Teachers with firearms

[Glenn E. Meyer]

If you really want to stop school shooters by letting teachers be randomly armed, then do it right and make sure that said armed random teachers will have the training to be able to deal with the highly chaotic, scary, and emotionally charged situation in which they will find themselves.

Why can't you substitute rampage shooters for school shooters? The chaos of a mall or church shooting is still chaotic.

Now, I am firmly in belief of training for such and done my best to get some significant FOF, chaotic, etc. training. But, must it be differently mandated for teachers? That I don't buy.

However, if you want to carry in school - you should train for such. Also, if you see yourself standing up in a house of worship - same thing.

[mehavey]

Why can't you substitute rampage shooters for school shooters? The chaos of
a mall or church shooting is still chaotic.

Now, I am firmly in belief of training for such and done my best to get some significant
FOF, chaotic, etc. training. But, must it be differently mandated for teachers? That I don't buy.

Glenn, you and I are going to disagree, so we'll just stipulate that as a precondition.

But a church, mall, downtown street shooting finds you as a private citizen.

Conversely, a teacher is not acting as private citizen when in school/teaching.
He/she is an agent of that school (hence the state) and does not cease to be an
agent just because the shooting starts. As such I support a more stringent training
mandate, and the school board/county/state has every prerogative (nay, duty)
to do so as well.

[manta49]

I think if a teacher wanted to carry in school then extra training should be mandatory. From what I can see training for concealed firearms is different in different states. I also think teachers being routinely armed American schools is not going to happen, so is it worth talking about.

[shortwave]

Quite frankly, I can't understand why anybody would want to send their kids to school under the care of an armed teacher who had no desire to learn how and when it was appropriate to use it.

AFAIK, In most states by the time a person obtains their ccl they should have already been armed with the above info through their required ccp classes.

I wouldn't want my child to go to a school under the care of a teacher that had no desire to learn how and when it was appropriate to use it either. But the teacher that has their ccl had the desire to get it, went through the course and learned the necessary knowledge to obtain the permit. Therefore should already know when to use it. Same rules apply as if that teacher were in the mall, a theatre, on the street and had to use it.

[manta49]

AFAIK, In most states by the time a person obtains their ccl they should have already been armed with the above info through their required ccp classes.

Coming from the UK I am not sure what training is required for concealed carrying of a firearm in America. Is it the same in all states that concealed is legal. In other words is there a standard test and training that you have to pass that is the same in all states. What sort of training time are we talking about 1 day 1 week. ?

[Tom Servo]

AFAIK, In most states by the time a person obtains their ccl they should have already been armed with the above info through their required ccp classes

Many states don't mandate a specific CCW course. Some have no training requirement at all, while others allow a hunting license or NFA first-steps course to fulfill the requirement.

[manta49]

Many states don't mandate a specific CCW course. Some have no training requirement at all, while others allow a hunting license or NFA first-steps course to fulfill the requirement.

That's why I asked. Some are saying the fact that someone concealed carries that should qualify them to carry in a school full of children. I know people with firearms that I wouldn't trust to guard a hamster. The thought of them having a firearm in a school would concern me at best.

[dogtown tom]

mehavey ........Conversely, a teacher is not acting as private citizen when in school/teaching.
He/she is an agent of that school (hence the state) and does not cease to be an agent just because the shooting starts. As such I support a more stringent training mandate, and the school board/county/state has every prerogative (nay, duty) to do so as well.

Malarky.
Please point out that clause in the Second Amendment where my rights as a private citizen cease because I'm a teacher.

Nothing in my contract says a damned thing about being an agent of the state (I'm not, I work for my local school district not the State of Texas)

Teachers are contracted to TEACH......period. Using my personal firearm to protect myself (or others) is no different in school as it would be in a mall, movie theater, or grocery store. I would bear full responsibility for my actions. My school district should not have any say so in how I choose to defend myself.

[ATW525]

Coming from the UK I am not sure what training is required for concealed carrying of a firearm in America. Is it the same in all states that concealed is legal. In other words is there a standard test and training that you have to pass that is the same in all states. What sort of training time are we talking about 1 day 1 week. ?

