Body Armor Review Thread

CaptainObvious · March 21, 2012, 09:49 PM

I thought I might start a thread where we can review our body armor...that is if you have and wear one. I will start off with the vest I use most often

Second Chance Monarch Level II with SPA+FRP carrier

The "FRP" stands for First Responder Protection. Basically, this carrier can fit ALL IMPAC threat plates to include their rifle plates. I dont have those rifle plates, but I will demonstrate in this picture just how much you can fit in there if you really wanted to.

The Protec Impac RT PLUS rifle plates which can fit in there go for about $200 a piece over at Chief. Most of the time I will have just one trauma plate in the carrier depending upon how hot its outside and what I have to do. I like the Dyneema-like plate by PPE. It weighs about a 1/4 pound, its hard and can stop 44 magnum stand alone. If someone hits it with their fist then their hand is going to hurt.

I've worn other vests and this one seems comfortable enough. No complaints. Actually, I feel cooler in this vest then my older ABA IIA vest. I guess its all the design of the carrier which makes the vest cooler or hotter. I prefer the Level II versus the Level IIIA version. I have a joke that the Level IIIA version feels like I am walking around with a dentists x-ray vest on all day. I can't seem to concentrate with the IIIA version on nor can I move effectively. So my choice was Level II.

Point Blank has a type of armor called KXP. They have a IIIA version which is just as thin and light as a Second Chance Monarch Level II. I would love to try that one, but I didnt have any choice in the brand...just the threat level.

TheGoldenState · March 21, 2012, 10:02 PM

Are you a LEO wearing this on duty?

I would want something that is also puncture resistant.

CaptainObvious · March 21, 2012, 10:45 PM

If you find yourself getting stabbed then you did something wrong...

twobit · March 22, 2012, 08:17 PM

We don't need to talk about body armor specifics on a public internet. Too much information for the other side. They (the criminals) don't need to know about the particulars and yes they read these forums too! Wear at least the threat level that will stop your duty round. If you are a LEO you need to learn where not to discuss certain things. Nuff said.

CaptainObvious · March 22, 2012, 09:16 PM

Everything I post here is public information easily found on the internet and through other sources. In fact, the body armor manufacturers each have a website with exact specifics. There are youtube videos demonstrating each aspect of body armor from people getting shot to taking apart the armor to see whats inside. Actually, Second Chance produced videos for a while of officers telling their story and demonstrating the armor. There are wikipedia entries which tell in exact detail the history of armor. So all this is public domain and easily found.

As for the "other side" wearing armor, they don't. Its expensive, it slows them down, its uncomfortable, it attracts attention and its just not socially acceptable as they look about 20 lbs heavier. The "other side" wants to avoid detection and they cant do that wearing a IIIA vest which is not really concealable even though its advertised as such.

I would argue that a thread on body armor is the responsible thing to do seeing how there is so much misinformation out there on the topic. A few years ago I got a kick out of seeing how the media touted the importance of body armor for troops. It was non-stop day and night talking about how the troops did not have adequate body armor. However, those members of the media reporting it have never worn body armor for a day outside in the heat. If they had known the real story on armor they would know why troops were never issued them in the 80s or 90s. Having a rifle plate on front, back. sides, groin, etc is like manuevering around with two bowling balls attached to you. That is the main reason why armor was never standard issue to the troops in the past because it just slows you down and it was very much available in the 80s and 90s. In the 80s, Second Chance developed rifle plate armor which was so good that you could take M80 ball multiple times point blank range. They actually demonstrated this with real humans and not clay.

Knotwright · March 23, 2012, 05:02 AM

Anyone ever try Dragon Skin?
I have heard conflicting reports.

Thanks

CaptainObvious · March 23, 2012, 08:49 AM

There are different standards out there in regards to body armor. The United Kingdom, for example, has their own standards which are different then those in the United States.

