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Old May 23, 2009, 02:00 PM   #1
bozhoz
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Squib load- could use some help in the diagnosis

Loaded up a batch of .45 LC for my Taurus Judge. Per the Hornady manual, I started at low powder charge and worked my way up, 5 rounds each, 0.4 grains more powder each batch. So I had 15 rounds and went to the range:

1st shot- Not very load, no recoil, smoke and flame came out of the cylinder. Had a pretty good idea of what it was... + no hole in the target, yup.. bullet lodge in the barrel about 1/2" from the end.

SO... I could use some help in diagnoses. I want to make sure it was just a low powder issue and not something more ominous before continuing:

Cases: Federal .45 LC
Primer: Remington Large Pistol
Bullet: Hornady XTP Mag 240 grain (concerned about this component)
Powder: IMR SR 4756- 7.0 grains in the shell in question


So, I have a couple issues here: 1) Bullet- my dad picked these up by mistake- These are the Hornady XTP Mag bullets, .452" diameter in which Hornady shows reloading info for the .45 LC in TC guns and also for the .454 Casull... both of which are at high velocities. I didn't think this would cause too much of a problem by loading it into my .45 LC, albeit at lower velocities.. what I don't know is, is there something inherently different about this bullet vs. the 250 gr Hornady XTP? A lot harder, etc that could cause issues at lower velocities?

2) Bullet- The bullet has a cannelure on it, so I crimped to the cannelure, which caused the OAL to be 1.65". I believe the Hornady manual calls for about 1.60" on the 250 gr.

3) Crimp- I crimped into the cannelure. It required a pretty stiff roll crimp to really lock the bullet in good and tight. Could I be over-crimping?


OK, so there are all my variables that I can think of. I know my powder charge was dead on at 7.0 grains. I know my primer was fine and my powder ignited. So is it just the combination of wrong OAL using the wrong bullet type causing the squib? Any experience in this bullet in a .45 LC is greatly appreciated.

One final thought... I am assuming in a squib load such as this, where the powder came back out through the throat, that over-pressure was not an issue in the barrel? I.E, it's probably not stress-cracked and going to blow on the next pull of the trigger? Based on the psi tables, I am guessing that I didn't even make it to 9000 psi?

Thanks all!
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Old May 23, 2009, 02:50 PM   #2
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My first thought is low powder charge,(mistakes happen),contaminated powder or primers, contact with kroil oil, wd40 will do the trick..
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Old May 23, 2009, 03:06 PM   #3
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As long as the bullets is of the right diameter and weight for the charge there is no way that a bullet or OAL can make a squib load.
I would ask some questions in return.
How did you measure your charges and what makes you sure they were correct?
The first thing I would do after a squib load is pull some and find out. To me is sounds more like no powder than any thing else. A primer alone is enough to get the bullet stuck in the barrel and with your short barreled gun I am a little surprised it didn’t clear the barrel with primer alone. One simple test since there all the same, bullet, case and powder, is to weight your loaded rounds, if any of them are off by more than 3 or 4 gr you have your culprit.
My next question is what else was in the barrel, any unburt powder?
If the powder charge was at 7 gr and everything else was right, then my second guess would be a clogged primer hole. How did the case look after firing the squib?
Since your charge of 7 GR is the minimum charge weight for a 250 GR Hornady XTP (which is the only load close to your that I have) is rated at 574 fps and 8700 psi over pressure is not an issue once the bullet leaves the chamber the pressure decreases not increases.
"I crimped into the cannelure" Is the correct OAL.
I have never used Hornady’s “MAG” bullets but my guess would be the only difference is a thicker jacket that would allow it to be pushed harder but again this might effect accuracy at lower velocities but not produce a squib load.
“Could I be over-crimping?” If you were over crimping it would cause higher pressure not lower. Do the cases look deformed in any way from the crimping?
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Old May 23, 2009, 03:22 PM   #4
bozhoz
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Thanks for the followup Ozzie. Here are some answers to your questions:

1) I am sure that the weight is correct for 2 reasons... a) I weighed each charge on a digital scale b) upon loading all cartridges (7.0, 7.4, 7.8) I weighed each assembled bullet again, the total variance was give or take 2 grains (assuming bullet weight/case weight and obviously powder weight variances). So I am sure the charge was correct.

