Fast burning, slow burning powder????? - Page 2

edward5759 · December 30, 2012, 03:18 AM

Bart B.
The palma rifles had a little more free bore than the other rifles.
.020 or so the free bore ran a little faster and the 26 to 30 inch barrels gave some advantage.
For years there was no ball powder could reach the some level of stick powders in palma shooters. but many people including my self have won many a matches bench rest shooting a ball powder especially out of a 222.
For CMP shooting ball powders is all I have ever used in m14s. I had BLC works great for me. I shoot with German Salazar who uses a ball powder and stick.
All in all when working at Rock Island as a Engineer in the rifle harmonics Dept most all rifles will shoot unexpectedly Well with some powders and poor with others.
Back in the late 80s some dim wit took 30-06 out of palma shooting, being misinformed about the range. the 155 grain palma bullet is good for distance but the average shooter is not going to pay the price.
Shooting 155gr bullets from a .308 is the best way I know to reach your goal. but an M-14 your hammering the piston a little to hard.
The reason I usually shoot heavier bullets is simply that I don't like shooting close to 3000 fps with a .308 and that's what the 155s require (2970 fps is fairly normal for a 155gr Palma load).
My highest mid-range score ever, a 600-48X was fired with Berger 155gr VLDs. I don't like shooting close to 3000 fps with a .308 and that's what the 155s require (2970 fps is fairly normal for a 155gr Palma load).
lots of palma shooters have gone to the ball powders. even in the hot Arizona summer.
respectably

Edward5759

Bart B. · December 30, 2012, 07:12 AM

Edward, all the Palma chamber's I've shot, including the ones used on International teams, have had the leade set back a bit shorter than SAAMI spec. That's so the 155's would seat gently into the lands centering them well. And 30" barrels in Palma rifles shoot 155's out about 3000 fps with the same pressure (about 52,000 cup) as the same load shoots them 2800 fps from a 24" barrel. That was proved in 1991 when the 155's were first used in competition; short barreled rifles had subsonic problems with that issued ammo at 1000 yards.

Are you aware of the accuracy disaster Lake City's M118 with ball powder caused? That aside, if one gets best accuracy with ball powder, do it.

I wrote the first rule for Palma rifles that was put in the NRA High Power Rule Book back in the 1990's. It stated any rifle chambered for the .308 Win. or .30-06 could be used. That was to allow folks whose only match rifle was a .30-06. The reason it was changed later was twofold and had nothing to do with the ranges used. The rest of the world used the .308 Win. in their fullbore matches and the .308 was typically more accurate, so the US Palma Team wanted folks to learn how to dope wind for the .308 as well as shoot it well enough to make the US Palma Team and be competitive with other countries.

Note it was the use of the .308 in NRA matches starting in 1963 that 3 years later, the short and mid range target's scoring rings were reduced 'cause there were too many unbreakable ties shot with .308's. A few years later, the long range target's scoring rings were made smaller for the same reason.

steve4102 · December 30, 2012, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Peak pressure occurs when an accelerating rifle bullet has gone maybe three inches or so. Therefore, we need not be concerned about choosing a different burn rate by barrel length; whatever powder produces the highest speed in a 36" barrel will do so in a barrel half that length.

^^This^^

The powder that gives you the highest velocity in a short barrel will give the highest velocity in a long barrel as the powder is all burned up in the first few inches of the bore.

The muzzle flash is gas produced by the "burned" powder igniting when exiting the barrel and entering an oxygen rich atmosphere.

edward5759 · December 30, 2012, 02:35 PM

Bart B.

Your right on .
were having better luck with some of the ball powders. I am too blind to shoot and after my last stroke I have my wife drive me to the range. I like to sit and And watch the new kids shoot. I donated about 100 lbs of the old 4895 left when Hodgdon was selling it in brown paper bags. they like it as well

Ed

Eppie · December 30, 2012, 10:59 PM

Edward, I'm very sorry to hear that you suffered a stroke, and I hope you will make full recovery. I'm also grateful you are taking the time to share your knowledge.

May the Good Lord bless you with many more years of good health.

DiffyDoc · December 31, 2012, 09:46 AM

Thanks so much for all your knowledge. I have used H1000, pushing 115 gr. boat tails quite a lot in my 270wsm and found it to be waaaaay more consistent round for round when shooting 400-600. That is about as far as I ever need to shoot yotes. The chart for the burn rates made a lot of sense finally, because I could relate to the length of the barrel to burn rate. Most of my loading has been by the book without the use of a chrony.....but I'm getting one soon.

