Where are the Honest Class III Dealers

dajowi · October 21, 2010, 01:47 PM

I've been trying to sell a Class III weapon for some time now. I've tried to deal with both out of state and in state dealers. The dealers I've come across have all been either deceitful or displayed the worst business practices imaginable.

Here are examples of what I've encountered:

1. They displayed an incredible lack of knowledge of NFA rules. I'm no expert but I certainly can find information on-line either at NFA orientated web sites (from knowledgeable individuals) or through the ATF which invariably discredits the information I've received. I find it hard to believe that these places can stay in business considering the importance of legality of process when dealing with class III items.

2. Business' who display a complete lack of customer service. I can't tell you how much time I've wasted contacting dealers who simply fail to return emails, phone calls, or answer the door at their establishments. One local shop has the open sign "ON," door locked, lights on. You can see the proprietor walking around the shop looking straight at you ignoring repeated knocks on the door. This shop has been doing this kind of business for years.

3. Failure to communicate. It is frustrating to be in contact with a business who fails to answer simple questions regarding the class III process. What their obligations are, what your obligations are.

4. Profit over everything else. I understand that it is a business that has to make a profit in order to survive. When you have a dealer who requires, (in this particular case) $400 for two tax stamps, (two CIII items) and $250 to facilitate the transfer of the two items on an in-state face to face sale without disclosing the fact that the transaction doesn't have to be facilitated through them is in my book - dishonest. Any dealer, (or business) which displays this level of deceit isn't worthy of my business and should be charged with fraud.

My experience so far as been that Class III dealers on the whole can hardly be trusted to supply correct information, but can be depended upon to make the purchase/selling of CIII items as confusing and profitable as possible. I hate to paint all CIII dealers with the same brush but from what I've seen even the websites of these business give false and misleading information. It's too bad because these CIII transactions are expensive and complicated enough.

demigod · October 21, 2010, 03:18 PM

I think many dealers are basically flakes. It's like a prerequisite or something.

GoingQuiet · October 21, 2010, 03:19 PM

I'll help out here.

First thing - no such thing as a Class III weapon. Class III is a tax bracket. The phrase "Class III dealer" does not mean "Dealer in Class III items" it means "Taxpayer, Class 3"

Just like the clip v magazine debate - what's wrong is wrong.

Second - http://www.subguns.com/c2c3/c2c3.htm

I'm not on the list. In a few years, I expect to be - but reputation comes with time.

I can't speak for everyone but there are many that are part of the NFA business community have their FFL/SOT so they can goof around with post samples.

Read: They don't need your business nor do they care. They have to be running a business according to ATF but there's no federal law that says they have to be doing it very well.

Personally - I always tell my customers what saves them money. I turn trades down all the time because it is much more efficient for a customer to sell their gear themselves. I had 4 machinegun evaluations this week and I told the owner that for me to get involved with F4's - my standard rate is sizeable. If they want to do a F4 direct to the new owner, they can do that. I agree with you in that there is a sin of omission when they say you HAVE to clear through an FFL/SOT.

Hope this helped.

David Hineline · October 21, 2010, 05:05 PM

Price it correctly and it will be gone in one day. If you think you need to hold out for retail price then you might as well keep it.

Post an add here for $5 with the gun being $2000 and toss the silencer in the chipper shreader and it will sell.

[/url]http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/?db=nfafirearms&category=All+Items+in+this+Category&query=category&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=headlines[/url]

baffledcan · October 22, 2010, 05:23 PM

Most all class 3 dealers arent very good in the customer service department. I think most dealers become dealers to acquire toys for themselves easier, not service or sell to the private citizens. At least thats what I've experienced.

krinkman47 · October 23, 2010, 12:35 PM

you are very correct.every sot dealer i have done business with are the scum of the earth.If i would run my business like the scum sot dealers i would been gone 32 years ago!:barf:

Skans · October 23, 2010, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Price it correctly and it will be gone in one day. If you think you need to hold out for retail price then you might as well keep it.

Couldn't have said it better. Most folks get frustrated simply because they overprice their stuff. It ain't that hard to make sure that yoru advertised gun is a few percentage points below anything else similar on the internet. Although I have no intention of selling my only machinegun, I bet if I priced my AC556 at $5,500, I'd have it sold in a few days and the buyer would be picking up all the transfer costs. Am I losing out on $300 - $500? Maybe - who cares.....mine would be sold and the others will be just getting frustrated screwing around with tire kickers.

