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Old October 9, 2008, 12:50 AM   #1
zxcvbob
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Ammo box OK for storing primers?

Is an ammo box strong enough to contain a few thousand primers cooking off? (is anything strong enough?) I'm trying to organize my basement and my reloading area. Right now I have boxes of primers scattered all over the place to keep from having too many gathered in one spot. But I don't want to create an additional hazard in case of a fire if the metal box is dangerous. I know they are designed to contain ammo cooking off...

It would probably be better to have a few hundred primers in the house, and the rest in a wooden strong box out in the shed. (that's where my 8-pounders of powder are, and the 1-powders are in the house.)

Mainly looking for ideas here. I have less than 20000 primers, but not much less. Thanks.
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Old October 9, 2008, 03:40 AM   #2
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It's probably not a good idea. I store my primers in a plastic cooler chest, in the garage.
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Old October 9, 2008, 05:50 AM   #3
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I use a plastic ammo box from Cabella's, only keep 3-4 thousand on hand of various type. I don't worry about them going off and causing any problem whatsover. The wife's another story, she thinks my ammo stock is going to blow the whole house up someday.
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Old October 9, 2008, 08:22 AM   #4
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I've got a few ideas of my own with regards to storage.

First, my bench is in the man cave in the basement. That means I use desiccant packs with both my powder and primers, and there's a dehumidifier that runs quite a bit down there.

I feel better with the powder and primers down there, given that most home fires burn up, and the basement tends to get flooded and not burned so much as the upper parts of the house.

In any case, smokeless powder has never scared me... the stuff simply isn't that hazardous. Now the gas can for the lawn mower in the garage, that's a damn hazard. Some of the chemicals under the kitchen sink can be trouble, too. Smokeless powder isn't a problem. So I would never keep it outside of the house in a detached shed, but that's just my opinion.

My primers are kept in a standard .50 cal US Govt ammo can with a fat pack of desiccant in there with them. The most important thing to do with primers and powder IMO are to keep them out of the hands of curious children and any wife who might spill a can by accident.
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Old October 9, 2008, 09:08 AM   #5
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NEVER enclose powder or primers in a military style metal ammo box.

I keep my primers in my reloading closet in the basement, in their original packaging, and sitting on the shelves.
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Old October 9, 2008, 09:20 AM   #6
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Powder is not to be stored in any kind of a pressure containing device (like a sealed ammo can) because powder is designed to burn and create a gas and if you put it in to a sealed container, you've made a bomb.

If you take a pile of powder and dump it in the driveway and light it, it burns with a nice little flame. It doesn't explode. If you try and contain it (like in a rifle round, or in a sealed pipe) then the gas builds and it explodes.

I don't keep my powder in any kind of a sealed or air-tight container, but I feel safe in putting my primers in an ammo can. I don't want anything to crush them and make them pop, and I don't want flame to get to them and make them pop. I also don't want humid air attacking them.

I like to use the ammo can for primers.
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Old October 9, 2008, 11:42 AM   #7
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Mike Irwin and Sevens hit it.

One thing you could do is spend some time some evening with Google doing some searches for things like "Fire Code" and "smokeless propellant storage". The various state and national fire codes have minimum standards for storage regarding methods and quanties. For what it's worth, that's what the insurance companies go with.

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Old October 9, 2008, 12:03 PM   #8
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Much is written about primers, their use and storage. Are they dangerous? NO! Will they get together and blow up on their own? No! Are they hygroscopic,(which means do they absorb humidity)? No.

The explosive pellet at the bottom of the cup is sealed with a lacquer. It's applied over the anvil as well.

Stored in their original boxes, they pose no threat to anyone. HOWEVER dumped in a glass/metal container in mass is a real bad idea.

Quit being paranoid. A little respect for them is all that's needed.
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Old October 9, 2008, 12:03 PM   #9
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Making bombs...

