the new car lot, its worth about half of what you paid, I lost about $25K total, nothing I could do about it, he was on the clock when it happened {kind of, he was on call}. Needless to say it was his last day... Then he tried to collect workmens compensation because he said in injured his back in the accident, that didn't happen...

**Tom Servo** · December 4, 2014, 10:17 AM

Quote:

if he doesn't open the package he doesn't have to log it in, if he opens the package he has to log it in, he keeps all the boxes in the vault as a courtesy and to ensure nothing gets tampered with after it arrives, but that is not even required of him!

That is untrue. Dealers are required to log the gun in by the close of business the day following receipt. Whether or not they've opened the box is irrelevant.

**Mike Irwin** · December 4, 2014, 11:49 AM

"Seriously, why must you open the box before the customer gets there? It's not like you're not going to catch the wrong serial-numbered guns by waiting, is it?"

From BATFE:

"Generally, licensees have to enter the acquisition or purchase of a firearm by the close of the next business day after the acquisition or purchase and shall record sales or other dispositions within 7 days.

However, if commercial records containing the required information are available for inspection and are separate from other commercial documents, dealers have 7 days from the time of receipt to record the receipt in the “bound book.”

If a disposition is made before the acquisition has been entered in the “bound book,&rdquo the acquisition entry must be made at the same time as the disposition entry.

[27 CFR 478.125]"

Every gunshop I've ever dealt with, including those in which I've worked, have logged ALL firearms on the day in which they are received.

Given BATFE's prediliction to find and magnify honest errors into major felonies, it's a dealer's best way to protect himself.

Yes, BATFE says that you can use the paperwork that accompanies the gun to do the logging, but as others have noted, errors happen, and when you have a BATFE agent standing in front of you trying to turn that kind of honest error into a major felony, it makes you rethink your logging procedures.

I worked in a large gunshop in Northern Virginia for a couple of years. One of our largest wholesale suppliers had a bad habit of sending the correct model gun, but often the serial numbers on the invoices didn't come even remotely close to what was on the gun.

None of us at the shop were interested in getting caught up in a BATFE hootenanny because the wholesaler's inventory control practices sucked.

We'd cross check the invoices with the guns that we had ordered, write the correct serial number on the invoice, and fax it back to the wholesaler so that they would hopefully get their systems straight.

Simply put, if you don't trust your dealer enough to open your gun and do his due dilligence in logging it, why are you even shipping your gun to him in the first place?

**Mike Irwin** · December 4, 2014, 11:52 AM

"he said {hes owned this shop since the early 80's} that if he doesn't open the package he doesn't have to log it in, if he opens the package he has to log it in, he keeps all the boxes in the vault as a courtesy and to ensure nothing gets tampered with after it arrives, but that is not even required of him!!!"

Wow.

Your FFL needs to take a remedial course in how not to violate the law and get caught up in a BATFE hootenanny because he is 100% WRONG.

If a dealer receives a firearm from any source with the intention of transferring it, either via sale or simple pass-through transfer, he MUST, BY LAW, log the gun in his bound book.

TailGator · December 4, 2014, 12:08 PM

Lots of people on here know the laws and rules better than me, and I understand that what is fair and what is legal aren't always the same, but if the seller dictated what receiving FFL I used I would feel like the seller was at least partly responsible for their performance and the resulting damage to the gun. I wouldn't have any problem talking to the seller about the results of the seller's decision to make me use a different FFL than the one I have learned to trust.

**Frank Ettin** · December 4, 2014, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riflemen

...The gun shops should not open your package, with the exception of the above incident that I described I have NEVER had another shop open one of my packages, I open them hand them the FFL and Paperwork, read them the serial number, sign the ppw and leave with my gun...

Quote:

Originally Posted by riflemen

...ANYWAY, like I said, opening is not the "norm", the shops around here DO NOT do it, it is very rare, .... But besides that our guys wont open them, I deal with multiple shops...

Do you realize that you're suggesting that those shops are likely violating federal law, and they they could lose their licenses for doing what you're saying they're doing? See 27 CFR 478.125(e), emphasis added:

Quote:

(e) Firearms receipt and disposition by dealers.

Except as provided in § 478.124a with respect to alternate records for the receipt and disposition of firearms by dealers, each licensed dealer shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms. ... The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a firearm shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm....

With regard to the exceptions noted, 27 CFR 478.124a applies only to an FFL who handles not more than 50 transfers in a 12 month period. And 27 CFR 478.125(g) applies when an FFL has a commercial record of the firearm received and that record includes all the information required to be maintained in the bound book.

