Lyman vs Winchester data Lyman over pressure

Master Blaster · July 2, 2001, 08:54 AM

I just purchased the Lyman Manusl and I have downloaded the new Winchester manual. Loading .45ACP 200 lswc with Winchester W231 powder there is a big difference between the data in the two manuals.

The reason I can see is Lyman used CUP to measure pressure and Winchester is using PSI.

But the FPS velocity looks strange.

Both use 5" test barrels.

Winchester 4.9 gr 725 fps 12,400 psi to 5.5 gr 910 fps 19,500 psi

Lyman 5.2 gr 730 fps 9,000 cup to 6.2 gr 925 FPS 17,400 cup.

I understand both can be right on the pressure but The discrepency on the FPS? How is this possible?

The lyman Manual sys you can use a heavier charge with lead than jacketed, the winchester data says just the opposite??

What do you guys go with on W231 powder?

Thanks

BigG · July 2, 2001, 09:13 AM

Every once in a while, despite great care on the part of the author, there is a typo in reloading manuals. Call the 800 number and verify the data with Lyman.

I haven't used W231 in a while but remember it somewhat akin to Bullseye in speed. 6.2 grains sounds like a healthy portion, but I just don't remember.

**Mike Irwin** · July 2, 2001, 10:54 AM

If you get ANOTHER manual, you're probably going to see differences from those specs, too.

There are hudreds of variables that come into play in something like this: the specific components used by the different companies (even differences between specific lots of the same components), differences in chambers and barrels, differences in atmospheric conditions, etc.

I've seen some pretty dramatic differences in reloading manuals over the years.

MADISON · July 3, 2001, 10:36 AM

One uses a pressure gun [Winchester] Lyman uses the actual gun, like you and I have.

I had a big argument with Winchester over the WSL powder for a 230gr JHP in 45ACP. They said max was4.7 grains. 5.0 shot extremely well. It was the difference in their pressure gun and A REAL GUN.

WESHOOT2 · July 4, 2001, 07:56 PM

I've seen some pretty big discrepancies in matched pairs.

Very best advice "all guns are ALWAYS different".

Tom Matiska · July 5, 2001, 08:01 AM

Winchester (to their credit) test their loads under a wide variety of conditions. According to their 1985 maunal they test their loads at -40F and +140F, muzzle up and down, not to exceed 95% SAAMI at 70F, not to exceed 110% at all extremes, blah blah blah...

The higher pressure they published may have happened under an extreme not tested in the other manual.

Tom

big89foot · July 6, 2001, 08:21 AM

I noticed the same thing with 6.5 Swede. The max load with Winchester was lower than the START load with Lyman! I tried a mild Lyman recommendation & blew a hole in my first primer; pulled the rest and went back to the Winchester recommendations & everything was okay. I now stick to the Winchester recommendations whenever possible.

Master Blaster · July 6, 2001, 12:19 PM

Cautious guy that I am I loaded W231 to the Winchester guidelines with a max load of 5.5grains W231, for a 200LSWC with a Federal 150primer, OAL 1.255 This load was about as stout as my hydrashok defense load in recoil. So I would not want to try the 6.2 grains in the lyman manual in my guns.

5.0 grains W231 with the same primer and dimensions as above,
crimp.471, case web .473 seems to be a very accurate load in my CCO, and government model,

I will try 4.8 grains, down to 4.5 grains next.

Clark · July 6, 2001, 09:48 PM

Looking for 357 mag AA#9 158 gr jacketed loads:

Accurate pamphlets 96, 97, 99, 2000 13 gr
"Accurate Arms Number Two" 2000 15 gr
Accurate pamphlet 2001 "new data" 15 gr
http://www.accuratearms.com/data/357.html 13 gr

"Modern Reloading" Richard Lee 1996 13 gr

"Speer 12" 1994 13.7 gr
"Speer 13" 1998 13.7 gr

Hornady 2000 11.5 gr

"Lyman's 47th" 1992 16 gr
"Lyman Pistol and Revolver" 1994 16 gr
http://www.again.net/~steve/357p_4_158.html 16 gr

"Midway Loadmap" 1999 15 bullets 11.3~11.7 gr

Actual testing I did:
AA#9 1.590", 357 mag brass, wspm, hard crimp
16 gr ok
17 gr case stuck, hammered it out