Zxcv Bob--
Quote:
Is an ammo box strong enough to contain a few thousand primers cooking off? (is anything strong enough?)
Well, in a word, no. As noted above, an ammo box would just make the primers into a bomb when the cooked off. I imagine a regular gun safe would contain the explosion, but everything else in the safe would get utterly damaged, and if the safe got hot enough inside to cook off the primers, it'd mean that the rest of yr house turned into an inferno, top to bottom, and a safe-full of cooked-off primers would be the very least of your worries.

The "standard wisdom" with combustibles, like smokeless gunpowder, and with explosives, like black powder, is to store them in something that will vent the gases, not contain them, when, as, and if they should commence to "go off."

So. The gun safe might be a good place to store primers--given that most house fires are put out long before the "inferno" stage. I'd feel comfortable doing so. Otherwise, I'd store 'em in a container that would vent the combustion gases, NOT an ammo can or anything like that.

Hadn't given it any thought, but Nobody Special's idea of a plastic ice chest--I'd put dessicant inside, too--might be a very good thing. Sealed from the outside against moisture, etc, but being plastic, the least pressure build-up from within would blow out the seal, pop out the drain plug, or pop the lid. And once again, if it's hot enough inside the ice chest to cook off the primers, then your house has reached the "inferno" stage; no firefighers inside at that point to be injured, and the primers--and the house--are past worrying about.
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Old October 9, 2008, 12:18 PM   #10
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Is an ammo box strong enough to contain a few thousand primers cooking off? (is anything strong enough?)....I don't want to create an additional hazard in case of a fire if the metal box is dangerous. I know they are designed to contain ammo cooking off..."

Snuffy has a bit of wisdom for you. Treat them with a bit of common sense and you will be fine.

Actually, NO, an ammo box WILL NOT "contain" them if they cook off. But, you don't really want anything that strong because it would increase the explosive release if it does go up.

An ammo box is, IMHO, an ideal storage container. After all, ammo itself is stored tightley packed in them and that includes both primers and powder! If a light steel ammo box is safe for military ammo, including rockets and grenades, it's safe for primer storage too. Actually, the lid and sides of a GI box will blow out plenty fast enough to prevent excessive pressure build up and it protects your primers from casual hazards.

Contrary to the advice of casual book learning "experts", for the last 45 years I haven't used anything else.
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Old October 9, 2008, 01:08 PM   #11
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There's a difference between primers and ammo and smokeless powder; the primers are a primary explosive and just putting too many of them together in one place makes them "a bomb" whether they are contained or not.

I store my powder in the original containers (that's not totally true; I refill the 1-pounders.) The 8's are in a wooden box out in the detached garage, the 1's are on an open shelf not too far from my reloading area.

I think I'll use several ammo cans, and only put 5000 primers (in thier boxes) per can. That should keep them from all going off at once if Something Terrible were to happen.
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Old October 9, 2008, 01:44 PM   #12
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"Snuffy has a bit of wisdom for you. Treat them with a bit of common sense and you will be fine."

Unfortunately, treating them with common sense does NOT include sealing them in an ammo can.

Primers are the only component of modern ammunition that is a true explosive.

Primer packaging is designed to mitigage (but not eliminate) the potential for one or two primers detonating setting off more than that or causing a chain reaction.

At that, it's effective. But if the can is exposed to heat of a fire, it might serve only to concentrate and escalate the force of an explosion and could potentially result in significant shrapnel being thrown with considerable force.

The ONLY way I would put my primers in a metal ammo can is if there was no way to lock the top on tightly. At that point it becomes a covered container that will vent easily and freely in case of a fire.



"After all, ammo itself is stored tightley packed in them and that includes both primers and powder!"

Comparison of apples to orangutangs.

Cartridge brass is an incredible heat sink. It can more than quadruple the time it takes for a primer to cook off. In addition, when loaded into a brass case, the primer is even better protected than when in its original packaging.

If you want to get the benefits of storing your primers in an ammo can (and 5,000 primers is a LOT of primers, by the way, people have been killed by as few as 50 primers detonating in a loading press primer tube), it wouldn't be too hard to vent the can by drilling several 4" holes in the sides and back. Those holes could then be sealed with duct tape or an acetate film that would keep the can water tight but which would blow and vent the can in case of a problem.
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Old October 9, 2008, 01:52 PM   #13
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I dunno..