A commercial record could be an invoice, a packing list, a bill of lading, or something similar, but to allow the delay of entry of acquisition, that record must include:

Quote:

...the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm....

Therefore, any FFL who handles more than 50 firearm transactions in a year who receives a package containing a gun, if the only information apparent without opening that package is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by riflemen

to: ABC Gun Shoppe'
Attention:YOUR NAME
123 ABC Way
NY, NY 10458

must open the package no later than the close of the business day next following receipt in order to be able to comply with 27 CFR 478.125.

AustinTX · December 4, 2014, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Simply put, if you don't trust your dealer enough to open your gun and do his due dilligence in logging it, why are you even shipping your gun to him in the first place?

Because while I know and trust some FFLs on a personal level in my area, I can't account for the behavior of their potentially knuckleheaded employees -- and, not being omnipresent babysitters, neither can they.

Thus, I appreciate an FFL with a policy that transferees' packages will remain unopened for as long as legally possible so that I can get to the shop and open them myself. Since I don't let my guns lie around his shop, that invariably means that the packages are unopened when I come to pick up the guns.

I buy plenty of guns that I will shoot, but I also buy unfired collectibles that have never had their cylinder turned or their slide racked, and I very reasonably do not want some nitwit employee of his knocking hundreds of dollars or more of value off of what I'm buying because he can't keep his hands off of someone else's property when he's not under direct supervision and observation.

**Mike Irwin** · December 4, 2014, 12:28 PM

"Because while I know and trust some FFLs on a personal level in my area, I can't account for the behavior of their potentially knuckleheaded employees -- and, not being omnipresent babysitters, neither can they. "

On the contrary. It's the owner's responsibility to set expectations and parameters for their employees. If employees require babysitting, then they aren't responsible enough to work in that shop.

If your FFL isn't setting expectations and parameters for their employees, including the handling of customer firearms, I again ask, why are you trusting that shop with your business?

Oh, and I wish I had a dime for every time I called a customer whose firearm had arrived at the shop and was told "I'll be there this evening/tomorrow/X day" only to have them come in days or even weeks later.

If there's one thing I learned while working at gunshops, it's that about 95% of customers never make it in when they say they're going to.

AustinTX · December 4, 2014, 01:13 PM

Quote:

On the contrary. It's the owner's responsibility to set expectations and parameters for their employees. If employees require babysitting, then they aren't responsible enough to work in that shop.

If your FFL isn't setting expectations and parameters for their employees, including the handling of customer firearms, I again ask, why are you trusting that shop with your business?

I never said that it wasn't the owner's responsibility to set expectations and parameters for their employees. What I'm saying is that it's not possible to guarantee anyone else's behavior, even if you subjected them to assiduous evaluation prior to hiring them.

Have you ever had to fire someone? More to the point, have you ever had to fire someone who seemed like a very responsible, capable candidate for employment after a thorough evaluation? That is my point. People are not robots. They behave in ways that defy prediction. And I'm not interested in absorbing the potential costs that may flow from that unpredictability. To the extent that there are measures in place to help me avoid absorbing such costs in this context -- such as a policy that transferees' packages will remain unopened for as long as legally possible -- I will be more inclined to conduct transfers through that particular shop.

Quote:

Oh, and I wish I had a dime for every time I called a customer whose firearm had arrived at the shop and was told "I'll be there this evening/tomorrow/X day" only to have them come in days or even weeks later.

If there's one thing I learned while working at gunshops, it's that about 95% of customers never make it in when they say they're going to.

Well, that's not me, and I never argued that those people should get any special treatment. I said I appreciate a shop that will leave the package unopened as long as legally possible (and logistically reasonable). If they need to open the package near the end of the next business day to comply with their obligations, I never said I had any problem with that. If the transferee can't make it in promptly, that's obviously the transferee's problem.

carguychris · December 4, 2014, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

With regard to the exceptions noted, 27 CFR 478.124a applies only to an FFL who handles not more than 50 transfers in a 12 month period.

FWIW although this is a bit of a sidetrack... the ATF recently voided 27 CFR 478.124a effective October 3, 2014, in order to eliminate the "Low Volume" Form 4473(LV), simply because almost no FFL's were using it.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2014...2014-18392.pdf

I only stumbled upon this because I was curious what a 4473(LV) looked like!

**Frank Ettin** · December 4, 2014, 02:12 PM

Quote:

FWIW although this is a bit of a sidetrack... the ATF recently voided 27 CFR 478.124a effective October 3, 2014,...

