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Old October 7, 2008, 05:07 PM   #1
jeo556
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Reloading Dies??

I'm sure that this topic has already been exhausted and I tried to use the search to find it but I couldn't find out what I needed. So here I am......
I am gettting into reloading like many others here and I wanted some feedback regarding dies. I like the idea of having a full length AND a neck resizing die and I noticed that Lee is the only company that offers both in a set, and for a really reasonable price. So whats the deal, Does Lee have a magic machining factory or are their dies of lesser quality than say, RCBS? They make a claim on thier website that their dies will make the most accurate ammunition possible, anyone know this to be true or false? I'd appreciate any advice from those that have experience with this topic. Thanks a ton.
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Old October 7, 2008, 05:34 PM   #2
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" Does Lee have a magic machining factory or are their dies of lesser quality than say, RCBS?"

Basically it comes down to two factors; 1) How much do you have to spend to feel comfortable with the dies and, 2) will you gage their quality by the ammo produced or the way they look?

Lee's dies are inexpensive because they don't spend any extra time trying to make the die's externals look impressive. But their inside tolerances and fnishes are as good as any other maker on the market, maybe better on average. The ammo made with them is as good as any except the VERY expensive, sliding chamber seaters by Forster and Redding, and even they aren't really tremendously better than Lees 'or anyone elses. Anyone wanting to argue those points needs to bring along a cartridge concentricity gage and some numbers, not just personal opinions and huff.

Lee has some very unique die designs, specifically their Collet Neck Sizer and Factory Crimp Dies. Many of us believe they are the best available for those jobs, at any price, but each has a learning curve so those who are mechanical klutzes are perhaps better served with other brand tools.

While I can use Lee's O-ring locking rings I really don't much care for them. But I don't hate them so badly that I'll pay twice the price to get the split type rings I do like.

All that said, there are indeed valid design differences between some makers dies but that is NOT based particulary on a brand name. Those who choose according to those differences, rather than price or shine, have sound reasons for doing so. For instance, I don't think Hornady's sliding rifle seaters do a thing for accuracy but they are somewhat easier to use than others, Redding and Lyman pistol dies have excellant expanders that I prefer over all others. Etc.

What I'm sorta saying is no one should be blindly loyal to any maker's tools, buy according to what actaully works best. Mostly, there is no provable average difference between the brands for actual quality.
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Old October 7, 2008, 06:04 PM   #3
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I loaded thousands of rounds with RCBS and Hornady dies fine with just their built in taper or roll crimp (built into the seating die). But then I ran into a situation where some lead 9mm bullets were expanding the case neck a tad too much and were not able to go into the chamber fully.

I bought a Wilson cartridge gauge and found the neck was out of spec. So I tried a Lee factory crimp die (FCD). One of the side benefits of the FCD is that it also sizes the outside of the neck after the bullet is seated.

Now that same 9mm load chambers perfectly and I have had no problems. I have started using a FCD with all of my semi-auto pistol cartridges in which I load lead bullets: 9mm, .40SW, .45ACP.

Another situation in which I have started to use the FCD is with semi-auto cartridges. Many of the bullets I like to use do not have cannelures for crimping on. Most rifle seating dies rely just on the neck tension to hold the bullet in place. I like to put a light taper crimp on semi-auto rile cartridges to hold the bullet more securely (not a heavy roll crimp, just a light tightening up of the neck).

If you are trying for high precision then you do not want to even taper crimp the rifle cartridge necks (as I have heard anyway). But for informal target shooting I would rather ensure the bullets don't get shoved back into the case and cause over pressure.

Short answer: if you shoot semi-auto pistol or rifle then the FCD could be pretty handy. If you shoot revolver or bolt rifles then the FCD may not be much use.

ETA: The FCD is under $10, so you can always add it to your die set later. I really have not experienced significant difference between RCBS, Hornady and Lee in terms of accuracy of reloading. I like the sliding sleeve in the Hornady TiN dies, but then my .38/.357 die does not fit the short length of my .38 special cases very well either. I have had no problem with RCBS or Lee.

