Maximum "combat" range of a Snub Nose .38 Special?

[dahermit]

Speed is good, and accuracy is great... but neither is worth a darn without good target identification.

Are you saying that Bill Jordan did not know what he was shooting at?

[MLeake]

Is Bill Jordan not the former Border Patrolman who shot a fellow LEO during a raid?

Maybe I am thinking of the wrong guy.

My point is that sometimes speed is its own worst enemy.

(Edit: Just looked it up; not a raid, Jordan was practicing fast draw with an "unloaded" gun, fired through a wall, and struck BP agent John Rector in the head; 1956, Rector died.)

[Slamfire]

I think for all handguns, the extreme effective combat distance is spitting distance.

Yes, at the range, with no pressure, no moving target, you can hit things way out there. But it is an artificial environment.

I recall reading about an attempt to make a Civil War Combat course "realistic". Re enactors would come up in squads and have to hit all targets before going on to the next stage. Of course, fastest time wins.

I read that one event, the match directors had set up a tennis ball “cannon”. Squads had to shoot while under attack from compressed air artillery fire. Apparently even the threat of being beaned with a tennis ball was enough to dramatically increase the time it took to clear all targets.

[dahermit]

I

s Bill Jordan not the former Border Patrolman who shot a fellow LEO during a raid?
Maybe I am thinking of the wrong guy.
My point is that sometimes speed is its own worst enemy.

It was not a "speed" incident, it was a "careless" incident that apparently happened not on a raid, but in the office. Scroll down in this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i...p/t-34879.html

[James K]

For a long time I carried a 3" square butt Model 36; it has a hammer spur but I fired it only in DA since I found I could shoot it as well that way as SA. I could hit a silhouette target at 100 yards almost every shot, firing off hand, though the holdover was considerable. With a rest, every shot was a hit. I don't know if I could have done that under stress (meaning the target was shooting back!) but those who say folks with 2-3 inch barrel revolvers can't hit anything beyond ten feet are wrong.

Jim

[JerryM]

I do not consider 100 yards "combat" range. Who thinks he would be in combat at those ranges???

Jerry

[James K]

No one would take on an armed opponent at 100 yards with a short barrel revolver IF he had a choice, and Slamfire is correct that the range is an artificial environment (but so is anything except actual combat, and no one want to practice under fire from live ammo).

But to quote an old Army saying, "you go with what you got" and if that revolver is all you got, that is what you use if the alternative is taking punishment without even trying to return fire. My point was that even at relatively long range, a short barrel revolver was better than "spitting". And if I were being fired on, I would probably not be standing up in some fancy stance; I would be diving for any cover I could find.

Jim

[1911Tuner]

Re; Dahermits question about splatter plates. These were pretty common for trick shots and merely were steel plates placed to allow the bullet fragments to spray around and do their work. I admired Jordan's expertise greatly, and what he did with the fast draw and hitting in the general vicinity of an aspirin is a major feat, but there was not direct contact between the bullets and aspirins.

I saw Jordan perform his "tricks" in person when I was 15 years old. There was no splatter plate. The only backstop was a heavy, folded blanket. The aspirin tablets were lined up on a table, about 6 inches apart. The exhibition was indoors, and he used paraffin wax bullets propelled by primers only...as was his standard practice whenever performing in public.

Jordan was so fast, that if you blinked at the wrong instant, you'd never see him move.

And he was gettin' on in years at the time.

And he never missed.

[Erno86]

I would say about 300 yards. As long as the bullet is going about 600 feet per second...it still has enough foot pounds to penetrate the lungs.

[Deaf Smith]

Is Bill Jordan not the former Border Patrolman who shot a fellow LEO during a raid?

No, he shot his partner during practice. Killed him to.

Sad but true and he had to live that down for the rest of his life.

But Jordan was a gifted shooter. Top competitor to. He also used a flamethrower on Iwo Jima in WW2 as part of the U.S. Marines.

And during prohibition he was in many a gun fight (as was Askins.)

Deaf

[QuarterHorse]

I like to PRACTICE with my SP101 DAO ringing steel at 50 yards. I'm not 100 percent with it, but, I do okay. After walking back over to the 7 yard line, I feel a lot better with it haha.

[horselips]

The snub nose revolver has an unlimited range. I once saw, in an episode of Hawaii Five-O, Steve McGarrett shoot a bad guy off the roof of a Honolulu hotel with his .38 snubby.