Well so much for 478.124a.

Thanks, Chris.

Theohazard · December 4, 2014, 02:28 PM

You can tell the people in this thread who have never worked in a gun shop and have never had to face scrutiny from the ATF. You can also tell the people who have never had to run a small business and cut costs by streamlining certain services to be as efficient as possible.

We get guns shipped to our store and we log them in, just like we're supposed to. The only way to ensure that you're logging them in correctly is to read the serial number straight off the gun itself. Anyone who has worked in a gun shop knows that using the box or invoice to record the serial number in the bound book or the 4473 is a VERY bad idea. Anybody that doesn't log the gun in by reading the serial number off the gun itself is making a VERY bad mistake.

As for the people who expect the shop to wait to the last second to log the gun in so the customer can come in and open it: Obviously you've never been involved in trying to run a small business. It would add many more man-hours of work to keep track of each gun and how long it had been in the store un-logged-in, and then wait for the costumer to come pick it up, hoping they'll make it before the deadline. Then when the customer did come in, the specific employees who can log guns in (usually only a few) would have to stop what they're doing and log the gun in. You'd also have to have more storage space because there would be separate areas for logged-in guns and un-logged-in guns. Add in the fact that most customers don't come in when they say they're coming in, and you have a MUCH more complicated, expensive, and time-consuming business practice.

It makes MUCH more sense to have the shipping and receiving people open the box, log it in, and then close it back up and set it aside. Then any employee can deliver the gun when the customer comes in. And if something happens and a rogue employee messes up a customer's gun, then the shop should handle the repair or replacement costs, but that will still be cheaper for the store than having a complicated system where they don't log the guns in right away.

AustinTX · December 4, 2014, 02:44 PM

Quote:

You can tell the people in this thread who have never worked in a gun shop and have never had to face scrutiny from the ATF. You can also tell the people who have never had to run a small business and cut costs by streamlining certain services to be as efficient as possible.

You make far too many unfounded assumptions.

I conceded at the outset that this may well be logistically unreasonable for a high-volume shop (in response to Tom Servo's post).

I happen to have found a shop where this was the existing policy. My FFL deals in very high-dollar weapons, from collectible handguns to Class 3 weapons, and does not have to manage the kind of volume and flow of customers that an all-purpose LGS does. I didn't ask him for special treatment. This is the way he conducts his business, as he prefers not to incur anyone's suspicion or deal with the attendant drama if the gun doesn't arrive in the condition they expected, and the nature of his business makes implementing this policy logistically feasible. Because his customers appreciate this, he has likely calculated that this is a boost to his business, not a detriment.

You should avoid extrapolating from your own particular experience to form assumptions about what works or does not work for all other business, and you should avoid assuming that your particular set of experiences allows you such piercing insight into what anyone else here has or has not done. Evidently this policy would have been a nightmare where you worked. That doesn't mean that would be the case everywhere else.

December 4, 2014, 12:01 AM	#27
RodTheWrench Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2013 Location: Utah Posts: 365	BTDT buddy! I was the kid too, until I turned into an old fart. Still wondering how that happened so quickly... __________________ "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." - Han Solo

December 4, 2014, 09:22 AM	#37
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	Lots of discussion and I certainly can't add anything other than this . . . As someone who was in business for many years . . . . I always felt my customers, regardless of who much they purchased . . were my bread and butter and what kept me going. My job, or that of my employees were to give the best service as possible to those customers as you wanted them to keep "coming back". If an employee didn't conform to those practices and goals . . they were out the door and gone. I hope the shop owner steps up and makes this "right" for you. If it was me, the employee would get their one and only warning and the "making it right" would be out of their paycheck. If not, they'd be gone for good. As the shop owner, if they play with something that doesn't belong to me (the shop owner) then I'd have to consider that they would "play" with my merchandise that I had for sale as well when I was out of the shop. But then again, I'm old and from a time when a business owner had the final say . . regardless, the shop owner needs to step up to the plate and make it right. __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