If I have that many, I store them in their original packing cases. If it's good enough for UPS shipping them in, it is good enough for me to store on my shelf.
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Old October 9, 2008, 02:01 PM   #14
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Let me clarify a bit. A box, brick, or sleeve of primers sitting on a shelf is a threat to no one. They sit there minding their own business, which is waiting to be inserted into a primer pocket. They won't detonate by themselves. They need, have to have, a percussion near the center of the cup that squeezes the pellet against the anvil, SHARPLY! Then the anvil has to be held, like by the bottom of the primer pocket.

In the case of a fire, again if the entire house is engulfed, no container will prevent them from cooking off. I just don't see a 1,000 count brick all going off at once. Every primer would have to reach the exact same temperature at the same time, for them to all explode with any significant force.
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Old October 9, 2008, 02:30 PM   #15
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Quote:
the primers are a primary explosive and just putting too many of them together in one place makes them "a bomb" whether they are contained or not.
While true, storing them in the original packaging should help prevent that.

I've carefully considered primer/powder storage, and I think the plastic cooler approach is about as good as one can do short of a purpose-built magazine. It provides some temperature insulation (not enough to withstand a substantial fire, but in that case you're in trouble regardless), it can't be sealed and doesn't have the structural integrity to act as a bomb casing, and it will pop open to vent gas in case powder is somehow ignited.

The drawback to a plastic cooler is the possibility of static charge buildup. But with everything still in it's original packaging, that shouldn't be an issue. If you're worried about that, some aluminum foil lining might be helpful. (Actually, I'm surprised static electricity isn't a problem with powder measure hoppers...)

IMO, the easiest way to provide substantially better protection would be to improve the primer packaging to further isolate and shield individual primers. But who among us wants to individually re-package thousands of primers, even if we had an improved package? Besides, I suspect the factory packaging is sufficient.
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Old October 9, 2008, 03:04 PM   #16
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"Every primer would have to reach the exact same temperature at the same time, for them to all explode with any significant force."

Not quite correct.

As temperatures rise, the explosive compounds in the primers become increasingly shock sensitive, meaning that one primer popping could well start a chain reaction. In an enclosed container, the effects of primer concussion would be further increased.

And no one said the house had to be fully engulfed.

Only the area where you store your primers.
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Old October 9, 2008, 03:19 PM   #17
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I've never had a primer go bad even sitting on a basement shelf. Father Frog's site points out that modern non-corrosive primers are more sensitive to heat damage than the old corrosive ones, and that they can be destroyed by as little as one summer residing in the trunk of a car that sits in hot sun most of the day.

All that said, there's no zero chance of anything. Even the lacquer coatings don't have zero WVTR (a standard polymer specification; water vapor transmission rate) so eventually constant exposure to high enough humidity, especially at warm temperatures, will cause damage. A number of reports of primers damaged by outdoor workshop storage are around. Try searching this and other gun forums.

Primers are fairly safe at room temperature, and while there have been some examples of sympathetic detonation where primers were in contact with each other (the reason your Dillon primer feed tube has an armored sheath), it is highly unlikely in factory packaging at room temperature. Putting them in a metal box where a fire might warm them together, however, is dangerous. Once warmed, the detonation input energy threshold is lowered, making sympathetic detonation much, much easier, so even factory packaging ceases to guarantee safety at some temperature point. The hazard from the metal box is really almost as much about it creating an isothermal (uniform temperature) environment inside during a fire as it is about fragmentation. I would not want to be the fireman working near a hot metal box full of primers.

If you have high humidity and warm temperatures routinely and need to keep primers for a number of years, I would be looking at the plastic "ammo cans" sold as floating water tight containers for sporting activities. These usually have foam seals. You can always add closed cell vinyl foam insulating strip from Lowe's if they don't or if they don't appear satisfactory. One of those and a bag or two of desiccant should set you up.
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Old October 9, 2008, 05:29 PM   #18
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"There's a difference between primers and ammo and smokeless powder; the primers are a primary explosive and just putting too many of them together in one place makes them "a bomb" whether they are contained or not."