For professional users in the United States, the only armor you should consider is the ones on the NIJ list. No body armor and/or plate is IIA, II, IIIA, III, IV or anything else until it makes this NIJ list. If its not on the list and/or over 5 years old then it shouldnt be used:

http://www.nij.gov/nij/topics/techno...stic-armor.htm

"Dragon Skin" is used in different applications by different people around the world, however, it is not approved for use by NIJ so it does not meet the standard for professional users in the United States. The NIJ is a professional organization and has a lot of experience in this area. They have been testing vests for a while now and their staff are experts in this area. They do have their reasons for not approving that armor. On the other hand, news shows like 60 Minutes and other media outlets have not been testing body armor for many years and do not have any expertise in this area. So what you see on the news should be taken with a grain of salt and many news reports have been inaccurate over the years such as Al Gore winning the election in 2000.

Many police departments test out armor themselves before making a big purchase to make sure it meets the standard. There is no large department out there who will simply trust the findings of NIJ. So its important to note which armor is used most frequently by the various departments.

http://ddq74coujkv1i.cloudfront.net/...ey_Results.pdf

https://www.bja.gov/Publications/PERF_BodyArmor.pdf

The brand most often used by large law enforcement agencies, like the NYPD, is Second Chance. Second Chance has merged with other body armor makers like SafariLand and American Body Armor so its basically one big company now. Another name which is often seen is Point Blank.

So I would stick with either the Second Chance/American Body Armor/Safariland enterprise or Point Blank purchased from an authorized distributor who properly fits you with said vest. I would certainly not buy one over Ebay, Gunbroker or any of those other sites. I would not buy a vest which hasnt been properly fitted. When I mean "properly fitted" I mean by a person authorized to conduct such fittings by the body armor manufacturer. A vest that is not properly fitted will not offer the maximum amount of protection.

As for George Bush, he wears American Body Armor. So believe me, that Second Chance enterprise is trusted by many many people to include 50,000 officers on the NYPD. In my opinion, you cannot go wrong with that Second Chance enterprise:

911: President George W. Bush at World Series, 10/30/2001. by The U.S. National Archives, on Flickr

Knotwright · March 23, 2012, 06:06 PM

Thanks,
I brought it up because it was mentioned by Chris kyle in his Autobiography American Sniper (great book BTW that I highly recommend). I had not heard of it before.

Chris credits the Dragon Skin stuff with saving his life from 2 separate AK47 rounds. He mentioned the light weight made it completely wearable, (as opposed to a full plate system) hence he had it on, hence it saved his life.

After looking into the stuff I heard rumour political pressures were against the stuff, but who knows?
Just curious more than anything.

CaptainObvious · March 23, 2012, 06:39 PM

Actually I do know. Here is a copy of the powerpoint which details the US Army's concerns with that particular armor.

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...00121may07.pdf

Double Naught Spy · March 23, 2012, 08:41 PM

Quote:

If you find yourself getting stabbed then you did something wrong...

Same with being shot. That is the purpose of the armor, in part, to protect you from things that you can't otherwise handle and to do so in a passive capacity.

Thanks for the dragon skin PP information. Not all of the pages came up for me at first, but did after a while.

Quote:

After looking into the stuff I heard rumour political pressures were against the stuff, but who knows?
Just curious more than anything.

I seem to recall the folks from Dragon Skin claiming the tests were unfair or otherwise biased against their product...which may be the "political" aspect you mentioned. The concept for dragon skin was very good, but where they had trouble was in implementation. From I have read and seen, dragon skin armor may be one of the better choices for personal home defense armor where you don't expose the armor to temperature extremes, petroleum products, droppage, etc.

Interesting that the guy of the sniper book claimed the vest to be lightweight. It isn't. It is more flexible, but not lightweight.

CaptainObvious · March 23, 2012, 11:18 PM

Multi threat IIIa body armor is thicker and heavier then regular IIIa. Hard trauma plates and the soft armor do provide a degree of protection from sharp objects but you need multi threat for true stab or spike protection. Try wearing that armor for more then a day though and you will see what I mean.

If you are wrestling someone with a knife then there is probably something wrong with your tactics and how you handled the situation.

How Dragonskin works is the weight is distributed more even and is flexible. The plates on regular armor do not flex and the weight is not distributed. There are other variations on rifle plate out there besides those two designs. I know Second Chance had a good design back in the 80s which never caught on. They would test their rifle plate out with real humans wearing it firing at close range M80 ball with the arm of the free world. Now thats effective rifle plate.