December 4, 2014, 11:49 AM	#40
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	"Seriously, why must you open the box before the customer gets there? It's not like you're not going to catch the wrong serial-numbered guns by waiting, is it?" From BATFE: "Generally, licensees have to enter the acquisition or purchase of a firearm by the close of the next business day after the acquisition or purchase and shall record sales or other dispositions within 7 days. However, if commercial records containing the required information are available for inspection and are separate from other commercial documents, dealers have 7 days from the time of receipt to record the receipt in the “bound book.” If a disposition is made before the acquisition has been entered in the “bound book,&rdquo the acquisition entry must be made at the same time as the disposition entry. [27 CFR 478.125]" Every gunshop I've ever dealt with, including those in which I've worked, have logged ALL firearms on the day in which they are received. Given BATFE's prediliction to find and magnify honest errors into major felonies, it's a dealer's best way to protect himself. Yes, BATFE says that you can use the paperwork that accompanies the gun to do the logging, but as others have noted, errors happen, and when you have a BATFE agent standing in front of you trying to turn that kind of honest error into a major felony, it makes you rethink your logging procedures. I worked in a large gunshop in Northern Virginia for a couple of years. One of our largest wholesale suppliers had a bad habit of sending the correct model gun, but often the serial numbers on the invoices didn't come even remotely close to what was on the gun. None of us at the shop were interested in getting caught up in a BATFE hootenanny because the wholesaler's inventory control practices sucked. We'd cross check the invoices with the guns that we had ordered, write the correct serial number on the invoice, and fax it back to the wholesaler so that they would hopefully get their systems straight. Simply put, if you don't trust your dealer enough to open your gun and do his due dilligence in logging it, why are you even shipping your gun to him in the first place? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 4, 2014, 11:52 AM	#41
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	"he said {hes owned this shop since the early 80's} that if he doesn't open the package he doesn't have to log it in, if he opens the package he has to log it in, he keeps all the boxes in the vault as a courtesy and to ensure nothing gets tampered with after it arrives, but that is not even required of him!!!" Wow. Your FFL needs to take a remedial course in how not to violate the law and get caught up in a BATFE hootenanny because he is 100% WRONG. If a dealer receives a firearm from any source with the intention of transferring it, either via sale or simple pass-through transfer, he MUST, BY LAW, log the gun in his bound book. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 4, 2014, 12:28 PM	#45
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	"Because while I know and trust some FFLs on a personal level in my area, I can't account for the behavior of their potentially knuckleheaded employees -- and, not being omnipresent babysitters, neither can they. " On the contrary. It's the owner's responsibility to set expectations and parameters for their employees. If employees require babysitting, then they aren't responsible enough to work in that shop. If your FFL isn't setting expectations and parameters for their employees, including the handling of customer firearms, I again ask, why are you trusting that shop with your business? Oh, and I wish I had a dime for every time I called a customer whose firearm had arrived at the shop and was told "I'll be there this evening/tomorrow/X day" only to have them come in days or even weeks later. If there's one thing I learned while working at gunshops, it's that about 95% of customers never make it in when they say they're going to. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 3, 2014, 11:55 PM	#26
ninjarealist Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2014 Posts: 213	@RodTheWrench Well I'm also a kid (26, he couldn't have been that much younger than me) and I know well enough not to dry fire other people's guns without permission, so I guess that's why I gave him the benefit of the doubt. But sadly, it seems like you might be right about not trusting kids. I see now why older people at gun shows are sometimes leery of me when I express interest in their firearms.

December 4, 2014, 12:19 AM	#28
riflemen Junior member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 259	ninja that does suck, as a rule if I handle a gun I don't own or I am not buying I will hold it feel how tight it is as well as I can with out racking the slide or pulling the trigger, its not my gun why would I do that? Dragline, you are right, where in mass are you located? I got lucky, I worked hard, built a good business and a bigger company came in and paid me more than I ever thought it would be worth when I started it, plus I accumulated a lot of rental property, that now just pays me to own it every month. You can actually be a millionaire in 15 years if you do it correctly, you buy a 2 family house and a 3 family house, fixer uppers, say $60K down with good credit, 15 year mortgages, now collect the 4 rents and live in the other apartment, depending on your purchase price and rental value it shouldn't take more than 5 years to pay them 2 houses off, now with the new loan "guidelines" its hard to incorporate your rental income into a line of credit, but with properties that are paid off it is much easier, so NOW, your 2 houses are OWNED, and you can get some serious money out of the banks, buy more multi families as many as you can and rent them, again 5 years, living like a hermit working your regular job doing maintenance and collecting rents in any spare time you have, and dumping profits back onto them 15 yr mortgages, you could own 7-10 houses in say 12 years, now figure even if you only have 15 rental incomes at 800 each, thats $12,000 per month!!! figure 40 percent of that for taxes, insurance, upkeep ect and you can be making $6000-7200 a month without leaving your house!!! OR cash out when the market is good {not the smartest move since you keep the houses for x amount of time you can still own them and have all that money}... Anyway, I can talk about that stuff all day, I have a very healthy amount of high end rental property {I sold all my $1200- neighborhood stuff and kept the cream}, so every month my real estate company makes an obscene deposit into my bank account... ANYONE CAN DO THAT, by the way, good credit with a bit of know how and some down payment money, you can be a millionaire in 10 years or so!!! I used to take care of everything myself, collecting rents, doing the books, advertising, upkeep and repairs, interviewing tenants, ect, now I don't touch much at all, it runs itself.. The key for me was running my other business the entire time, so if the realestate was rocky {I had 9 apartments with 4 empty for 3 months because of the 100 year floods, I learned the hard way about flood zones and insurance!!!} but it wasnt deadly for me because I had my original income through them times, if that flood never happened I wouldnt have any horror stories because besides that {only cost me about 175K at the time} the rest of the time, the business was great... Anyone ever interested in doing it and needs advice, pm me, I love to get people on that track, any advice I can give is for free