2) Did not notice any unburnt powder in the barrel, however I can see a section of rifling that appears to have been dinged up pretty good. Trying to examine this more carefully to see if this is copper fouling or damage to the steel barrel (which it looks like).

3) I agree with you on the "Mag" designation, I believe it is a thicker jacket, and also agree that the bullet alone should not have been the cause of the squib load.

4) Overcrimping- There was no major deformity in the case after the crimping. My heavy crimp rolled over the edge and did cause some minor bulging where it meets the bullet, but all round chambered into the cylinder fine. My concern was if I was crimping too tightly, yes it may raise the pressure, but would the tight crimp slow the bullet down... (or is the raise in pressure a net offest with the heavier crimp).

So I guess my next question would be, if I am starting at the starting load, but my OAL length was .05" longer than OAL, could this be getting me down into very low territory, thus causing the squib load?

My next obvious step is to try shooting the 7.8 grain bullets and see how they perform.
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Old May 23, 2009, 04:14 PM   #5
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Dont forget to fix the barrel.
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Old May 23, 2009, 04:32 PM   #6
Ozzieman
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Well since it’s not a powder problem, then it has to be a primer, or flash hole problem. Does the primer/primer pocked look different in any way?
The #2 dinged up pretty good??????? Better get some photos, and then contact the manufacture. How many rounds has the gun had through it?
I wonder what the possibility is to a failed bullet, but even with low level pressure of these it still should have cleared the barrel.
Have you removed it from the barrel yet? And what does it look like?
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Old May 23, 2009, 04:43 PM   #7
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You do have 4756 and not 4759 right had to ask
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Old May 23, 2009, 05:50 PM   #8
bozhoz
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Correct... It's IMR SR 4756. I will probably send the gun off to Taurus for the rifling issue (noticed a rough spot in that exact position before). Only maybe 100 rds through this so far, mostly birdshot and buckshot, some Lead .45 Colt factory ammo rounds. Always noticed the factory ammo left a lot of lead buildup. Primer and Primer pocket look pristine.
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Old May 23, 2009, 07:13 PM   #9
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Before sending it off, you should clean the bore, the see if it was fouling or damage.

Quote:
My heavy crimp rolled over the edge and did cause some minor bulging where it meets the bullet, but all round chambered into the cylinder fine. My concern was if I was crimping too tightly, yes it may raise the pressure, but would the tight crimp slow the bullet down... (or is the raise in pressure a net offest with the heavier crimp).
The diameter of the bullet before crimping was exactly what it was supposed to be. If you crimped enough to deform the bullet, whereby it increased the diameter in two small sections on either side of the crimp, then the increased diameter along with the at/below minimum charge weight may be the cause of your squib.

You stated that "flame came out of the cylinder", not the end of the barrel. It may be that the over sized bullet (which may be a harder alloy for magnum use) hit the forcing cone, slowed a bit or a good deal, entered the barrel, but without sufficient powder to overcome the barrel friction, then stuck in the barrel and the powder flamed out of the cylinder.
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Old May 23, 2009, 07:45 PM   #10
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Disregard...mis-read relevant data.
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Old May 23, 2009, 07:56 PM   #11
bozhoz
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Manley, no, it is .452"- Hornady XTP Mag, 240 grains. They also make a 250 grain XTP in the same which is the one I should have bought. The wording suggests a thicker jacket to be used in .454 Casull and TC/Ruger .45 LC velocities. Purchased by mistake. That being said, diameter is fine, perhaps it just needs a little more pressure than the 250 grain design to get out of the barrel?

Shoney- I do believe that your sequence of events is probably what happened, although I hesitate to believe that the crimping is altering the bullet diameter.