December 30, 2012, 03:18 AM	#26
edward5759 Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2009 Location: Phoenix, AZ. 30 miles from water, two feet from Hell. Posts: 355	Bart B. The palma rifles had a little more free bore than the other rifles. .020 or so the free bore ran a little faster and the 26 to 30 inch barrels gave some advantage. For years there was no ball powder could reach the some level of stick powders in palma shooters. but many people including my self have won many a matches bench rest shooting a ball powder especially out of a 222. For CMP shooting ball powders is all I have ever used in m14s. I had BLC works great for me. I shoot with German Salazar who uses a ball powder and stick. All in all when working at Rock Island as a Engineer in the rifle harmonics Dept most all rifles will shoot unexpectedly Well with some powders and poor with others. Back in the late 80s some dim wit took 30-06 out of palma shooting, being misinformed about the range. the 155 grain palma bullet is good for distance but the average shooter is not going to pay the price. Shooting 155gr bullets from a .308 is the best way I know to reach your goal. but an M-14 your hammering the piston a little to hard. The reason I usually shoot heavier bullets is simply that I don't like shooting close to 3000 fps with a .308 and that's what the 155s require (2970 fps is fairly normal for a 155gr Palma load). My highest mid-range score ever, a 600-48X was fired with Berger 155gr VLDs. I don't like shooting close to 3000 fps with a .308 and that's what the 155s require (2970 fps is fairly normal for a 155gr Palma load). lots of palma shooters have gone to the ball powders. even in the hot Arizona summer. respectably Edward5759 __________________ Failure is part of success! This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" -Adolf Hitler,1935"

December 30, 2012, 07:12 AM	#27
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Edward, all the Palma chamber's I've shot, including the ones used on International teams, have had the leade set back a bit shorter than SAAMI spec. That's so the 155's would seat gently into the lands centering them well. And 30" barrels in Palma rifles shoot 155's out about 3000 fps with the same pressure (about 52,000 cup) as the same load shoots them 2800 fps from a 24" barrel. That was proved in 1991 when the 155's were first used in competition; short barreled rifles had subsonic problems with that issued ammo at 1000 yards. Are you aware of the accuracy disaster Lake City's M118 with ball powder caused? That aside, if one gets best accuracy with ball powder, do it. I wrote the first rule for Palma rifles that was put in the NRA High Power Rule Book back in the 1990's. It stated any rifle chambered for the .308 Win. or .30-06 could be used. That was to allow folks whose only match rifle was a .30-06. The reason it was changed later was twofold and had nothing to do with the ranges used. The rest of the world used the .308 Win. in their fullbore matches and the .308 was typically more accurate, so the US Palma Team wanted folks to learn how to dope wind for the .308 as well as shoot it well enough to make the US Palma Team and be competitive with other countries. Note it was the use of the .308 in NRA matches starting in 1963 that 3 years later, the short and mid range target's scoring rings were reduced 'cause there were too many unbreakable ties shot with .308's. A few years later, the long range target's scoring rings were made smaller for the same reason. Last edited by Bart B.; December 30, 2012 at 07:29 AM.

December 30, 2012, 02:35 PM	#29
edward5759 Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2009 Location: Phoenix, AZ. 30 miles from water, two feet from Hell. Posts: 355	Bart B. Your right on . were having better luck with some of the ball powders. I am too blind to shoot and after my last stroke I have my wife drive me to the range. I like to sit and And watch the new kids shoot. I donated about 100 lbs of the old 4895 left when Hodgdon was selling it in brown paper bags. they like it as well Ed __________________ Failure is part of success! This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" -Adolf Hitler,1935"

December 30, 2012, 10:59 PM	#30
Eppie Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2010 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 802	Edward, I'm very sorry to hear that you suffered a stroke, and I hope you will make full recovery. I'm also grateful you are taking the time to share your knowledge. May the Good Lord bless you with many more years of good health. __________________ "Socialized Medicine is the Keystone to the Arch of the Socialist State.” -Vladimir Lenin "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson (An early warning to Obama care) Last edited by Eppie; December 31, 2012 at 11:18 AM.

December 31, 2012, 09:46 AM	#31
DiffyDoc Member Join Date: December 18, 2012 Posts: 22	Burn Rates Thanks so much for all your knowledge. I have used H1000, pushing 115 gr. boat tails quite a lot in my 270wsm and found it to be waaaaay more consistent round for round when shooting 400-600. That is about as far as I ever need to shoot yotes. The chart for the burn rates made a lot of sense finally, because I could relate to the length of the barrel to burn rate. Most of my loading has been by the book without the use of a chrony.....but I'm getting one soon.