In my state, you need to know that you have to apply at your local police department. Other than that, you don't need to know anything about firearms at all. Someone can get their license with no knowledge of self defense other than what they've seen while watching a Death Wish marathon on TV.

Now, I'm not against that system in general. In fact, I'd rather they get rid of the permit all together and just let people carry who want to carry since the permit serves no useful purpose other than a tax. However, when it comes to me entrusting the care of my children to someone who has chosen to carry a gun, I want to make sure they have at least a basic understanding of firearms safety and the law.

[shortwave]

Now, I'm not against that system in general. In fact, I'd rather they get rid of the permit all together and just let people carry who want to carry since the permit serves no useful purpose other than a tax. However, when it comes to me entrusting the care of my children to someone who has chosen to carry a gun, I want to make sure they have at least a basic understanding of firearms safety and the law

Respectfully, this is just the kind of statement that puzzles me.

Some seem to think that it's perfectly okay and safe for themselves and their kids to rub elbows everyday with strangers that are ccw'ers anywhere out on the street(malls, church's theatres, restaurants, in passing) but our kids should not rub elbows with their teachers that may be ccw'ers while in school?

And more then likely, most parents know more about their children's teachers( or have at least met them) but have never seen the stranger ccw'er out on the street and will most likely never see them again.

Just don't get it?

[Double Naught Spy]

Why can't you substitute rampage shooters for school shooters? The chaos of a mall or church shooting is still chaotic.

Simple, I am not making the argument that people should be allowed to CCW for the sole purpose of protecting everybody else inside of the mall or church who doesn't or can't. Dan McKown stated that he carried to protect other people.

"It's a stupid statement, but I have a concealed weapons permit in case some idiot shoots up a mall," said McKown,

taken from post #3 here...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ht=tacoma+mall

McKown had a CCW, by golly, but no training, no understanding of what to do, what to expect, no real plan. He was just a CCW with a gun who carried to keep people from shooting up the mall. McKown became exactly one of those people Grossman writes about who don't have adequate training with which to deal with such situations and in McKown's case like most CCW people, pretty much none.

Based on reading this thread, most folks aren't really worried about the teachers so much as they are worried about the students and lots of people are expecting the teachers to battle a school shooter and many seem to be under the impression that just merely having a gun like mall protector McKown is what is likely to make teachers effective. That I don't buy.

If it is truly for the protection of the teacher's charges that has been repeatedly argued, then why would anyone NOT want them trained?

[M1ke10191]

I didn't read this thread, so bear that in mind. Too long and it's almost time to hit the sack.

As a potential teacher in the future, here's my succinct take on it.

I'm on these forums so you know I'm pro gun. That being said, I would never force anyone to carry a gun against their will. I do, however, greatly support teachers with CCWs being able to carry should they choose to do so. My state does not allow open carry so I can't comment on that. A CCW shows proof of training and an interest in firearms. How that individual wants to utilize (or not) that CCW should be up to them.

All in all, I'd love to see weapons allowed in schools.

[shortwave]

DNS,

Here is a couple that may be the 'flip side' of that coin. Although the ccw'er in the Oregon mall shooting did not take the shot that killed the shooter due to the fact that he was afraid of hitting innocent bystanders, it does show that the young man, a regular cc civilian had enough witts about himself to not pull the trigger without checking target background.

http://www.examiner.com/.../mass-sho...man-with-a-gun

http://www.naturalnews.com/036685_kn..._concealed_gun...

...and this site has a fairly extensive list:

http://www.fromthetrenchesworldrepor...llings-stopped

[Double Naught Spy]

DNS,

Here is a couple that may be the 'flip side' of that coin. Although the ccw'er in the Oregon mall shooting did not take the shot that killed the shooter due to the fact that he was afraid of hitting innocent bystanders, it does show that the young man, a regular cc civilian had enough witts about himself to not pull the trigger without checking target background.

shortwave,

Oh, you mean Nick Meli? If you are saying that teachers should be just as well as this "regular" CCW person, I agree if they are as "regular" as he is. Thank you for noting a standard by which to compare.

By the way, none of your links work.