March 21, 2012, 09:49 PM	#1
CaptainObvious Junior member Join Date: February 5, 2012 Posts: 73	Body Armor Review Thread I thought I might start a thread where we can review our body armor...that is if you have and wear one. I will start off with the vest I use most often Second Chance Monarch Level II with SPA+FRP carrier The "FRP" stands for First Responder Protection. Basically, this carrier can fit ALL IMPAC threat plates to include their rifle plates. I dont have those rifle plates, but I will demonstrate in this picture just how much you can fit in there if you really wanted to. The Protec Impac RT PLUS rifle plates which can fit in there go for about $200 a piece over at Chief. Most of the time I will have just one trauma plate in the carrier depending upon how hot its outside and what I have to do. I like the Dyneema-like plate by PPE. It weighs about a 1/4 pound, its hard and can stop 44 magnum stand alone. If someone hits it with their fist then their hand is going to hurt. I've worn other vests and this one seems comfortable enough. No complaints. Actually, I feel cooler in this vest then my older ABA IIA vest. I guess its all the design of the carrier which makes the vest cooler or hotter. I prefer the Level II versus the Level IIIA version. I have a joke that the Level IIIA version feels like I am walking around with a dentists x-ray vest on all day. I can't seem to concentrate with the IIIA version on nor can I move effectively. So my choice was Level II. Point Blank has a type of armor called KXP. They have a IIIA version which is just as thin and light as a Second Chance Monarch Level II. I would love to try that one, but I didnt have any choice in the brand...just the threat level.

March 21, 2012, 10:02 PM	#2
TheGoldenState Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2010 Posts: 1,191	Are you a LEO wearing this on duty? I would want something that is also puncture resistant. __________________ The Day You Get Comfortable Is The Day You Get Careless...

March 22, 2012, 08:17 PM	#4
twobit Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2010 Location: Coyote Creak, SW Texas Posts: 597	We don't need to talk about body armor specifics on a public internet. Too much information for the other side. They (the criminals) don't need to know about the particulars and yes they read these forums too! Wear at least the threat level that will stop your duty round. If you are a LEO you need to learn where not to discuss certain things. Nuff said. __________________ Twobit, Strive to live up to the opinion that your dog has of you.

March 23, 2012, 08:49 AM	#7
CaptainObvious Junior member Join Date: February 5, 2012 Posts: 73	There are different standards out there in regards to body armor. The United Kingdom, for example, has their own standards which are different then those in the United States. For professional users in the United States, the only armor you should consider is the ones on the NIJ list. No body armor and/or plate is IIA, II, IIIA, III, IV or anything else until it makes this NIJ list. If its not on the list and/or over 5 years old then it shouldnt be used: http://www.nij.gov/nij/topics/techno...stic-armor.htm "Dragon Skin" is used in different applications by different people around the world, however, it is not approved for use by NIJ so it does not meet the standard for professional users in the United States. The NIJ is a professional organization and has a lot of experience in this area. They have been testing vests for a while now and their staff are experts in this area. They do have their reasons for not approving that armor. On the other hand, news shows like 60 Minutes and other media outlets have not been testing body armor for many years and do not have any expertise in this area. So what you see on the news should be taken with a grain of salt and many news reports have been inaccurate over the years such as Al Gore winning the election in 2000. Many police departments test out armor themselves before making a big purchase to make sure it meets the standard. There is no large department out there who will simply trust the findings of NIJ. So its important to note which armor is used most frequently by the various departments. http://ddq74coujkv1i.cloudfront.net/...ey_Results.pdf https://www.bja.gov/Publications/PERF_BodyArmor.pdf The brand most often used by large law enforcement agencies, like the NYPD, is Second Chance. Second Chance has merged with other body armor makers like SafariLand and American Body Armor so its basically one big company now. Another name which is often seen is Point Blank. So I would stick with either the Second Chance/American Body Armor/Safariland enterprise or Point Blank purchased from an authorized distributor who properly fits you with said vest. I would certainly not buy one over Ebay, Gunbroker or any of those other sites. I would not buy a vest which hasnt been properly fitted. When I mean "properly fitted" I mean by a person authorized to conduct such fittings by the body armor manufacturer. A vest that is not properly fitted will not offer the maximum amount of protection. As for George Bush, he wears American Body Armor. So believe me, that Second Chance enterprise is trusted by many many people to include 50,000 officers on the NYPD. In my opinion, you cannot go wrong with that Second Chance enterprise: 911: President George W. Bush at World Series, 10/30/2001. by The U.S. National Archives, on Flickr Last edited by CaptainObvious; March 23, 2012 at 08:56 AM.

