Flat primers?

[Jerry45]

I’ve been loading for years and I’ve never had a problem (other than the primers flattening out). I’ve always gotten flattened primers in my 06 and never gave it much thought since I was either loading at starting load or just above. I’m not flattening them while priming cases.

A couple of weeks ago at the range someone looked at one of my spent .223 cases and said, “you’re loading hot.” I asked what he meant and he said your primers are flat. I said why yes they are but I’m only loading .5 gr. over starting load. He said his primers don’t flatten out.

I’ve done ladder teats from starting load up to and exceeding max recommended load so I know it’s not overpressure causing the primers to flatten. If it were the case would have KABOOMED during my ladder tests. I’ve done/do ladder tests on every new bullet weight and load I try.

So now I’m curious. You old sages, do your primers flatted? I’ve been playing with a lot of different bullet weights and powder lately and it all flattens the primers.

Here’s what I shoot and load for the most part.

30-06 Remington 700 BDL,
Cases Remington, Primers Winchester LR.

150gr. FMJ bullet
IMR 4064 49.5 gr.

165 gr. SP bullet
IMR 4064 49.0

180 gr. SP bullet
IMR 4064 47.0

.223 Colt AR
My own once fired and different makes of range brass. Primers Wolf SR

55 gr. FMJ
Varget 26.0 gr.


.223 Savage bolt gun
Once fired Winchester brass, primers Wolf SR

55 gr. FMJ
Varget 25.5

55 gr. SP
Varger 25.5

[jimmy lowboy]

Check the headspace on your loads,or look for "tophat" primers. Do factory loads also flatten primers?

[mrawesome22]

Flat primers mean excessive headspace.

Even super light loads will flatten primers if there is a big gap between breech face and case head.

Power ignites, primer has room to back out of case, pressure builds, case head slams into breech face. With proper headspace, even loads that make the bolt hard to lift will still have a nice rounded edge.

Hornady and RCBS make some great tools for determining how far you are pushing the shoulder back. Another great thing about properly setting up your die is greatly extended case life and much reduced chances of case head seperations.

[Kayser]

FWIW, I get flat primers 100% of the time with my .357 magnum loads. I'm careful and I load mid-range stuff. Nothing fancy at all and the same as everything else I do. Never have that problem with anything else. At this point I'm about 95% convinced that it's a combination of the brass (WWB, maybe not the snuggest primer pocket?) and the primers (WSPM). The only thing I haven't tried yet is massive downloading to see if I can make it go away.

[chris in va]

An old reloader at the range looked at my 223 reloads with flattened primers. He said I needed to back off a bit, but wouldn't be concerned until the firing pin strike was also pushed out.

[Jerry45]

Factory ammo does not flatten primers.

I loaded 20 rounds of new Remington 3006 brass with 110 gr. bullet over 50.0 gr. of IMR 4064 (minim load According to Lyman manual) with Winchester LR primers, got flat primers. Factory Remington 165 gr. Core Lock from Willie World primers don’t flatten.

I’d buy the headspace theory if it was happening in one rifle. However it is happening in three different rifles. 70’s model Remington 700, 70’s mode Colt AR and a 2011 model Savage .223 bolt action.

[Jerry45]

"An old reloader at the range looked at my 223 reloads with flattened primers. He said I needed to back off a bit, but wouldn't be concerned until the firing pin strike was also pushed out."

That's what I've always heard also. Primer punch is perfect.

[mrawesome22]

You are probably pushing the shoulder back too far on all three rifles.

Measuring is the only way to know.

[Jerry45]

I don’t believe that, that’s case. I use a Lee Neck Sizing Die. I only full length size about every fifth loading. I’ve pretty much exhausted my list of possibilities, that’s why I’ve posted. I’m at a loss of why. Thanks for the suggestion.

I should also note here that the .223 that is shot in the AR is not used in the bolt gun and visa versa. The AR stuff gets loaded on a Dillon 550 and the bolt guns stuff gets loaded on a single stage. Two different sets of dies. And again the bolt gun stuff is only neck sized at least five times.

[mrawesome22]

Can you post a pic?

Neck sized brass should not be flattening primers.

[Jerry45]

30-06 is from 150 gr. FMJ over 49.5 IMR 4064 Remington 700

.223 is 55 gr. FMJ over 26.0 gr. Varget shot in the AR

The .223 shot in the bolt gun is same bullet over 25.5 varget and looks just like what you are are seeing from the AR.

The 06 cases have been fired 8 times, anealed twice and full length sized twice. After the last three fireings they have only been neck sized.

.223 have been fired three times, full length sized once, anealed once, neck sized the last two fireings.

[Jbotto]

How do you prime your cases? I have similar things happen to me with neck sized cases and starting loads. Do you have a before and after picture of what your rounds look like before you touch them off, as compared to the after effect?

