3000 fps for 30/06

[ky hunter]

i have a 30/06 28 inch barrel encore. i would like to shoot a 165 grain bullet at 3000 fps+. and it still be accurate. i would like to know how to achieve this.

[crimsondave]

With a 28" barrel, you MIGHT, and I mean MIGHT get there with Winchester 760. IMR 4350 and N160 would be 2 other choices. You are asking alot from a 30-06 at that heavy a bullet.

IMR 4064 and a 150 gr bullet would put you at 3000 fps easily.

[jimkim]

First thing you should do is read your manual. Follow the directions in the book for SAFELY working up a load. Then if your rifle can SAFELY handle the maximum loads(IMR or H-4350) from the Hodgdon website, you should easily be there with that barrel length.

[ky hunter]

How about RL22

[ky hunter]

What about H1000?

[reloader28]

I think you'll be lucky to do it with 165's.
I use 150's and am at 3015fps and in my gun thats the as high as I can go. According to all the books it is to. But thats where it shoots the best. I just cant use those loads in warm weather.

[jimkim]

I picked IMR and H-4350 because those were the only powders on Hodgdon's website knocking on the 3000fps threshold. Hodgdon's maximum load of H-4350 is 59.0gr for 2938fps. I'd bet with the extra barrel length you would pick up at least 75fps.

Velocity loss (or gain)

It is worth noting that the velocity figures published in ammunition brochures and reloading manuals are sometimes taken in barrels different in length from those supplied on many rifles. I have seen various estimates of how much velocity is lost (or gained) when a barrel is not the same length as the test barrel in which a cartridge was chronographed. Here are some of them.

The 2001 Edition of the Shooter's Bible states, in the introduction to the Centerfire Rifle Ballistics section, "Barrel length affects velocity, and at various rates depending on the load. As a rule, figure 50 fps per inch of barrel, plus or minus, if your barrel is longer or shorter than 22 inches." However, they do not say what category of load to which this 50 fps average pertains.

Jack O'Connor wrote in The Rifle Book that, "The barrel shorter than standard has a velocity loss which averages about 25 foot-seconds for every inch cut off the barrel. Likewise, there is a velocity gain with a longer barrel." He went on to illustrate this using a .30-06 rifle shooting 180 grain bullets as an example, so his estimate was obviously for rifles in that general performance class.

Other authorities have tried to take into account the different velocity ranges within which modern cartridges operate. The Remington Catalog 2003 includes a "Centerfire Rifle Velocity Vs. Barrel Length" table that shows the following velocity changes for barrels shorter or longer than the test barrel length:

MV 2000-2500 fps, the approximate change in MV per 1" change in barrel length is 10 fps.
MV 2500-3000 fps, the approximate change in MV per 1" change in barrel length is 20 fps.
MV 3000-3500 fps, the approximate change in MV per 1" change in barrel length is 30 fps.
MV 3500-4000 fps, the approximate change in MV per 1" change in barrel length is 40 fps.

The 45th Edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook also has a table showing Center Fire Rifle Velocity Vs. Barrel Length. Their figures apply to barrels between 20 and 26 inches in length and agree with the Remington figures. The Lyman table shows the following approximate velocity changes:

For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 1000-2000 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 5 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 2001-2500 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 10 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 2501-3000 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 20 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 3001-3500 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 30 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 3501-4000 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 40 fps.

The 43rd edition of the Lyman reloading Handbook gave some concrete examples of velocity loss for specific calibers and loads. The Lyman technicians chronographed some high velocity cartridges in rifles with barrels ranging in length from 26 inches down to 22 inches with the following results:

The average loss for the .243 Win./100 grain bullet was 29 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .264 Win. Mag./140 grain bullet was 32 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .300 H&H Mag./220 grain bullet was 25 fps per inch.

