My 1911 has ruined me

[Roland Thunder]

Once upon a time, I was a pretty good shot with most of my guns. Then I bought a Colt 1911 45acp Government pistol and had a trigger job done to it. I am lights out shooting that sucker. Problem is, now, I can't shoot any of my other guns worth a hoot. While I was getting better and better with my 1911, I was getting worse with all my other guns.

I am thinking about putting my 1911 in the safe for a few months until improve with some of my other guns.

Anybody else ever had this problem?

[TunnelRat]

You trained easy. I've fallen into the same trap. If you can shoot a crap trigger well then you can shoot a good trigger amazing. It's very much worth bringing out the DA revolver or DA/SA pistol from time to time or even more often than that. Train harder than you have to fight. It's the same mentality as a good professional athlete. I have been shooting DA a lot lately to bring my trigger control back to what it was. I still end every session with a box or more through my Glock 19, but that practice with harder triggers pays off noticeably on the target.

[AK103K]

I never had the problem, but my guns are almost all stock. I think over "customizing", can be a detriment in a lot of cases.

I still shoot my old (stock) Commander on a regular basis, but I put it in the safe for other reasons, about 15 years ago.

If you shoot all the guns that you have a couple of times a month, I'd be willing to bet, you'll be fine again soon after.

[Roland Thunder]

To me shooting a 1911 and then switching to a DAO or DA/SA gun is like practicing free throws at 14 ft and then trying to make them from 15 feet in a real game

[TunnelRat]

To me shooting a 1911 and then switching to a DAO or DA/SA gun is like practicing free throws at 14 ft and then trying to make them from 15 feet in a real game

I'm not 100% sure how to take that (at 5'9" basketball was never in the cards). Are you saying you find DAO or DA/SA harder or easier? Sounds like harder but internet reading can be tricky. The goal is to use a trigger system that will put more emphasis on good trigger control than a worked over 1911 where you're just touching off rounds. However if all you're going to use or carry is a 1911 then why even bother worrying about other firearms? I don't mean that to be snide but to be honest. It may frankly not matter.

[Sharkbite]

Yep!!!... A good 1911 trigger WILL spoil you.

[Shadi Khalil]

if all you're going to use or carry is a 1911 then why even bother worrying about other firearms? I don't mean that to be snide but to be honest. It may frankly not matter.

My thoughts exactly.

[Overkill777]

I love my 1911 and my ruger 22/45, they both have nice triggers and really spoil me. But I practice a lot with my j frame which really helps my pistol shooting skills.

[bedbugbilly]

As the old saying goes . . . "beware of the man who shoots just one gun". Perhaps you have found your "one gun"?

[AK103K]

If you can shoot a crap trigger well then you can shoot a good trigger amazing. It's very much worth bring out the DA revolver or DA/SA pistol from time to time or even more often than that.

Exactly.

As the old saying goes . . .

Whats going on here, is showing the falacy in that quote.

If that one gun isnt available, theres probably not much to beware of.

[PatientWolf]

Congratulations. You have made the first step on the road to recovery. You have identified the problem.

The next step is to separate yourself from the problem. Now if you just send that 1911 my way, you will be able to focus on recovering your abilities with those other pistols.

[Dragline45]

If you have any DA guns dry or live fire away. I always said if you can master the DA trigger, you can shoot any gun well. I learned to shoot on a DA trigger, and I owe it to that to being able to pick up any gun and shoot it well.

[gsparesa]

No. Never had that problem. What other guns do you use now?

[mellow_c]

I usually never shoot a gun for more than 2 or 3 range sessions in a row unless I'm testing something. So it works out that I'm fairly adaptable because I'm so used to shooting something different each trip to the range. But there is something to be said for being really good with one gun.

I'm also always on the look out to try other peoples guns, so that helps with my adaptability as well.

[2damnold4this]

Get yourself a revolver with a heavy double action trigger in a lightweight, snubby package and shoot it until you are proficient. Anything else will seem easy.

[Sevens]

I also do not experience a problem anything like that.

I suppose... depending how I might look at the scenario, I would also seriously not call that a "problem." If anything, I would look at it like a challenge with a goal in mind and to accept the challenge with the goal of success, it would seem to require trigger time, range time and ammo.

Just sounds like a wonderful project to tackle.