Lee is way cheaper then RCBS. When I first got into handloading in the 1980s most of these dies were around $20 a set. even then I mostly bought whichever brand was on a good sale. Now RCBS is around $55 and Lee is around $35. So when I bought a set of dies yesterday to try loading .30 Carbine, I bought Lee.

I have used a simple Lee Challenger (cost $20 when I first got it) single stage press for all of my thousands of loads. I really like my RCBS powder measure with micrometer, and the old RCBS 1010 balance scale. But with prices going up I'll probably go back to buying more Lee equipment.
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Old October 7, 2008, 07:22 PM   #4
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wncchester good post. jeo556 I don't have any experience with the collet neck sizer because all of my rifle reloading is for a AR 15. I have heard some great reviews for the Lee collet neck sizer and recently read a post where somebody tested it with other brand dies and proved he got more accurate ammo with the Lee die, but take that for what it's worth. I load only with Lee dies and don't have a lot of experience with other brands but am very happy with the ammo my Lee dies make. I also like how easy the Lee dies are to use. I loaded on a friends Dillon 550 with Dillon dies and once they were setup they were fine. They were a pain to adjust because every time you wanted to adjust the seater die you had to screw the die in or out. With Lee die you just adjust the knob on top, much faster and easier. I also like the fact that Lee includes the shell holder with their die set where others don't. Welcome.
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Old October 8, 2008, 01:39 PM   #5
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I have never tried Lee's dies - but I know they are cheaper at under $ 40 a set for pistol dies.

I have used Hornady's dies a little, RCBS dies for many years, and for the last 5 years or so, I have used Dillon's dies - all 3 worked very well. All 3 of these companies die sets, at least for pistols, are about the same price these days and around $ 55 for a 3 die pistol set . Of the 3 companies I've used, I do like Dillons quick release for cleaning inserts or removing a stuck case. I'm not sure that option is worth $ 15 to you - but I also don't know how you could ever tell if there was a quality difference in Lee vs the other 3 companies.

One commenter told you Lee's dies were not as polished from the outside - I think that is true - and frankly it makes me wonder what's on the inside that we can't see. For a difference of $ 15 a set - I'd recommend you go with Hornady, RCBS or Dillon dies. Over the life of the dies / $ 15 isn't very significant - and I doubt anyone will tell you that Hornady, RCBS or Dillon dies are junk.
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Old October 8, 2008, 03:40 PM   #6
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I have two experienced reloading friends that stuck rifle cases in their only Lee sizing dies they had (yes they were using the appropriate kind/amount of lube). They sent them back to Lee and Lee polished them and sent them back: no more stuck cases. Why weren't they polished before they left the factory? Both of these guys bought the Lee dies because they were much less expensive than semi-custom dies from other manufacturers they normally use, RCBS and Redding (one was 458 socom, don't remember the other one). Lee's website shows pictures of the internal parts of their dies (replacement parts), and they are usually not well finished.

The only Lee die set I have tried is for 7.62x25; the sizer is OK, but the seater is horrible. Bullets are often seated plainly visibly crooked. I bought a Hornady seater (sliding alignment sleeve style) for 30 lugar that works great for 7.62x25. I also use Hornady and Forster dies, and have had good success with them. I have not tried my Lee collet neck sizer die yet. Lee collet type FCD's for rifle and bottleneck pistol cartridges are fantastic, the carbide ones much less so. My hornady seater crimps while seating 45 colt better than separately crimping with CFCD. Lyman M-type expanders are great too. No matter whose dies I use, they wear Hornady, Forster or the older, clamp style RCBS lock rings.

Comparing prices for 45 colt, carbide/TiN three die sets (midwayusa), Lee: $23, Hornady $36, RCBS: $39, Lyman: $40, Redding: $58

Andy
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Old October 11, 2008, 06:50 PM   #7
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Over the years I've had to use RCBS customer service once or twice. The service was great and the replacement parts were sent on a timely fashion. Never had to send any die's back though.