MrM4 · October 24, 2010, 03:06 PM

There is a trend of poor customer service from SOTs, that is pretty much fact. For the record a few of us SOTs understand that and make apoint not to be one of those guys, but in general it seems to be true.

snipecatcher · October 24, 2010, 03:33 PM

Agreed. I've personally dealt with one dealer that is a through and through lying scumbag (and everyone who works for him) and have heard of several others. The whole system is flawed.

baffledcan · October 24, 2010, 09:07 PM

I can see why the ATF is tough on dealers as most are selfish dirtbags that just wanna accumulate a personal arsenal and could care less about service to customers. The dealers I've dealt with though good guys in person and never screwed me over major were pretty uncaring in getting my form 4 out and informing me when it arrived. They just hold onto my form & stamp and toy until I contact them as though they are doing so much for me by filling out a few lines on a form 4 and sending it out

.

MrM4 · October 24, 2010, 11:55 PM

I will never understand why a dealer is not in a hurry to get a item transfered that has been approved, I don't want anything sitting in my shop for a long period of time that has been transfered. The Risk of loss by theif or fire are good reason to what those items moved, if I transfer a MG for someone I want it in and out of the shop as soon as the paper work is done.

I think most dealers just dont care, many have the line of thinking that says something along the lines of " they waited 3 months whats 2 more weeks until I get time to mess with it". Its a poor way to due business but it seems common.

krinkman47 · October 25, 2010, 12:05 PM

the abuse of the scum sot dealers makes me want to quit buying nfa toys.It not like i am trying pre 86 m16 for 500.00.I never seen anything in my life like this kind scum.:barf: does anybody know sot dealer in mo.i could deal with.thanks.ps if i find any pre 86 m16 for 500.00 i will post

Ropin4gold · November 18, 2010, 07:03 PM

How about posting some names.....

Both good and bad dealers so consumers can know where to spend thier $$$$

David Hineline · November 18, 2010, 08:46 PM

subguns.com has a list of recommended dealers.

They used to list bad dealers but that does not work out so well.

Some dealers are so bad that posting against them is not even a safe thing to do.

If you dealers time is only worth a $25 transfer fee that might be your first indication that things are not going to go well long term.

David Hineline · November 18, 2010, 08:50 PM

In MO I would work with this guy if possible. There are two dealers I would.

Denny's Guns - Dennis Foutch
Specialties: Class 3
2001 Clay St.
North Kansas City, MO 64116
Phone: (816) 221-9117
FAX: (816) 221-1171
E-mail: [email protected]
http://www.globaltactical.com

xrageofangelsx · November 20, 2010, 09:23 PM

We seem to have the opposite of this problem in Indiana. There are several quality Class III dealers.

Bartee Transfers in Bargersville, IN.

SSNFA in Hendricks CO, IN.

21st Century Firearms in Bluffton, IN.

They are all excellent businesses to work with. Definitely sorry to hear about poor customer service from other places. I do see that a lot in several gun stores, not just SOT/FFLs... I've been to several shops where it is as if your mere presence in the store is offensive.

garyhan · November 21, 2010, 03:04 AM

In Oregon, Pat Murphy (Oregon Research Labs LLC) is great. He is located in Vernonia. Get something from him and you'll probably end up shooting more dollars worth of ammo in his sub guns and suppressed weapons than he makes on the deal.

gary

richmondtx · November 23, 2010, 04:34 PM

Mike Trent in Houston is a great guy, he has done 3 MG and 4 Silencer as well as 1 SBS X-fers for me, all went off without a hitch except for the the 1st MG..which was a paperwork SNAFU. He charges 50-100 bucks per NFA X-fer depending on the item.

His contact info is:

1425 N Durham Dr.
Houston, Tx 77008
[email protected]

richmondtx · November 23, 2010, 04:38 PM

On another note, I'm currently dealing with a dealer in OH, that wanted to sell a MG, but might have had a change of heart. Can't get him to respond to any emails, or messages I've left for him at the store...I'm glad I found this out BEFORE sending him money.

Arizona Fusilier · November 26, 2010, 06:51 PM

Most Class III dealers love guns; a laudable point. I suspect, like others who have posted here, its good way to accumulate ones toys.