December 4, 2014, 12:44 AM	#29
Dragline45 Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2010 Posts: 3,513	Don't want to hijack the thread riflemen so I sent you a pm.

December 4, 2014, 04:44 AM	#33
adrian44 Member Join Date: March 9, 2011 Posts: 49	Interesting posts here. I am especially shocked by the guy who dry fired the gun as you filled the paperwork. The first thing my dad taught me as a kid when I first entered a gunshop was to never touch anything without permission, and to always ask for another permission to dry fire a gun. I would expect the same curtsey from someone who works in the shop. I'm still so upset I actually woke up just after midnight after barely sleeping for 3 hours. I wish there was an independent database where people in a certain city can find a list of all FFL transfer dealers in the area WITH reviews and ratings by customers. I also feel that as a law abiding citizen who has never committed a crime there should be a way to receive a gun directly from the selling shop. Even if only CCW holders could do that. After all we were thoroughly vetted to obtain that permit and we should have the ability to skip this time and money wasting transfer thing with the heartache that comes with it. Not even going to talk about the fact that in the age of computer networks it's not right for anyone to keep getting the same conditional non-approval time after time after time then two or three days later gets told that they now know he's not the bad guy. I put down my SSN even though I don't like that for a positive identification but it still doesn't work.

December 4, 2014, 08:30 AM	#34
jasmith85 Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2012 Location: Tennessee Posts: 631	I have two FFLs that I will go through when I buy online and they both open the box when it comes in. Heck, neither of them call to tell me it has arrived until they have it logged in, and I have no problem with this. The primary FFL that I use is actually a friend of mine and I wouldn't have a problem if he tried the guns out. I don't buy guns unless I intend for them to be fired anyway. The second FFL I just recently started using because my primary FFL is currently in the Middle East, but I trust him to handle my guns. I'd probably tell him he can try them out if he asked.

December 4, 2014, 08:36 AM	#35
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Addressing the OP's question. The OP picked the receiving FFL, so the OP is stuck with the damage. OP might consider filing a small claims lawsuit against the receiving FFL for damaging his gun. Tough case, tough to prove fault, and tough to quantify your damages. The bottom line - whenever you order stuff online, guns or otherwise, damage to the product is one of the risks we purchasers assume since we as individuals are brokering the transaction and employing others to assist us in completing it. You try to reduce the risk as much as possible by choosing responsible FFL's. Of course, responsible FFL's who don't have idiot employees, don't let idiot employees touch other peoples stuff and don't themselves fondle your merchandise usually come at a higher price.