For standard high intensity cartridges in the same test, the Lyman technicians chronographed the cartridges in barrel lengths ranging in length from 24 inches down to 20 inches with the following results:

The average loss for the .270 Win./130 grain bullet was 37 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .270 Win./150 grain bullet was 32 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .300 Sav./180 grain bullet was 17 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .30-06/180 grain bullet was 15 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .35 Rem./200 grain bullet was 11 fps per inch.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_barrel.htm

The published(Hodgdon and Alliant) max loads for H1000 and RL22 don't come anywhere near 3000fps.

[SL1]

It suggests that a load at the SAAMI maximum peak pressure limit of 60,000 psi would be able to make something like 3050 fps out of a 28" barrel with the right powder.

A lot of the powders it suggests are compressed loads, with up to 5% compression. My experience with QuickLOAD tells me that it is not that good at predicting the load where compression really starts. So, I typically try to pick a powder that it says does not require it. Top powders that don't require compression are Reloader 17, Winchester 760, Ramshot Big Game, and Hodgdon H414. I am not familiar with any of those, so I can't actually recommend any of them. Also, be advised that QuickLOAD often showes separate results that differ by over 100 fps for two powders that are supposed to be "the same thing". So, the actual lot of powder will have an influence on whether you make 3000 fps within SAAMI max pressure. Of course, if you don't mind missing your 3000 fps goal by a few fps, then there are additional powders to consider. And, if you restrict yourself to cup-and-core bullets (leaving out the Barnes all-copper ones and their counterparts from other manufacturers), then there are more powders that appear to make the 3000 fps goal.

And, of course, Encores have been chambered to shoot cartidges with similar or larger head diameters that are loaded to slightly higher pressures, so you could decide to exceed SAAMI max by a little and go to 62,000 psi or even 65,000 psi.

But, you are definely pushing it to get to 3000 fps with a 165 grain bullet in this cartridge. If it were a bolt-action, I would be a lot more comfortable trying it than with an Encore. I know that my old Contender is not really as strong as it was once considered to be by the loading manuals. I know that the Encore is considerabley beefed-up from the original Contender, but is is still probably not as strong as a good bolt-action. The gun might not blow-up, but maybe it could stretch the frame and ruin the gun, or even unlock and throw the case back. (Contenders were notorious for doing that with really high-power loads if the action was closed on a just-barely-too-long case or if the locking mechanism was damaged or worn from having fired too many loads with cases that were not sized quite enough.)

If you do decide to try it, then get back to us with some particulars like the bullet you want to use, its length, the COL you would load it to, and the water capacity of a case that was fired in the gun that you intend to use. Then we can narrow-down the calculations and tell you what looks like the best powders to actually try.

SL1

[Mike / Tx]

I have done it using RL-22, however here are a couple of things you will want to consider. It worked but I only used it for one season and then abandoned it for better loads.

1) work your load up in the "hottest" temperature conditions you will ever likely shoot it in, and be prepared to purchase several pounds of the same lot of powder, bullets, and primers, that your working with. Subtle changes will effect the end result of the loads. The RL line of powders has been known to change in burn rate enough to effect top end loads pretty significantly from one lot to the next. Also when your at this level you can easily have bullets which are a tad longer on the profile or primers that a bit hotter or colder which will effect the end load pressures. When your at these velocities with this weight in this caliber, your on the top end, no ands, ifs, or buts, about it. Also being your looking at this from the Encore aspect, I might tend to advise against it. The action might not be up to the higher pressure.

2) I highly suggest using a magnum primer, IF you decide to pursue this development, as in colder temps the compressed load you will end up with, is quite a bit harder to light off reliably.

Like I mentioned I had a specific use for this particular load, and I worked it up very cautiously. The original load used standard primers which once the temperature dropped into the mid to low 30's would not light off the powder completely. It simply blew the bullet out to around 200yds along with about a third of the powder left on the bench in front of the rifle. Switching to the magnum primer, it would light it all off, however the load was not reliable for accuracy except withing a vary narrow range. Bottom line, I dropped the idea and settled on another powder, lower velocity, and greater and consistent accuracy.

If your looking to max the load out you might as well jump up to the 300 Win Mag and be happy. You can easily load this down or up in velocity and get better accuracy at sane pressures with a much wider selection of components.