Unfortunately, a love of firearms does not translate to business savvy, whether you are a dealer, gunsmith, or whatever.

More to the point, Class III dealers tend to have their operation built around an increasingly obsolete business model: that of the middleman with the monopoly on information. Not only info on the market, but the whole BATFE bureacracy, which for the neophyte, is intimidating indeed. With the advent of the internet, the middleman/information broker adds little value to most transactions, IMO.

mdshooter · January 9, 2011, 08:34 AM

Two fellows I have dealt with who are honest and responsive:

http://www.davidspiwak.com/

http://www.dealernfa.com/

I have bought from, but never sold to these guys, and give them high marks for honesty and integrity.

David Hineline · January 9, 2011, 08:53 AM

Most Class III dealers love guns; a laudable point. I suspect, like others who have posted here, its good way to accumulate ones toys.

Unfortunately, a love of firearms does not translate to business savvy, whether you are a dealer, gunsmith, or whatever.

More to the point, Class III dealers tend to have their operation built around an increasingly obsolete business model: that of the middleman with the monopoly on information. Not only info on the market, but the whole BATFE bureacracy, which for the neophyte, is intimidating indeed. With the advent of the internet, the middleman/information broker adds little value to most transactions, IMO.

Go ahead and get your license and with all your grand ideas run a business and show us all how it is done.

gyvel · January 9, 2011, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Where are the Honest Class III Dealers

They hang out at the same place as the honest politicians.

Bogie · January 14, 2011, 04:29 PM

If you're near Philly, look up Dr. Dennis A. Todd - Great to deal with. He's also got an island of tables at the Knob Creek shoot/shows...

October 21, 2010, 01:47 PM	#1
dajowi Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Posts: 1,196	Where are the Honest Class III Dealers I've been trying to sell a Class III weapon for some time now. I've tried to deal with both out of state and in state dealers. The dealers I've come across have all been either deceitful or displayed the worst business practices imaginable. Here are examples of what I've encountered: 1. They displayed an incredible lack of knowledge of NFA rules. I'm no expert but I certainly can find information on-line either at NFA orientated web sites (from knowledgeable individuals) or through the ATF which invariably discredits the information I've received. I find it hard to believe that these places can stay in business considering the importance of legality of process when dealing with class III items. 2. Business' who display a complete lack of customer service. I can't tell you how much time I've wasted contacting dealers who simply fail to return emails, phone calls, or answer the door at their establishments. One local shop has the open sign "ON," door locked, lights on. You can see the proprietor walking around the shop looking straight at you ignoring repeated knocks on the door. This shop has been doing this kind of business for years. 3. Failure to communicate. It is frustrating to be in contact with a business who fails to answer simple questions regarding the class III process. What their obligations are, what your obligations are. 4. Profit over everything else. I understand that it is a business that has to make a profit in order to survive. When you have a dealer who requires, (in this particular case) $400 for two tax stamps, (two CIII items) and $250 to facilitate the transfer of the two items on an in-state face to face sale without disclosing the fact that the transaction doesn't have to be facilitated through them is in my book - dishonest. Any dealer, (or business) which displays this level of deceit isn't worthy of my business and should be charged with fraud. My experience so far as been that Class III dealers on the whole can hardly be trusted to supply correct information, but can be depended upon to make the purchase/selling of CIII items as confusing and profitable as possible. I hate to paint all CIII dealers with the same brush but from what I've seen even the websites of these business give false and misleading information. It's too bad because these CIII transactions are expensive and complicated enough.

October 21, 2010, 03:19 PM	#3
GoingQuiet Member Join Date: July 1, 2010 Location: Melbourne, FL Posts: 92	I'll help out here. First thing - no such thing as a Class III weapon. Class III is a tax bracket. The phrase "Class III dealer" does not mean "Dealer in Class III items" it means "Taxpayer, Class 3" Just like the clip v magazine debate - what's wrong is wrong. Second - http://www.subguns.com/c2c3/c2c3.htm I'm not on the list. In a few years, I expect to be - but reputation comes with time. I can't speak for everyone but there are many that are part of the NFA business community have their FFL/SOT so they can goof around with post samples. Read: They don't need your business nor do they care. They have to be running a business according to ATF but there's no federal law that says they have to be doing it very well. Personally - I always tell my customers what saves them money. I turn trades down all the time because it is much more efficient for a customer to sell their gear themselves. I had 4 machinegun evaluations this week and I told the owner that for me to get involved with F4's - my standard rate is sizeable. If they want to do a F4 direct to the new owner, they can do that. I agree with you in that there is a sin of omission when they say you HAVE to clear through an FFL/SOT. Hope this helped. __________________ FFL/SOT Melbourne, FL - Sales by appointment. [email protected] Sig Sauer Stocking Dealer Silencerco Stocking Distributor