You kind of make my point. IF they go off, they will take apart any container we store them in so it really doesn't make a lot of difference. An ammo box effectively protects its contents from casual impacts and humidity in the loading room for many years of safe storage.

Since it is actually the quality of primers that could go off simultaneously, not the container, that presents the major part of the hazard how would you suggest the makers, shippers and retail outlets store their tens or hundreds of thousands of primers "safely"?

I stand by my "common sense" recommendation of storing a few thousand primers in a GI ammo box as quite safe for a reloader. But, obviously others have other ideas and solutions they are comfortable with. So be it.

I once knew a fellow who bought a brick of caps on a day of shopping with his wife. That evening he was cleaning up axxorted trash and boxes in his basement, just wadding them together and tossing the wads into his wood buring furnace in the basement. Yep, he tossed in the bag with his new brick! He said the BANG was pronounced and blew a large puff of smoke and ashes out of the stove but threre as no other damage. And there was only one detonation, it seems the whole brick got hot enough to go off in sympathy with the first one to pop.
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Old October 10, 2008, 01:17 AM   #19
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"that presents the major part of the hazard how would you suggest the makers, shippers and retail outlets store their tens or hundreds of thousands of primers "safely"?"

They store primers, and powder, in accordance with Department of Transportation or National Fire Code regulations. I can't remember which one regulates primers.

Here's some information from SAAMI...

"Modern sporting ammunition primers will not absorb moisture under normal or even severe conditions of atmospheric humidity. There is no advantage to be gained from air-tight containers. The factory containers in which they are packaged need only normal conditions of storage. They should be kept dry and not exposed to high temperatures (in excess of 150( F). If exposed to wet conditions or high temperatures, they may deteriorate, yielding misfires or poor ignition of the propellant powder."



"Storage cabinets containing only primers are recommended. These cabinets should be ruggedly constructed of lumber at least 1" nominal thickness to delay or minimize the transmission of heat in the event of fire. SAAMI recommends against storing primers in sealed or pressurized containers."


There's a lot more here at the Beartooth Bullets site.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech...h_notes.htm/60


Looking at it, though, I'm realizing that I'm storing my powder and primers in a manner not recommended in that they are both in the same closet in the basement.
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Old October 10, 2008, 04:05 AM   #20
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It's real simple. If you're worried about a fire, store your primers in a plastic ammo box, still in their original packaging.

The original packaging is designed to be non-static so you shouldn't have a problem with the plastic box. A fire will cause the box to melt and if the primers cook off, the first package to do so will probably help scatter the rest about. A full pack of 50-100 primers makes a very big bang but the flying bits are small and low powered.

I used to use an open topped (lid removed) 20mm ammo can to store bullets, powder and primers. Powder at one end, primers at the other and 500-ct boxes of bullets in the middle separated by a 1/2" plywood barrier. The only "lid" I had for it was a slide-on cardboard lid to keep dust & spiders out of the box.
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Old October 10, 2008, 12:27 PM   #21
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SAMMI: "Modern sporting ammunition primers will not absorb moisture under normal or even severe conditions of atmospheric humidity. There is no advantage to be gained from air-tight containers. The factory containers in which they are packaged need only normal conditions of storage. They should be kept dry and not exposed to high temperatures (in excess of 150( F). If exposed to wet conditions or high temperatures, they may deteriorate, yielding misfires or poor ignition of the propellant powder."

So, on the one hand primers (and powder?) "will not absorb moisture" but on the other, they "should be kept dry" and not exposed to "wet (high humidity?) conditons ... they may deteriorate, yielding misfires or poor ignition"... Okay.

I think an ammo box provides sufficent protection for caps, the original containers do nicely for powder.

You can be sure that the makers keep hundreds of thousands of primers stacked together on open shelves and so do retailers. The few primers a reloader normally keeps on hand are too minimal to be much concerned about fires.
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Old October 10, 2008, 01:39 PM   #22
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Once again you're missing the point of the problem of the container.