[Tim R]

None of your loads seem over the top for being excessive. My book shows the '06 load to be about midrange for the 150 gr bullet. For the 165 and 180 gr bullets you could be knocking on the pressure door as you are under max, but getting close. IMR 4350 could be a tad better choice for powder IMHO.

The 223 is at starting.

I didn't see any flat primers or signs of excessive pressure in your photos. There is no radius left on the edge of a flat primer. Flat primers also fill the radius of the primer pocket.

I did not see were you said what primers you are using. It seems there have been several reports in not only in this forum but others with recent CCI primers showing false signs of pressure.

Also your working way too hard on the brass, I have some L/C 556/223 what ever with 12 loadings for a match AR. The brass is still going strong (a little beat up) but I now only use this brass for practice ammo. I have yet to loose a neck to over worked brass. I would have to check my notes on number of trims.

[Salmoneye]

Try just neck resizing...

[hooligan1]

And try the slower IMR4350.

[Cascade1911]

Have you calibrated/ checked your scale?

[mrawesome22]

Look just fine to me.

[mikld]

Primers are a poor way to tell if pressure is too high. Too many variables in primers/primer construction to be a reliable indication of chamber pressure.

When any "Range Expert", or "Gun Shop Guru" offers any advise on my reloading or load data, I usually thank them and pay little attention to what they said. Even if offered in good faith and they are trying to be helpful, free (reloading) advice is worth what you pay for it. I get all my reload data and reloading info (how to identify pressure spikes, etc.) from my published manuals...

BTW; How long have you been using that load safely and successfully?

[AllenJ]

Jerry45, in your photo I don’t see any problem with the 223 but the 30/06 is starting to show signs of primer flattening. As stated by many in this thread primers flatten out for many reasons and pressure is not always the culprit. In your case the one question I have not seen yet is are you sure the primers are being seated far enough in? When I seated primers using my press I found that many times the primers were not seated completely and I would get the same thing you are experiencing. I now use a RCBS handheld priming tool and that seems to have cured my issue.

[Jerry45]

Jbotto, I use a Lee Hand primer for the 06 and .223 bolt gun. I prime the .223 for the AR using the Dillon 550.


Tim R, I’m using Winchester LR for the 06 and Wolf SR for the .223. Yes the load for the 06 is mid range but the primers looks the same even when I shoot starting load for ladder testing. Actually I’ve gone slightly over max load testing loads. I always end up with better accuracy down in the recommended range. Point being, the primers still look the same as the ones pictured even at the top end.


As for working too hard on the brass, that’s good to hear. I was afraid I wasn’t being diligent enough.


Cascadel 1911, for the 06 and .223 bolt gun I use an RCBS load master to dish out powder. It gets calibrated, with furnished weights, every time I load. I’ve checked it against a Dillon electric (+.01 difference, Dillon reading higher) that had been checked against an RCBS beam scale (+-.02 on the Dillon).


Mikld, in the 06? 0nly 30 + years. Good point!


I’m super critical of what I load, hence my concerns with the primers since the gentleman commented about them. I never worried about them before because I was reasonable sure I was doing everything right and I don’t have anything to visually compare my rifle cartridges to. When I was competing with pistols everyone compared ammo so I knew what I was loading meet muster. That was .45 ACP and 9 mm. so I wasn’t too worried about blowing my face off. The .223 doesn’t worry me as much as the 06 but still I really don’t want a KABOOOM. Knew someone in the 70’s that blew up two rifled, Winchester 30-30 and bolt gun. I have no idea what he loaded to destroy the rifles but luckily he wasn’t hurt. Soooooo as I said I super critical when loading. If I suspect anything isn’t right I’ll dump a case in a heartbeat and start over. I’ve thrown bullets and case away that were probably good just because I didn’t like the way they looked.

AllenJ, absolutely fully seated. RCBS bench mate sized, cleaned and chamfered. Primers looked the same way even way back when I didn’t prep primer pockets. Actuall, up close an personal the .223 are flater than the 06. I always calked that up to them being copper (softer?) than the Winchester.

Thanks for all the help guys. If anyone has ANY ideas let me here them. Any information is good information.

[Wyoredman]

The primers from my loads in all my rifles look exactly the same as yours. I don't see a problem. I think you are fine.

[brickeyee]

Still round at the edges.

Absent some other signs it looks fine.

[Will Lee]

Concerning the 223 without pictures it's not possible to say if you have excessive pressure problems. Primers will always flatten out. As along as you don't see cratering you should be okay.

Here is some picture of of some rounds loaded .5 grains over published data using Ramshot X-Terminator under Barnes 55g TTSX BT.

[Jbotto]

Jerry, strangely enough I get the same happenings when I use the Lee hand prime device too on .223's. Their new priming tool is much better for me! The square tray one. I don't know if that has anything to do with your results, but it surely is an odd coincidence.

-Jbotto

[mrawesome22]

The Lyman 48th has a very good explanation of reading pressure signs that makes a lot of sense.

I'll add, using a chronograph and using good brass makes dialing in a load much easier.