[Old Stony]

When you watch Bill Jordans aspirin shooting, note a metal plate they sit on. You hit the plate basically anywhere between you and the aspirin and the aspirin will disapear. Try it yourself....you won't match the speed or expertise of Jordan, but you can do it in slow time.
Terrible about his AD where the fellow officer got killed. That would have been very tough to live with

[Ferretboy]

Heres some spiffy .357 snubby shooting, not a .38 but the recoil wold be worse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq3UdULuqt8

[1911Tuner]

When you watch Bill Jordans aspirin shooting, note a metal plate they sit on.

When I saw his exhibition all those years ago, there was no metal plate. There was a table with the aspirins lined up near the edge of a flat plywood board about 6 inches apart. Seems that if there was sufficient splatter with a wax bullet to clean one aspiring off, it would have hit the one beside it...but he picked off one at a time.

And even if we assume that the bullets struck in front of the tablets and skidded in...we're looking at maybe...what...a half-inch low? That's close enough for government work in my book.

[amd6547]

I had the honor of meeting Bill Jordan at Camp Perry circa 1980, and shaking his (huge) hand.
He was once asked how he was so successful in his many gunfights...he supposedly answered that the bad guys had the habit of trying to aim.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

http://youtu.be/Tied-t1fFsk
Bob Munden makes it look easy at 200 yards.

[Kev]

I also saw an episode of CANNON where William Conrad shot a BG off of a hill probably 200 yards away, with a quick fire hip shot!!!!

I remember turning to my dad and seeing him shaking his head but holding his tongue as it was Moms favorite show after Hawaii 5-0 and Jack Lords amazing shooting abilities!

[ClydeFrog]

I recall as a teen in the mid 1980s, of a scene in the popular cop drama: Miami Vice, where Dade County Metro Det Sgt Rico Tubbs(Philip Michael Thomas) shot a bad guy only once at a range of approx 50ft.
In fairness, it seemed realistic, because even Tubbs stands up from cover and is surprised the one .38spl round could drop the bad guy.
Tubbs sidearm thru most of the cop series was a J frame S&W 49 Bodyguard.
A few times he used a SIG Sauer P226 9x19mm.

Clyde

[Old Stony]

Quote:
And even if we assume that the bullets struck in front of the tablets and skidded in...we're looking at maybe...what...a half-inch low? That's close enough for government work in my book.

I would call it phenomenal in my book...We probably all wish we could have the dedication to learn such skills as Jordan had.

[SgtLumpy]

I've met a lot of phenomenal shooters in my life. Pistol, shotgun et al. Never once, did any of them say "I have a gift for shooting well". Nor did any of them say "My gun is incredibly accurate". Every one of them DID say "I practice a LOT".

We were all born ugly and wet.


Sgt Lumpy

[deepcreek]

If the snubby has 5rds that makes the "maximum combat" range pretty close for me. 15'-25' ft. Basically what I can consonantly hit a paper plate with in a hurry.

People do this and that, jump houses with motorcycles, water ski with a dog on their head, shoot pennies in the air.

[amd6547]

Well, I do get slightly annoyed when people claim some sort of magical self defense range limit as an if it were written in stone.
I know what I am capable of doing with a decent handgun at 50, even 100 yards. I'm not speaking of snubs here, but 9mm's or other full sized service pistols.
If someone is shooting at me from 50ft, I am going to assume he is as capable a shot as me.
I do spend some time in the outdoors...I have backpacked in remote areas, and encountered a strange individual or two. It always occurred to me that the ability to shoot long range could come in handy...especially in these days of backwoods meth labs and weed plots...or just drunken rowdies looking for entertainment.
With that in mind, I always try to stretch the range of any handgun I carry.
While situational awareness and avoidance is first, escape and evasion is second...being able to place some well aimed shots at long range can certainly aid the later.
Besides, after learning to shoot long range, short range is easy.

[SgtLumpy]

People do this and that, jump houses with motorcycles, water ski with a dog on their head, shoot pennies in the air.

Yes they do. Ordinary people. Soccer moms and shop teachers and grocery clerks. All they have to do is 1) practice, 2) not listen to people who tell them "that can't be done" and 3) practice some more.


Sgt Lumpy

[deepcreek]

Yes they do. Ordinary people. Soccer moms and shop teachers and grocery clerks. All they have to do is 1) practice, 2) not listen to people who tell them "that can't be done" and 3) practice some more.

Self defense and life or death situations is usually not the place to plain on using performance stunts. Usually people find tactics that work a large percentage of the time because they will be gambling their lives on them.

Reminds me of some karate people that train in fancy stunts then get surprised when they get their face pounded in because they fancy stuff didn't work out in real life.