October 24, 2010, 03:06 PM	#8
MrM4 Senior Member Join Date: June 27, 2008 Location: SOUTH DAKOTA Posts: 106	There is a trend of poor customer service from SOTs, that is pretty much fact. For the record a few of us SOTs understand that and make apoint not to be one of those guys, but in general it seems to be true. __________________ FUN GUN SHOOT South Dakota's Largest Machine Gun Shoot www.fungunshoot.com Last edited by MrM4; October 24, 2010 at 04:06 PM.

October 24, 2010, 09:07 PM	#10
baffledcan Member Join Date: October 22, 2010 Location: East Oregun Posts: 18	I can see why the ATF is tough on dealers as most are selfish dirtbags that just wanna accumulate a personal arsenal and could care less about service to customers. The dealers I've dealt with though good guys in person and never screwed me over major were pretty uncaring in getting my form 4 out and informing me when it arrived. They just hold onto my form & stamp and toy until I contact them as though they are doing so much for me by filling out a few lines on a form 4 and sending it out.

October 24, 2010, 11:55 PM	#11
MrM4 Senior Member Join Date: June 27, 2008 Location: SOUTH DAKOTA Posts: 106	I will never understand why a dealer is not in a hurry to get a item transfered that has been approved, I don't want anything sitting in my shop for a long period of time that has been transfered. The Risk of loss by theif or fire are good reason to what those items moved, if I transfer a MG for someone I want it in and out of the shop as soon as the paper work is done. I think most dealers just dont care, many have the line of thinking that says something along the lines of " they waited 3 months whats 2 more weeks until I get time to mess with it". Its a poor way to due business but it seems common. __________________ FUN GUN SHOOT South Dakota's Largest Machine Gun Shoot www.fungunshoot.com

October 21, 2010, 03:18 PM	#2
demigod Junior member Join Date: March 13, 2008 Location: AZ Posts: 1,129	I think many dealers are basically flakes. It's like a prerequisite or something.

October 21, 2010, 05:05 PM	#4
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	Price it correctly and it will be gone in one day. If you think you need to hold out for retail price then you might as well keep it. Post an add here for $5 with the gun being $2000 and toss the silencer in the chipper shreader and it will sell. [/url]http://www.subguns.com/classifieds/?db=nfafirearms&category=All+Items+in+this+Category&query=category&search_and_display_db_button=on&results_format=headlines[/url]

October 22, 2010, 05:23 PM	#5
baffledcan Member Join Date: October 22, 2010 Location: East Oregun Posts: 18	Most all class 3 dealers arent very good in the customer service department. I think most dealers become dealers to acquire toys for themselves easier, not service or sell to the private citizens. At least thats what I've experienced.

October 23, 2010, 12:35 PM	#6
krinkman47 Junior Member Join Date: August 29, 2010 Posts: 10	you are very correct.every sot dealer i have done business with are the scum of the earth.If i would run my business like the scum sot dealers i would been gone 32 years ago!:barf:

October 24, 2010, 03:33 PM	#9
snipecatcher Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 314	Agreed. I've personally dealt with one dealer that is a through and through lying scumbag (and everyone who works for him) and have heard of several others. The whole system is flawed.

October 25, 2010, 12:05 PM	#12
krinkman47 Junior Member Join Date: August 29, 2010 Posts: 10	the abuse of the scum sot dealers makes me want to quit buying nfa toys.It not like i am trying pre 86 m16 for 500.00.I never seen anything in my life like this kind scum.:barf: does anybody know sot dealer in mo.i could deal with.thanks.ps if i find any pre 86 m16 for 500.00 i will post

November 18, 2010, 07:03 PM	#13
Ropin4gold Member Join Date: November 19, 2007 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 44	How about posting some names..... Both good and bad dealers so consumers can know where to spend thier $$$$

November 18, 2010, 08:46 PM	#14
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	subguns.com has a list of recommended dealers. They used to list bad dealers but that does not work out so well. Some dealers are so bad that posting against them is not even a safe thing to do. If you dealers time is only worth a $25 transfer fee that might be your first indication that things are not going to go well long term.