So, based on all the the above, it sounds as though, with my mixture of components, that it simply was not enough charge to get out of the barrel. Based on the IMR site, 7.0 grains of SR 4756 is the starting load, so perhaps, with the variables that I have, it is simply too low a charge? I full anticipated perhaps poor performance when starting at their recommended load, but never thought a squib would result from it? My thought process is, if 7.0 was a squib, I believe 7.4 will certainly get it out of the barrel, but probably at a very low velocity... 7.8, I am guessing will probably be running somewhere around 600 fps, and max charge is listed as 8.6. I just want to be fully certain that my train of thought makes sense, and what I am experiencing is not a symptom of a major underlying issue that could be catastrophic as I start taking the charge up.
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Old May 23, 2009, 09:20 PM   #12
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Just a stab here but I think your load is a bit light for the 240 grain bullet especially considering, you're shooting it in the Judge with the exceptionally long chamber which may be allowing the pressure to dissipate a bit.
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Old May 24, 2009, 12:09 AM   #13
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In 9mm, I'd say the 5/100 longer oal with a very light load could cause a squib.

My cleverly omitting powder from a 9mm resulted in a squib that was maybe 1/2" into the rifling of an autoloader---Federal spp.
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Old May 24, 2009, 08:24 AM   #14
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May be a good idea to having timing checked on your Taurus epecially if you've noticed any shaving.
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Old May 24, 2009, 08:27 AM   #15
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I think it was a low or no powder charge. Without any powder, a primer alone can push the bullet down into the barrel past the forcing cone. I doubt you could duplicate that with a "light" charge. This stuff usually happens to people who reload while watching television. No matter how confident you are that there was 7.0 gns of powder dropped I doubt it...because Shxt happens.
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Old May 24, 2009, 01:21 PM   #16
bozhoz
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Bill, I would generally agree with you. I am however, 100% certain that there was a powder charge and it was 7.0 grains. Flames and smoke came out of the gap between the cylinder and barrel, and the bullet was just shy of exiting the barrel by about 1/2" on a 3 1/2" barrel. I am no expert, but this was certainly not a no-powder charge.

As to the previous posting on the "timing"... can anyone explain to me what that is? I noticed one of the grooves of the rifling appeared to get some knicks in it. It doesn't appear terrible, but certainly not what I would like. I'll have to get it in to Taurus ASAP.
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Old May 24, 2009, 01:47 PM   #17
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Quote:
As to the previous posting on the "timing"... can anyone explain to me what that is? I noticed one of the grooves of the rifling appeared to get some knicks in it. It doesn't appear terrible, but certainly not what I would like. I'll have to get it in to Taurus ASAP.

Timing is correct if cyl is lining up perfectly with barrel, I had this occur on cheaper revolvers if it happens lead will shave off of the bullet at it enters barrel, not sure how this would effect a low charge or a defective primer, I was only trying to give you some more info to work with, but for sure I would have the firearm checked out.
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Old May 24, 2009, 02:49 PM   #18
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Thanks Wingman.. I'll take a look at that, as it could be coming into play on this. My initial suspicion is just too many variables in the load that boil down to it being too low of a charge for that particular firearm. Still makes me a little nervous and will do some more homework on it.
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Old May 25, 2009, 03:31 AM   #19
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Timing. Unload your weapon..

The cylinder shouldn't have any play in it when locked into single action, hammer held by your thumb and trigger pulled. Use your firing hand. Then with your weak hand check the cylinder. This is its firing position.
You didn't mention shaving but Taurus' have had timing problems. They are having several problems with a few different models in fact. They will check it all if you do decide to send it in. They do cover thier products. You can use a mirror to look into the muzzle to see if there is any sign of cylinder face in the bore. There would be some offline appearance to the chamber. I say the mirror cause I am not going to tell you to look down the barrel of your gun. Only you can choose to do that. But don't.
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Last edited by glokmunkee; May 25, 2009 at 03:51 AM.
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Old May 25, 2009, 07:40 AM   #20
wingman
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Quote:
I say the mirror cause I am not going to tell you to look down the barrel of your gun. Only you can choose to do that. But don't.
I was trying to avoid that in my previous post for if the wife or other walks
into your work area and your looking down the barrel of a Judge even though
innocent she may belief otherwise. Oh yes the gun should be empty when
doing such testing.
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