[Boncrayon]

I always wanted a .45 1911, and did extensive research for one in my budget range, with alternate bells and whistles some of it's predecessors never thought of....the War era Remington's & Colt's. I looked for the high end like Kimber, etc., great guns but just out of my budget. I found my love in the Magnum Research Desert Eagle 1911 G.

I bring this to the range every time, along with my Beretta's, and long guns (Colt Competition AR15 & Remington 45-70 Rolling Block).

Most comments on my Desert Eagle are "Wow...That trigger! Did you do a trigger job on this?" My answer was, "No...right out of the box."

I was hooked from the reviews, and it is not my favorite firearm of all.

[Limnophile]

Quote:
As the old saying goes . . .

Whats going on here, is showing the [fallacy] in that quote.

Actually, he has discovered the difference between a well designed and well tuned trigger vs inferior triggers.

A well tuned SAO trigger is the best trigger for putting lead on target in combat, and the 1911 trigger is the best of the SAO designs. Other-than-SAO triggers are compromises and are more difficult to shoot well. One can compensate for a suboptimal trigger by practicing, but physics dictates that no amount of practice will make one as good with a suboptimal trigger as they can be with the same amount of practice with an SAO.

[AK103K]

Actually, he has discovered the difference between a well designed and well tuned trigger vs inferior triggers.

A trigger is a trigger. The inferior part of the equation, is usually the shooter.

Triggerphobia seems to be a common thing these days, and you usually hear the complaints about other than SA triggers, from people who are inexperienced with anything but the SA triggers, and have never bothered to learn to shoot anything else (especially when you consider that it really only takes a little time and effort to learn to shoot DAO well).

If all you can shoot well with, is a light, SA trigger, then youre only doing yourself a disfavor, and limiting yourself.

Learning to shoot DAO, will do more for your shooting overall than pretty much anything else, and that transfers to rifles and anything else, not just hand guns. Its not hard at all to learn, and what you gain pays dividends, and is is well worth the little effort it takes.

As far as a combat trigger, they are really no different than anything else, and in many cases, the light,"tuned" SA triggers can be a detriment, and even a danger, especially in the hands of someone who doesnt practice realistically, and is basing their skills on what they do target shooting. Those light, tuned target triggers, have no place on a serious use gun. Whats even scarier, is one in the hands of someone who carries one, and doesnt understand that.

I have a good buddy who fits that last part. His Nighthawks are something to marvel at, but their triggers are WAY to light and sensitive, and have no place on a gun like that if its being carried (which he does). I shoot with him a couple of times a year, and we both have doubles with them when shooting them "realistically". I usually settle down with them after a mag or two, but they are his guns and he still has them every time we shoot.

He's a great guy, but I sometimes think he has more money than brains. He also has Pythons, and a couple of really nice S&W's, and he cant shoot them DA for crap either, which is how they are meant to be shot.

Like I said earlier, you are simply limiting yourself if SA is all you can shoot well with.

[45_auto]

He also has Pythons, and a couple of really nice S&W's, and he cant shoot them DA for crap either, which is how they are meant to be shot.

If Colt and S&W meant for them to be shot DA, why do you think that they wasted all that money putting that SA crap and things like exposed hammers with thumb-cocking serrations into them?

It's not like they don't know how to make something that is meant to be shot DA. If they were meant to be shot DA, you'd think they would make them more like something that IS meant to be shot DA like a S&W 640.

[AK103K]

From a combat, serious use perspective, they were meant to be used DAO. Once you learn to shoot them that way, you probably wont bother with that SA notch much anyway, at least thats been my experience. Theres really no need, and many police departments came to that conclusion as well towards the end of the revolvers reign in police guns. They rendered normally DA guns incapable of SA fire altogether.

Slow fire target shooting, maybe, but I think once you see how well you can shoot them DAO, even there, you'd be amazed at how well you can shoot.

With a heavy recoiling handgun, like a .44mag with heavy loads, you will often actually see improvement shooting DAO over SA. It was what first got me started shooting them that way 40 some odd years ago, after an old family friend suggested it, when he saw I was having difficulty with flinching with my 4" Model 29, which had a very, VERY light SA trigger. My groups, especially at longer ranges, shrank considerably once I started shooting DAO with that gun, and others that followed.