For this load I used Winchester cases, Win primers(LR-LRM), and Nosler 165gr BT bullets. All components were of the same lots as to keep things to a somewhat controlled level. You will also find, IF you decide to go this route, your cases will only last about 2-3 loads at max before the primer pocket opens up to an unusable state. I started off with 100 new cases and ended with around 30 that I ended up pulling and dumping the load.

Good luck and be careful.

[ky hunter]

Nosler's web site has RL22 getting their with a 165gr.bullet.But it seemed like a lot of slow burning powder. That's why I asked about RL22 & H1000 because there so close in burn rate. Thanks for all the INFO. Please keep it coming.

[Bart B.]

Why do you want to shoot 165's from a .30-06 out at 3000 fps?

What's your number 1 objective?

Is it important to keep pressures at normal safe levels?

[ky hunter]

i want a bullet i can take any where and hit anything with. from zero to six hundred yards

[Nomadicone]

If it was me I would load it for 2900 fps and not push the rifle to the max. Anything you shoot and hit correctly with the right bullet at 2900 fps will go down just as quick as if you hit it with 3000 fps. Frankly, accuracy is usally a bit better at slightly under max anyway. If you are going to try for 3000 just make sure the bullet isn't touching the lands on you OAL of your handloands.

[A_Gamehog]

I would think you can beat this speed with your barrel.

These loads are made with powder not available to the public.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/61121-5.html

Just a quick way to your goal. See if it's possible with a factory load.

[TXGunNut]

I'm with Bart on this one, KY Hunter. 3000 is an arbitrary number and if going from 2900 to 3000 costs me accuracy and barrel wear then 2900 looks damned good to me. My pet load chronos closer to 2800 (24"bbl) but I'm not a long distance shooter. Knowing the distance to the target becomes crucial at around 300 yds (unless you're shooting a laser beam) and I can't tell you the distance to my front door! If I someday learn how to hit a target @ 600 yards reliably I may be able to help you but I'll be doing it with a .45-70 and black powder. For me, obviously, velocity isn't everything.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Afternoon KY Hunter,

Well first thing is, after having a chronograph for a number of years, I find most of my rifles are slower then what I had expected by looking at book velocities.

Some equal the books and a FEW are faster,

So, just because the book says it is possible to reach 3000fps, your rifle may still leave you 100 - 200fps below and you'll never know unless you shoot them over the screens.

I happen to have a "fast" RUGER 300win. mag. w/a 24" barrel from which I saw 3300fps with a 165 Nosler Partition during some tests this past Fall. The best news is, three shots went into a tad over 5/8" at 100.

However, this took a book max load of IMR 7828.

R22 works well in this larger then 06 case, but is slower by 1 - 200fps.

I would really recommend the Nosler Partition bullet or one with equal integraty if you get anywhere close to your 3000fps goal.

I don't think the loading book folks are trying to "pull" our leg, but it is very clear that guns are each a rule unto themselves which means your rifle may never equal the 3000fps you read about even if your friend's does.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[REMINGTON DUDE]

If all else fails you could just buy some Hornady Superformance, but I know thats something alot of reloaders don't want to hear

[GeauxTide]

I never got that much accuracy in the '06 after about 80% case full. In my 24" barrel, I could get 3050 with 150s but the accuracy and chrony data was terrible. Extreme spread was over 140fps. At 2950, the ES was 29fps and the groups were 7/8" until I got tired. Crimson Dave had the best advise in looking to the medium slow powders like IMR4350. I've had such good luck with IMR4831 and RL19 in the 280, you might consider those, also.

[FALPhil]

I'm thinking that it couldn't be hard with Reloder 17.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...5&cartridge=81

[qwman68]

Imr-4895 will come close. Max load was 2888 with a 165gr. Bullet. Like other posters have said, i tend to get better accuracy between 2800-2900 fps. I use imr-4895 to load 155gr. For my 30-06. At 50 grains it shoots 2850fps. And shoots sub moa.