March 21, 2012, 10:45 PM	#3
CaptainObvious Junior member Join Date: February 5, 2012 Posts: 73	If you find yourself getting stabbed then you did something wrong...

March 22, 2012, 09:16 PM	#5
CaptainObvious Junior member Join Date: February 5, 2012 Posts: 73	Everything I post here is public information easily found on the internet and through other sources. In fact, the body armor manufacturers each have a website with exact specifics. There are youtube videos demonstrating each aspect of body armor from people getting shot to taking apart the armor to see whats inside. Actually, Second Chance produced videos for a while of officers telling their story and demonstrating the armor. There are wikipedia entries which tell in exact detail the history of armor. So all this is public domain and easily found. As for the "other side" wearing armor, they don't. Its expensive, it slows them down, its uncomfortable, it attracts attention and its just not socially acceptable as they look about 20 lbs heavier. The "other side" wants to avoid detection and they cant do that wearing a IIIA vest which is not really concealable even though its advertised as such. I would argue that a thread on body armor is the responsible thing to do seeing how there is so much misinformation out there on the topic. A few years ago I got a kick out of seeing how the media touted the importance of body armor for troops. It was non-stop day and night talking about how the troops did not have adequate body armor. However, those members of the media reporting it have never worn body armor for a day outside in the heat. If they had known the real story on armor they would know why troops were never issued them in the 80s or 90s. Having a rifle plate on front, back. sides, groin, etc is like manuevering around with two bowling balls attached to you. That is the main reason why armor was never standard issue to the troops in the past because it just slows you down and it was very much available in the 80s and 90s. In the 80s, Second Chance developed rifle plate armor which was so good that you could take M80 ball multiple times point blank range. They actually demonstrated this with real humans and not clay.

March 23, 2012, 05:02 AM	#6
Knotwright Junior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Posts: 2	Anyone ever try Dragon Skin? I have heard conflicting reports. Thanks

March 23, 2012, 06:06 PM	#8
Knotwright Junior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Posts: 2	Thanks, I brought it up because it was mentioned by Chris kyle in his Autobiography American Sniper (great book BTW that I highly recommend). I had not heard of it before. Chris credits the Dragon Skin stuff with saving his life from 2 separate AK47 rounds. He mentioned the light weight made it completely wearable, (as opposed to a full plate system) hence he had it on, hence it saved his life. After looking into the stuff I heard rumour political pressures were against the stuff, but who knows? Just curious more than anything.

March 23, 2012, 06:39 PM	#9
CaptainObvious Junior member Join Date: February 5, 2012 Posts: 73	Actually I do know. Here is a copy of the powerpoint which details the US Army's concerns with that particular armor. http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/...00121may07.pdf

March 23, 2012, 11:18 PM	#11
CaptainObvious Junior member Join Date: February 5, 2012 Posts: 73	Multi threat IIIa body armor is thicker and heavier then regular IIIa. Hard trauma plates and the soft armor do provide a degree of protection from sharp objects but you need multi threat for true stab or spike protection. Try wearing that armor for more then a day though and you will see what I mean. If you are wrestling someone with a knife then there is probably something wrong with your tactics and how you handled the situation. How Dragonskin works is the weight is distributed more even and is flexible. The plates on regular armor do not flex and the weight is not distributed. There are other variations on rifle plate out there besides those two designs. I know Second Chance had a good design back in the 80s which never caught on. They would test their rifle plate out with real humans wearing it firing at close range M80 ball with the arm of the free world. Now thats effective rifle plate.