November 18, 2010, 08:50 PM	#15
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	In MO I would work with this guy if possible. There are two dealers I would. Denny's Guns - Dennis Foutch Specialties: Class 3 2001 Clay St. North Kansas City, MO 64116 Phone: (816) 221-9117 FAX: (816) 221-1171 E-mail: [email protected] http://www.globaltactical.com

November 20, 2010, 09:23 PM	#16
xrageofangelsx Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2004 Location: Ohio, Indiana and sometimes Kentucky. Posts: 410	We seem to have the opposite of this problem in Indiana. There are several quality Class III dealers. Bartee Transfers in Bargersville, IN. SSNFA in Hendricks CO, IN. 21st Century Firearms in Bluffton, IN. They are all excellent businesses to work with. Definitely sorry to hear about poor customer service from other places. I do see that a lot in several gun stores, not just SOT/FFLs... I've been to several shops where it is as if your mere presence in the store is offensive. __________________ Caution: Author suffers from foot in mouth disease.

November 21, 2010, 03:04 AM	#17
garyhan Member Join Date: June 22, 2008 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 90	In Oregon, Pat Murphy (Oregon Research Labs LLC) is great. He is located in Vernonia. Get something from him and you'll probably end up shooting more dollars worth of ammo in his sub guns and suppressed weapons than he makes on the deal. gary

November 23, 2010, 04:34 PM	#18
richmondtx Member Join Date: December 19, 2009 Location: The Lone Star State Posts: 39	Mike Trent in Houston is a great guy, he has done 3 MG and 4 Silencer as well as 1 SBS X-fers for me, all went off without a hitch except for the the 1st MG..which was a paperwork SNAFU. He charges 50-100 bucks per NFA X-fer depending on the item. His contact info is: 1425 N Durham Dr. Houston, Tx 77008 [email protected]

November 23, 2010, 04:38 PM	#19
richmondtx Member Join Date: December 19, 2009 Location: The Lone Star State Posts: 39	On another note, I'm currently dealing with a dealer in OH, that wanted to sell a MG, but might have had a change of heart. Can't get him to respond to any emails, or messages I've left for him at the store...I'm glad I found this out BEFORE sending him money.

November 26, 2010, 06:51 PM	#20
Arizona Fusilier Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2000 Posts: 1,082	Most Class III dealers love guns; a laudable point. I suspect, like others who have posted here, its good way to accumulate ones toys. Unfortunately, a love of firearms does not translate to business savvy, whether you are a dealer, gunsmith, or whatever. More to the point, Class III dealers tend to have their operation built around an increasingly obsolete business model: that of the middleman with the monopoly on information. Not only info on the market, but the whole BATFE bureacracy, which for the neophyte, is intimidating indeed. With the advent of the internet, the middleman/information broker adds little value to most transactions, IMO.

January 9, 2011, 08:34 AM	#21
mdshooter Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2002 Location: South-Central PA Posts: 143	Two fellows I have dealt with who are honest and responsive: http://www.davidspiwak.com/ http://www.dealernfa.com/ I have bought from, but never sold to these guys, and give them high marks for honesty and integrity. __________________ When did ignorance become a point of view? NRA Life Member GOA Life Member

January 9, 2011, 08:53 AM	#22
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	Most Class III dealers love guns; a laudable point. I suspect, like others who have posted here, its good way to accumulate ones toys. Unfortunately, a love of firearms does not translate to business savvy, whether you are a dealer, gunsmith, or whatever. More to the point, Class III dealers tend to have their operation built around an increasingly obsolete business model: that of the middleman with the monopoly on information. Not only info on the market, but the whole BATFE bureacracy, which for the neophyte, is intimidating indeed. With the advent of the internet, the middleman/information broker adds little value to most transactions, IMO. Go ahead and get your license and with all your grand ideas run a business and show us all how it is done.

January 14, 2011, 04:29 PM	#24
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	If you're near Philly, look up Dr. Dennis A. Todd - Great to deal with. He's also got an island of tables at the Knob Creek shoot/shows... __________________ Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist. And making the world's greatest bottle openers!

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search