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Old August 7, 2013, 12:57 PM   #201
double bogey
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In the past, Freestone, Polk, Anderson , Van Zandt, Stephens, Palo Pinto, San Saba, Brown, Mills, Llano, Burnett, McColluch, Mason, Menard. Not on a lease at present, need to start looking, got 2 grandsons 7 & 3, they want to go.
Best place I hunted was in Brown Co. We started on the place it was overpopulated, probably still is, we had some meat hunters that took all 4 deer allowed, we had a few hunters looking for trophy deer, we took every kid we knew down to kill their first deer and more after that. After a few years we got better bucks. Several 140 plus deer. Didn't seem like we could kill enough does, no matter how many we took, still was covered up.
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Old August 7, 2013, 01:11 PM   #202
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Sarge and Brian,

The PGC is not a government entity. They constantly pad the figures and lie. It is a nice survey you looked at, but don't you think the PGC should have contacted people that quit hunting? Before the big deer kill in the 80's, there was supposed to be 38 deer per square wooded mile in PA. Two years of record kills and it was still at that number? I have had a PGC rep tell me that they never even made that claim. All things numbers and figures just go away here.
What trophy hunting is doing is slowly going back to the "King's deer" line of thought. Healthier deer herd my ass. Until this year the only CWD reported in PA was in animals that were raised in captivity. I will give the PGC their dues, as soon as CWD hit the east, they tried to stop the importation of deer from other states. The PGC knows the problem was started by trophy "Hunting" clubs but is too polite to say so (And they all support PGC regs). WV is loaded with these clubs and has had CWD for quite a few years now. I bet it would not be long until your trophy "Hunters" would want to inject some "Quality" into the genetics of local deer herds that don't seem to be getting bigger. There were always big deer in PA, but trophy "Hunters" want stupid deer that they can easily shoot over a clover patch. When PA changed the laws allowing bowhunting into the rut it was the same thing. All these guys ran out and bought compound bows so they could "Challenge" themselves. What a bunch of crap. They just found out how easy it was to kill a big buck with a bow during the rut. The funny part is, most of those guys would have tarred and feathered somebody that talked bow hunting back in the early 60's. I know, I was using a recurve at the time. I am proud of some of the smaller bucks I pulled out of the woods. It is amazing how smart a deer can get in 2-3 years. When will man learn that there is almost always some kind of adverse reaction for messing with nature.
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Old August 7, 2013, 08:31 PM   #203
buck460XVR
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gunplummer:
The PGC is not a government entity. They constantly pad the figures and lie.

Now why would they do that? What possible advantage would that give them? Since they are open in justification for deer numbers on their web-site, there is no reason for lies and excuses.

Nice section there called "Ask a deer biologist". Here's a coupla things he answers that have come up on this thread. Most interesting was the fact that the majority of hunters in PA support ARs and that those numbers are increasing.


Do you think hunters buy hunting licenses to see deer, or to watch tree’s grow? I do not need a license to watch trees grow. We are losing hunters every day due to the low deer numbers in Wildlife Management Unit 4A and 4D.



The argument that hunter numbers are declining because of reduced deer populations is not true. Hunter numbers have declined since 1983 at a consistent rate regardless of fluctuations in deer abundance. Recently an article addressing this was published in Game News. Fewer Deer & Fewer Hunters: Are They Related looks at the relationship between deer numbers and license sales.



With regard to deer and trees, the PGC’s deer management program includes a goal to manage deer for healthy and sustainable forest habitat for a number of reasons. First, this goal was unanimously selected by a group of statewide stakeholders – including the PA Federation of Sportsmen Clubs, Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania, PA Deer Association, Quality Deer Management Association, United Bowhunters of Pennsylvania, and National Wild Turkey Federation. Second, the PGC’s constitutional and legal mandates require us to manage deer in the context of what is best for deer, wildlife, and habitat for now and into the future. Forests are a critical habitat for most wildlife in Pennsylvania. Third, it is well documented that deer can negatively impact forest regeneration when not managed properly. Finally, deer rely on seedlings and saplings (i.e., regeneration) for browse. Therefore, our goal of considering forest sustainability and regeneration as part of the deer management program is appropriate and responsible.



Further information on the PGC’s deer management program and the role of forests in deer management can also be found in What is a healthy forest?




Antler restrictions are killing our best genetics by harvesting 6 & 8 pointers 1.5 year olds. What do you think?

Antler restrictions have been a positive for Pennsylvania’s deer management program. Since antler restrictions started in 2002, yearling buck survival has increased (from 15% to 52%), harvest of adult bucks has increased (from ~20% to ~50% of total buck harvest), and hunter support has increased (from 57% to 63%). However, there are still criticisms, many of which center around genetics. The argument that we are removing our “best” yearling bucks from the population, which in turn is affecting population genetics, is common. However, when we take a closer look, with the help of new technology and research, the genetics concern is unfounded.

First, deer are wild animals in an uncontrolled environment. Unlike a bull in a pasture full of cows that can’t run away, a buck’s world is full of competition. Bucks compete with each other and must compete for receptive does. Genetics research has shown that yearling males are participating in breeding even in populations with 50% of males being 3.5 years old and older. Since most of Pennsylvania’s bucks are harvested during the gun season and AFTER the breeding season, a yearling buck that is removed has likely already had the opportunity to breed and pass on his genes.

Second, recent research has shown that the amount of growth in the first set of antlers in white-tailed males is a poor predictor of antler growth at maturity. A study conducted over 10 years which followed hundreds of wild, free-ranging white-tailed bucks from their first set of antlers found that by the time bucks reached maturity (4.5 years old), there was no difference in antler measurements between those that had spikes or 3 points as yearlings compared to those that had 4 or more points as yearlings. This suggests that spike and 3-point yearlings can grow the same size antlers as yearling bucks with 4 or more points. All have the capability to produce large antlers at maturity.

Third, let us not forget that all deer receive genes from both their parents. To date, no one has classified the genetic contribution of a doe to her male fawn’s antler growth. And in Pennsylvania, there is no harvest selection on adult does. Their removal is “genetically” random.

Even if we wanted to alter the genetics of Pennsylvania’s deer herd, it would be extremely difficult to do.
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Old August 7, 2013, 11:38 PM   #204
Keg
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Quote:
Antler restrictions are killing our best genetics by harvesting 6 & 8 pointers 1.5 year olds. What do you think?
The folks that are pushing AR's are not shooting 1.5 year old bucks....
1.5 year bucks take heavy casualties with no restrictions....
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Old August 9, 2013, 02:04 PM   #205
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Again, they lie. When the big deer kill off started in the 80's the PGC admitted by the second year (Gary Alt himself) that too many button bucks were being killed. The answer was to "Shoot only big doe". It has been one lie after another with them. How about the big shake up a few years ago with fraud, misuse of funds and equipment, and illegal killing of deer by BOARD MEMBERS? Ask them about that and they act like it never happened, but a couple of people resigned to avoid getting burned. As the PGC is not a government branch, they can not be internally investigated except by themselves. The biggest sportsman organization in Pa. started a lawsuit against the PGC for poor deer management. Do you think that they kept any kind of a survey from those hunters? The people that work for the PGC are not all idiots, but enough of them are arrogant fools.
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