A strong container can result in a much more serious explosive potential.

A nice, strong container like a metal ammo can also has the potential to become shrapnel.

Remember, grenade filling is nicely protected by a strong container, and it is similar in burning rate and composition to the explosive components used in some priming compounds.



Finally, keeping something dry means not letting a leaking pipe drip on your primers, not letting water (condensation, say) collect on the surface of the container, etc.

Absorb moisture means ambient moisture from the air (humidity).

Liquid water and vapor water are significiantly different in how they can affect something.
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Old October 10, 2008, 08:50 PM   #23
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Mr Irwin is correct.

A sealed, steel ammo can that contains several one-pound canisters of powder is a potential bomb. If the powder ignites, it will produce gas pressure faster than it can be vented. Pistol powders, with their fast burn rates, would be the worst powder to contain. If you're lucky, the lid gasket fails quickly allowing some venting before the pressure breaks the hinge or the locking device.

Primers in a sealed ammo can could all ignite rapidly and nearly simultaneously. The primer material produces gasses hotter than powder with more energy. You could literally see the side of a can split before the top ruptured enough to vent the gasses.

The rules are simple... do not confine power or primers in rigid steel containers. If you want to use an ammo can, use one that is vented or make vent holes to relieve pressure and prevent rupturing. Or use a weaker material like plastic or wood.
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Old October 10, 2008, 09:27 PM   #24
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"A sealed, steel ammo can that contains several one-pound canisters of powder is a potential bomb. If the powder ignites, it will produce gas pressure faster than it can be vented."

I didn't suggest an ammo box for powder but you miss my pont; a GI ammo can is not a rigid steel container, it is specifically designed to bend and rupture with modest pressure. And, IF a brick of primers detonated, no amount of holes would make any differnce in the blast effect vs sitting on an open shelf.

For powder in a fire, the momentary pressure rise of any ignited powder in an ammo box would almost instantly drop to zero and the rest would quietly burn when the light 20 ga. steel sides of any ammo box pushes out, so no holes need be drilled. Don't confuse what happens to the powder burn rate in a gun chamber to what will happen in a lightly constructed ammo box specifically designed for that purpose. It would take a steel box with quarter inch sides - or more, considering the large internal volume of an ammo box - for that level of containment to exist.

And yes, liquid water and water vapor are indeed different in their ability to penetrate. Vapor, in the form of humidity, is in much smaller droplets, basically at the single molecule level. Such a vapor penetrates much more readily into tiny crevices than liquid.

That's just part of why a GI ammo box works so well to store primers and do it safely. But, do as you will, I don't expect to change anyones already made up mind.
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Old October 10, 2008, 10:21 PM   #25
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Let's end the discussion once and for all.

One way to tell how we can safely store primers is to look at the stringent federal hazardous materials regulations for packaging and shipping.

Check out 49 CFR, Subpart 173.62, packing instruction 133. This provides the federal requirements for packaging Primers, Cap Type, UN0044 (i.e., ALL small arms primers that we the public use).

According to the reference above, primers MUST be packaged in a certain way, but choices are allowed within certain parameters. For example:
(1) Inner packing consisting of "Trays, fitted with dividing partitions" is one option, and happens to be what you and I are accustomed to seeing.

(2) The reg above requires that if the primers are housed in trays, as mentioned in (1), then intermediate packagings are required. Sooooo, we follow the link above to page 11 of the PDF, look at the "Intermediate packagings" column for packing instruction 133, and see that we can store the tray of primers in a receptacle made of (our choice) fiberboard, wood, plastic, or METAL.

(3) Finally, the regulation gives us a choice of outer packagings, noted in the 3rd column of the same page 11 of said PDF-- steel box, aluminum box, wooden box, plywood box, and plastic box, among others.

Despite the reasoned arguments of some above, wncchester has it right. Ammo cans are a good, legitimate way to store primers, as are wooden boxes, cardboard boxes, fibreboard boxes, and plastic boxes.

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