Well let's look at that example of Nick Meli, shall we?

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamasc...e_had_rob.html

Meli was first certified as an unarmed professional security guard by the Oregon Department of Public Safety, Standards and Training in 2010. Last June, he completed the additional 24 hours of training needed to be certified as an armed professional, including passing tests on shooting, safe gun handling and criminal and use-of-force laws, said Karen Evans, DPSST investigator.

She said Meli has worked as a security guard for Clackamas Town Center since June through Valor Security Services.

Sorry, but Nick Meli was not your regular John or Jane CCW. He was a trained, licensed, professional security guard who actually worked at the mall!

By the way, there was another CCW person at the mall that day, confirmed. Her gun was left in the car. See post 17. You can read more about her in later posts in the thread.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...+mall+shooting

[manta49]

Some seem to think that it's perfectly okay and safe for themselves and their kids to rub elbows everyday with strangers that are ccw'ers anywhere out on the street(malls, church's theatres, restaurants, in passing) but our kids should not rub elbows with their teachers that may be ccw'ers while in school?

Maybe its that parents have no choice when it comes to their children to rub elbows with ccw-ers when they are out in the general public. That doesn't mean some are not happy about it. Schools are different some parents will not want teachers carrying firearms at schools , especially ones that have no experience of firearms, as some seem to be suggesting should be allowed to carry in schools. Like it or not it would just take one incident of a teacher accidentally shooting a pupil or similar incident and the anti-gun people will have a field day.

[shortwave]

By the way, none of your links work

You are right , the first two links do not work and I can't figure out why? But the very last one does work.

As I used the same criteria 'ccp holders stop killings' when I did the search and a number of links came up. Then copied and paste link ???

Anyways, the second link is about an incident that happened 4/26/12 in Salt Lake City, Utah in which a man goes into a store, buys a knife and starts randomly stabbing people while hollering " You killed my people". He stabbed two people and a ccw'er pulled a gun on him stopping him from further attacks.
I particularly liked this part in the article:

By the time officers arrived the suspect had been subdued by employees and shoppers. Police had high praise for gun carrying man who ended the hysteria. Lt. Brian Purvis said, "This was a volatile situation that could have gotten worse. We can only assume from what we saw it could have gotten worse. He was definitely in the right place at the right time."

[JimPage]

I don't think anyone who has a CCW/CCL should be barred from a school. What's the point? Certainly the school shooters we have seen so many of seemingly, (I say seeingly because statistics don't support the perceptions created by the media) don't heisitate to bring their guns in to do their murderous terrorism. All the prohibition of guns in schools does is guarantee the bad guy has helpless victims.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

My core position which I expressed on TFL many years ago and now - is that I don't regard teachers as an armed agent of the state.

In school, they have no official responsibilty to act as an armed agent. If the rampage starts, they can jump out the window and flee in terror. They are not police. Their use of the firearm will be decided by their own free will.

Should CHL/CCW folks be trained -should the state mandate such? That is an interesting philosophical issue. What level of education is needed for the exercise of basic rights?

Certainly, we have folks voting who are flat out stupid and ignorant of the things needed to run a government. In fact, they run for the highest office at times. But we don't require IQ tests and they can lead us into war, tank the economy, or all other kinds of mischief.

Tacoma mall stupidity is equal to voting for Candidate Stupid? Practicing a religion that is not up to snuff in modern times?

But should the CCW type have some training - I think (and I don't care if this offends folks) that if you carry in public, you should try to achieve some level of competency. Just as if you vote, you should try to understand the issues. Should the state mandate it? Interesting issue.

However, for me - given the state laws allowing you to carry, I support carry everywhere unless there is a highly technical reason for it to be forbidden. I don't buy the teacher as agent and thus they should carry.

The differential risk argument is predicated on children in school being targeted as special. The risk of killing an innocent child is overweighted. Even shooting one kid by accident to save 30 is not acceptable (biologically based evolutionary moral principle according to recent theory). But this is emotional. Better to lose one than 30.