I do understand Lee has a great customer service warrenty dept. and the service is first class. But right now I choose not to use their service facilities by not purchasing any of their products!! Tom F.
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Old October 11, 2008, 11:13 PM   #8
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CrustyFn... When loading for your AR I have been told by a Tech at Lee that you want to full length size rather than neck size only. Accuracy for me was greatly improved using the Factory Crimp Die. I am going to need to get one for the 45 also.
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Old October 12, 2008, 01:19 AM   #9
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G'day, correct me if I am wrong. A full length resizing die can be used to neck size. This has the advantage of increasing case life. It also reduces the amount of trimming required. Ammo that has only been neck sized should only be used in the same firearm as originally fired in. If the ammo is to be used in any other firearm of that caliber, then it needs to be full length re sized. Also some actions/individual firearms prefer full length re sized ammo.
I am not familiar with pistol requirements.
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Old October 12, 2008, 01:55 AM   #10
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reloading

I have a little bit of everything. I mainly use Lee,but have an RCBS press. I also have a LEE press, both work very well. The LEE neck sizer as well as the crimp die is a god send in my book, works easily and as was stated before increases case life. The LEE scale kinda sucks IMO. I prefere the RCBS scale but thats just me. By the way I have reloaded for about 16 years.
Be patient and pay attention and all will be well. Like was stated above their is a learning curve with each type of die/press so when all else fails read the instructions
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Old October 12, 2008, 03:24 AM   #11
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I always buy Lee dies unless I find a deal too good to pass up on used ones. They're just as good as anybody else's if not better.
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Old October 12, 2008, 12:50 PM   #12
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BigJakeJ1s: "I have two experienced reloading friends that stuck rifle cases in their only Lee sizing dies they had (yes they were using the appropriate kind/amount of lube)."

Maybe so. But, suggestions of experience and lube aside, I doubt it.

Cases stick because they aren't properly lubed, not because of any lack of mirror polishing in the die. I have found some individual size dies from almost all makers, including RCBS and Redding, that lacked the mirror inner polish, they all worked just fine too. On average, Lee's sizer dies are as well polished internally as any others.

I have lapped out a few size dies over the years and then resized cases both before and after the dies were polished. Never saw any difference IF the brass was properly lubed first. But, I do like that shine and I like to make it so, no matter what the original internal finish was like!
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Old October 12, 2008, 11:18 PM   #13
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I have been loading since 1960 when I got my first press, a Lyman Tru Line Jr. I have owned a couple of different presses since then from a C&H to a Redding to a RCBS and a Lee. They all worked well and gave me no problem.
I also have dies from all manufacturers, Lee ( 2) RCBS ( I'd have to go count) Lyman 3 ea. Bair (out of business now) Redding and a couple of others. If I buy a gun, I buy dies to load it, assuming I don't have dies already.
I generally haven't had a problem with ANY die performing, but even the best of die makers can have a problem. The way to judge them is on their Customer Service.
I had a set of 45 LC dies from RCBS. I started to size cases and it was a real job as they were SOOOO tight. After a few cases I deceided to mic the cases, Hmmm funny thing came to light, RCBS it seems marked the dies as 45 LC but were in reality a 44 Mag die.... Stuff happens.. RCBS exchanged the dies in a heartbeat, apologized and we both moved on.
There is always a lot of Lee trashing, but the bottom line is their service is second to none and their product,, well,, work.
Not the kind of finish you like. OK, spend half again as much and get what is important to you. I never thought the outside finish of a die had much to do with how it performs. I still don't.
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Old October 15, 2008, 08:38 PM   #14
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Quote:
Cases stick because they aren't properly lubed, not because of any lack of mirror polishing in the die.
Neither one of them changed the type or amount of lubrication they were using, but once they had newly polished dies back from Lee, they weren't getting stuck cases anymore. So apparently polish does have something to do with getting dies stuck. Apparently Lee thinks it does, since they decided the dies needed more polishing.

I don't happen to think that all of Lee's dies are poorly polished enough to make a difference. But I do know of two that were.