December 4, 2014, 08:58 AM	#36
riflemen Junior member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 259	Trust is the biggest factor here, if my ffl had to log each gun in before I got there, then I would be fine with it, I don't like the idea that now I wouldn't have a leg to stand on if there was something missing or damaged, but it is what it is. The fact remains the same, NONE of the FFL's here open your boxes, very rarely will they open a package... If you use a shop that does and you are fine with it, then it is what it is.. I spoke with my FFL this morning, he called me at 8am to let me know one of my consignment guns was sold last night, and while I had him on the phone I asked him if it was a law that FFL's had to log the guns in, and he said {hes owned this shop since the early 80's} that if he doesn't open the package he doesn't have to log it in, if he opens the package he has to log it in, he keeps all the boxes in the vault as a courtesy and to ensure nothing gets tampered with after it arrives, but that is not even required of him!!! After receiving them he can stack them up behind the counter if he wanted to... I brought up the OP's issue with having to wait for the release and he said that the best way to deal with something like that is to put the gun in a solid case with a zip tie or pad lock on the handle, then store it until its eligible for transfer... Which makes sense to me... The biggest issue is to trust your ffl, its their house and their rules, but you are the customer, if before doing the transfer you ask them to give you a call and not open the box until you arrive and they say no, move on... I know transfers are only $20-$35 BUT for example the FFL I just talked to, did over $35K in transfers this year and there is a month left!!!! He has it down to a science so it goes really smooth, he has them ship it with your name on the package, att:buyer under his business name, he write your phone number in big numbers on your ppw, when they arrive he gets your ppw, attaches it to the box and gives you a quick call, he texts me, but calls most guys unless they are regulars. Then he puts the boxes in the vault, you arrive he goes and gets your box, puts it on a table already setup for inspection, has a couple mats, chairs, and padded vises, as well as rags and pens, he x's where you have to sign, he has you read him the serial number and thats it, hands you your ppw and you can take your gun away, he has never touched, sometimes he will read the number himself, I have seen him do that but its rare... He also loves cooper, blazer, sako, ect small caliber bolt guns, and I buy a lot of them so he will handle some off my guns when I buy something out of the shop, but on a personal level not professional, he wants to feel the gun and I have no issue with that, I know them well enough if they had to open my boxes I wouldn't care, and as I said before that has happened... If you are going to a shop where they have some young kids working behind the counter and you buy something like a full auto mp5 that a young kid will not be able to resist playing with, than you may want to track your package and be there when it arrives, or pay for saturday delivery, if you don't trust your gun is safe...

December 4, 2014, 09:42 AM	#38
riflemen Junior member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 259	Billy, is right, without customers you don't have a business you have a gun collection... I hope the company makes good for it, as far as charging the employees around here they don't allow you to do that, I had an employee tip one of my $60K Mercedez service vans on its side, using it after hours {they take the vans home for night calls} he went to a barn fire party and when leaving put the left tires in a drainage ditch tipping the van on its side, then didn't shut the engine, diesel engine was blown up, body was destroyed, stock inside the van was damaged and some stolen because he didn't tell me about it until the next morning... My insurance company only paid what the van was worth and since as soon as you take a commercial vehicle off the new car lot, its worth about half of what you paid, I lost about $25K total, nothing I could do about it, he was on the clock when it happened {kind of, he was on call}. Needless to say it was his last day... Then he tried to collect workmens compensation because he said in injured his back in the accident, that didn't happen...

December 4, 2014, 12:08 PM	#42
TailGator Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,787	Lots of people on here know the laws and rules better than me, and I understand that what is fair and what is legal aren't always the same, but if the seller dictated what receiving FFL I used I would feel like the seller was at least partly responsible for their performance and the resulting damage to the gun. I wouldn't have any problem talking to the seller about the results of the seller's decision to make me use a different FFL than the one I have learned to trust.

December 4, 2014, 02:28 PM	#49
Theohazard Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Location: Western PA Posts: 3,829	You can tell the people in this thread who have never worked in a gun shop and have never had to face scrutiny from the ATF. You can also tell the people who have never had to run a small business and cut costs by streamlining certain services to be as efficient as possible. We get guns shipped to our store and we log them in, just like we're supposed to. The only way to ensure that you're logging them in correctly is to read the serial number straight off the gun itself. Anyone who has worked in a gun shop knows that using the box or invoice to record the serial number in the bound book or the 4473 is a VERY bad idea. Anybody that doesn't log the gun in by reading the serial number off the gun itself is making a VERY bad mistake. As for the people who expect the shop to wait to the last second to log the gun in so the customer can come in and open it: Obviously you've never been involved in trying to run a small business. It would add many more man-hours of work to keep track of each gun and how long it had been in the store un-logged-in, and then wait for the costumer to come pick it up, hoping they'll make it before the deadline. Then when the customer did come in, the specific employees who can log guns in (usually only a few) would have to stop what they're doing and log the gun in. You'd also have to have more storage space because there would be separate areas for logged-in guns and un-logged-in guns. Add in the fact that most customers don't come in when they say they're coming in, and you have a MUCH more complicated, expensive, and time-consuming business practice. It makes MUCH more sense to have the shipping and receiving people open the box, log it in, and then close it back up and set it aside. Then any employee can deliver the gun when the customer comes in. And if something happens and a rogue employee messes up a customer's gun, then the shop should handle the repair or replacement costs, but that will still be cheaper for the store than having a complicated system where they don't log the guns in right away. __________________ 0331: "Accuracy by volume."