I have faced this debate. While I have no chance of getting carry at my school, I have had folks say to me that if the rest of the gun types were like me (dah DAH - I'm wonderful - blah), they would not be anxious about carry. That is not true of most of the antis - but some are reasonable. But the reasonable say what about old Fudd over there. And I have shot with old Fudd, they may have a point in the pragmatic realm.

Are we better off if the teacher who does train and practice carry (like some of the folks I know with strong military backgrounds or enthusiast training) along with the old Fudd? I argue we are and take the risk of Old Fudd.

Not to divert - but some old Fudds won't train as they view themselves as natural warriors and marksmen. I have opined that they don't want to look foolish among other dominant males and thus won't try. It's a personality thing.

Interesting debate - lots of valid points.

[mehavey]

I would love to hear from any lawyers who are familiar/have handled cases wherein teachers'
actions (or inactions) while in school/during schools hours/in the classroom are considered to be
acting as presumed agents of that school -- or not.

(This applies to any organization/corporation, etc)

We're talking civil Law now, ...not fairness, justice, or what we might all otherwise
consider 'common sense.' What is the case law?

[shortwave]

^^^That would be interesting.

Would also be interesting to hear how some of the school districts that are already allowing their teachers to cc to school(some since 2000) are handling the legalities as well. Surely there has been something come up since 2000 that has tested the waters.

[manta49]

Would also be interesting to hear how some of the school districts that are already allowing their teachers to cc to school(some since 2000) are handling the legalities as well. Surely there has been something come up since 2000 that has tested the waters

How many schools or states allow teachers to carry firearms. ?

[shortwave]

There's at least 18 states(didn't see Ohio on that list so assuming list needs updated) that will allow campus carry with some restriction. Each state seems to be different with some faculty needing training while others needing permission from the Administrator.

Will, don't know if it's cause it's New Years, the weather, martians landing or something retarded that I am doing but I've yet to link a site yet today that has come up right...

Sooo....this is what came up when searching:

Guns In Schools: Firearms Already Allowed In 18 States With ...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...uns-in-schools
In the weeks following the Sandy Hook massacre, a number of state lawmakers' proposals to fight school gun violence by arming teachers have been met with ...

[manta49]

There's at least 18 states(didn't see Ohio on that list so assuming list needs updated) that will allow campus carry with some restriction. Each state seems to be different with some faculty needing training while others needing permission from the Administrator

I was thinking more how many teachers are allowed to carry in schools where the pupils are too young to carry. I think that's different to students who already carry being allowed to bring them to campus.

[shortwave]

Don't know the answer to that.

I know here in Ohio a couple school district Superintendents are letting the teachers cc in class but do not know exact number. This is new policy procedure for Ohio as well as other states but not so new for other states such as Utah and possibly Texas.

[Double Naught Spy]

Guns In Schools: Firearms Already Allowed In 18 States With ...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...uns-in-schools... Cached
In the weeks following the Sandy Hook massacre, a number of state lawmakers' proposals to fight school gun violence by arming teachers have been met with ...

Link still does not work.

Anyways, the second link is about an incident that happened 4/26/12 in Salt Lake City, Utah in which a man goes into a store, buys a knife and starts randomly stabbing people while hollering " You killed my people". He stabbed two people and a ccw'er pulled a gun on him stopping him from further attacks.

I actually posted that incident here...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...light=stabbing
Here is the article I cited...
http://www.4utah.com/content/about_4...eE2rsRhrWCM9dQ

Yep, a CCW did good. It happens, but just because it can happen doesn't mean it will happen or that the untrained teachers. With that said, what do you know about the CCW who stopped the stabbing? Was he an Assan, Meli, Wilson, Myrick? You don't know what his background was. He may never had had any training, but maybe he did. He wasn't dealing with stampeding dozens of people, screaming kids or the like, as a teachers and witnesses have described in school and mall shootings.

Giving a gun to a random regular person does not make them magically fine marksmen, tactically proficient, crowd crisis managers, or situationally aware, but this is what folks seem to be expecting random regular teachers to be by arming them for when the next Adam Lanza shows up. That of course assumes that as volunteer self armed teachers, they didn't just happen to leave their gun in their car that day, at home, locked in their desk while they are out with the class at recess, lunch, etc.