Andy
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Old October 16, 2008, 03:37 PM   #15
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I have Lee dies, Redding dies (Redding also makes complete 3 die sets) and RCBS dies. I don't think any I have is better than the other but some have quirks. RCBS depriming pins are designed so that they can break so they will send you replacements once this occurs. Redding dies have a much better pin system and you can order a carbide button that eliminates the need to lube the case neck. Lee's pin is like Reddings but as someone said Lee doesn't spend money on finish. Some may see this as cosmetic but being in the aerospace manufacturing business I was suspicious after I bought my shiny new Lee dies. I did some research and found that Lee doesn't do much in the way of chemical treatment to the tool steel so you have to take extra care to keep them from rusting. A light coat of oil wiped on after use will do and don't get them wet!

Of the three brand I own, Redding seems to be the best quality. Some say they cost more but at my Sportsmans Warehouse the difference between these and RCBS is $2. Will Redding make ammo any better than the others? Certainly not as far as I can tell. They are all about the same except in my opinion Lee has an accuracy advantage with the Collet die. I'll be adding a Lee collet die to my RCBS and Redding sets soon!
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Old October 16, 2008, 04:27 PM   #16
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Quote:
I did some research and found that Lee doesn't do much in the way of chemical treatment to the tool steel so you have to take extra care to keep them from rusting. A light coat of oil wiped on after use will do and don't get them wet!
I don't oil mine and they aren't rusty.
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Old October 16, 2008, 04:46 PM   #17
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In addition to the info above, Lee can offer reduced prices because they only guarantee dies for 2 years. Other die makers offer a lifetime guarantee and replace our mistakes with no questions asked.
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Old October 16, 2008, 09:15 PM   #18
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Rusting depends on your storage environment conditions and on whether you are a "ruster" (someone who perspires enough salt water from the skin of their hands at the right pH to induce rust; some do, some don't).

I don't find the Lee seaters work much better than standard seaters, despite floating the seater. I haven't compared a Lee seater directly to one of my Redding Competition Seating Dies (sliding sleeve), but I have compared the standard Redding Seater in .30-06 to it and measured the result on a runout fixture. In Lake City cases selected for uniform neck walls, the standard Redding die would seat the 168 grain Sierra Matchking to as much as 0.008" TIR (total indicated runout, or twice the actual off-axis tilt), with 0.004" being typical. The Competition Seater die with the same cases and bullets never produced more than 0.0005" TIR, or it was about 14 times better. At 100 yards, the ammunition from the standard seater produced groups of about 1.5 m.o.a. from my match accurized Garand when shooting from prone with a sling. The same load seated with the sliding sleeve Redding Competition Seating Die produced groups of about 0.7 m.o.a. from the same gun. These were all single-loaded so the magazine bump-around experience would not affect bullet tilt. That test was almost 20 years ago, and I've been sold on those Redding seating dies ever since.

Those group results are in good agreement with A.A. Abbatiellos's results published by the NRA in their book, Handloading. It describes a test of 829 rounds of match .30-06 fired after first measuring TIR and sorting by that criteria. About 1 m.o.a. of difference could be observed between zero runout and 0.008" TIR (0.004" tilt off axis). Above 0.008" TIR, no additional error was found, and it is assumed that, upon entering the barrel, the bullets could self-correct their alignment to the level of 0.008" TIR if they were tipping any more than that. This will obviously vary with the bullet bearing surface length and barrel tolerances, but it gives you some idea of how much improvement is made.

The Lee collet die takes a bit of getting used to, but it has the advantage over the standard neck sizing die that it cannot form the "dreaded donut" at the base of the case neck because its mandrel prevents that. Standard neck sizing dies and the collet dies can only be used on a case until it finally becomes so close to actual inside chamber dimensions that it becomes difficult to chamber. At that point the case must be full length resized, or at least resized just enough to set the shoulder back a couple of thousandths, and then fired, after which neck sizing is begun with it again. Benchrest shooters, wishing to avoid that periodic resizing often use bump dies. I have never tried one. I understand these resize the neck but also bump the shoulder back just enough to keep the case chambering properly without that separate full length sizing step ever having to be done during the life of the case. Forster makes a bushing die version. These will not get you out of periodic application of an inside neck reamer to clean out the dreaded donut, the way the collet die does.
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Old October 17, 2008, 12:49 AM   #19
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I live where it rains for months on end... rust is a concern here.
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