July 2, 2001, 08:54 AM	#1
Master Blaster Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: One of the original 13 Colonies Posts: 2,281	Lyman vs Winchester data Lyman over pressure I just purchased the Lyman Manusl and I have downloaded the new Winchester manual. Loading .45ACP 200 lswc with Winchester W231 powder there is a big difference between the data in the two manuals. The reason I can see is Lyman used CUP to measure pressure and Winchester is using PSI. But the FPS velocity looks strange. Both use 5" test barrels. Winchester 4.9 gr 725 fps 12,400 psi to 5.5 gr 910 fps 19,500 psi Lyman 5.2 gr 730 fps 9,000 cup to 6.2 gr 925 FPS 17,400 cup. I understand both can be right on the pressure but The discrepency on the FPS? How is this possible? The lyman Manual sys you can use a heavier charge with lead than jacketed, the winchester data says just the opposite?? What do you guys go with on W231 powder? Thanks

July 2, 2001, 09:13 AM	#2
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	Every once in a while, despite great care on the part of the author, there is a typo in reloading manuals. Call the 800 number and verify the data with Lyman. I haven't used W231 in a while but remember it somewhat akin to Bullseye in speed. 6.2 grains sounds like a healthy portion, but I just don't remember. __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

July 2, 2001, 10:54 AM	#3
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	If you get ANOTHER manual, you're probably going to see differences from those specs, too. There are hudreds of variables that come into play in something like this: the specific components used by the different companies (even differences between specific lots of the same components), differences in chambers and barrels, differences in atmospheric conditions, etc. I've seen some pretty dramatic differences in reloading manuals over the years. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 3, 2001, 10:36 AM	#4
MADISON Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2000 Location: Roanoke, Virginia Posts: 2,678	Pressure One uses a pressure gun [Winchester] Lyman uses the actual gun, like you and I have. I had a big argument with Winchester over the WSL powder for a 230gr JHP in 45ACP. They said max was4.7 grains. 5.0 shot extremely well. It was the difference in their pressure gun and A REAL GUN.

July 4, 2001, 07:56 PM	#5
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	"START LOW WORK UP SLOW" I've seen some pretty big discrepancies in matched pairs. Very best advice "all guns are ALWAYS different". __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

July 5, 2001, 08:01 AM	#6
Tom Matiska Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2000 Location: Wilkes-Barre, Pa Posts: 1,029	Winchester (to their credit) test their loads under a wide variety of conditions. According to their 1985 maunal they test their loads at -40F and +140F, muzzle up and down, not to exceed 95% SAAMI at 70F, not to exceed 110% at all extremes, blah blah blah... The higher pressure they published may have happened under an extreme not tested in the other manual. Tom

July 6, 2001, 08:21 AM	#7
big89foot Member Join Date: April 25, 2000 Location: Pensacola, Fl Posts: 54	I noticed the same thing with 6.5 Swede. The max load with Winchester was lower than the START load with Lyman! I tried a mild Lyman recommendation & blew a hole in my first primer; pulled the rest and went back to the Winchester recommendations & everything was okay. I now stick to the Winchester recommendations whenever possible.

July 6, 2001, 12:19 PM	#8
Master Blaster Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1999 Location: One of the original 13 Colonies Posts: 2,281	Cautious guy that I am I loaded W231 to the Winchester guidelines with a max load of 5.5grains W231, for a 200LSWC with a Federal 150primer, OAL 1.255 This load was about as stout as my hydrashok defense load in recoil. So I would not want to try the 6.2 grains in the lyman manual in my guns. 5.0 grains W231 with the same primer and dimensions as above, crimp.471, case web .473 seems to be a very accurate load in my CCO, and government model, I will try 4.8 grains, down to 4.5 grains next.

July 6, 2001, 09:48 PM	#9
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	Looking for 357 mag AA#9 158 gr jacketed loads: Accurate pamphlets 96, 97, 99, 2000 13 gr "Accurate Arms Number Two" 2000 15 gr Accurate pamphlet 2001 "new data" 15 gr http://www.accuratearms.com/data/357.html 13 gr "Modern Reloading" Richard Lee 1996 13 gr "Speer 12" 1994 13.7 gr "Speer 13" 1998 13.7 gr Hornady 2000 11.5 gr "Lyman's 47th" 1992 16 gr "Lyman Pistol and Revolver" 1994 16 gr http://www.again.net/~steve/357p_4_158.html 16 gr "Midway Loadmap" 1999 15 bullets 11.3~11.7 gr Actual testing I did: AA#9 1.590", 357 mag brass, wspm, hard crimp 16 gr ok 17 gr case stuck, hammered it out