When you know that gun is going off as soon as you touch the trigger, and whats to follow, doesnt do much for your accuracy. Stroking the trigger and focusing on what you should be focusing on, the sights and target, give a surprise break and no flinching or other problems. You can also shoot the gun very quickly, and accurately. Jerry Mickulek is a perfect example of how the tecnique works.

[TunnelRat]

My groups, especially at longer ranges, shrank considerably once I started shooting DAO with that gun, and others that followed.

I have found the same. I can stack rounds with my model 19-5 in DA. When I start thumb-cocking the hammer they open up as I start anticipating the shot. I have to shoot the SA continuously for a number of rounds before I settle back in.

[KyJim]

When you go to the range, take a handgun which is not a 1911, like a striker fired semi-auto or double action revolver. Shoot that gun first. Then switch to the 1911. I don't always do this but find it helps when I do so.

[Limnophile]

A trigger is a trigger. The inferior part of the equation, is usually the shooter.

Not all triggers are created equally. Two triggers on two guns of the same model can be substantially different. In fact, if all triggers were truly equal there would be no need to argue for having to learn to shoot a DAO well.

Physics dictates that, everything else being equal (it never is), a 5-lb (a nominal pull for SA) trigger on a 2-lb handgun will be more precise than a 10-lb (a nominal pull for DA) trigger on such a handgun.

Triggerphobia seems to be a common thing these days, and you usually hear the complaints about other than SA triggers, from people who are inexperienced with anything but the SA triggers, and have never bothered to learn to shoot anything else (especially when you consider that it really only takes a little time and effort to learn to shoot DAO well).

But, no matter how well you train yourself to shoot DA well, you will shoot the same gun equipped as SA better. Given today's price of ammo, the low hit rate during gun fights, and the potential serious consequences of not hitting a shooting-worthy bad guy or hitting him with inadequate accuracy, why opt for a gun crippled by a suboptimal trigger? I can think of three reasons to shun a 1911 with a well tuned trigger -- a desire for high capacity, a desire for deep concealment, or cost.

If all you can shoot well with, is a light, SA trigger, then youre only doing yourself a disfavor, and limiting yourself.

How so, if all you own is handguns with nice SA triggers?

Learning to shoot DAO, will do more for your shooting overall than pretty much anything else, and that transfers to rifles and anything else, not just hand guns. Its not hard at all to learn, and what you gain pays dividends, and is is well worth the little effort it takes.

Jogging with ankle weights will make me a better runner, but come race time I'll remove the ankle weights. Regardless of any benefits one might accrue, one will still be more precise with a SA trigger, all else being the same.

If your position is true, think of how many gunsmiths are ripping off uninformed gun owners for the price of a worthless trigger job!

As far as a combat trigger, they are really no different than anything else, and in many cases, the light,"tuned" SA triggers can be a detriment, and even a danger, especially in the hands of someone who doesnt practice realistically, and is basing their skills on what they do target shooting. Those light, tuned target triggers, have no place on a serious use gun. Whats even scarier, is one in the hands of someone who carries one, and doesnt understand that.

I said nothing about a combat trigger. I said a SA trigger is more accurate (because of better precision) in combat. I believe the NRA limits triggers to no more than 4-lb for bullseye matches; Jeff Cooper thought a 3.5-lb trigger was just right for 1911 carry. I think a typical non-tuned 1911 trigger is 5-to-6-lb. A standard Glock trigger is 5.5-lb; isn't there a 3.5-lb optional accessory? If a safetiless Glock is supposedly safe enough to carry with a 3.5-to-5.5-lb trigger, why wouldn't a safety-equipped 1911 be safe to carry with a 3.5-to-6-lb trigger?

Seems to me the 1911 should be safer, and although there are more 1911s in the hands of Americans the most common gun we read ND reports about is the Glock. After all, if all one needs to do is "Keep yer booger hook off the bang switch," that makes all firearms, regardless of trigger, safe. Of course, an affirmative external safety or a long and heavy, precision-crippling, DA trigger provide an additional margin of safety in the event of an episode of brain flatulence.

Now, if you are talking a hair target trigger in the range of 1-to-2-lb, I'll agree that's too light to carry responsibly and unnecessary. I think it is safe to assume that assembly-line guns are sold with triggers that are not unsafely too light. It thus stands to reason that the triggers on most such guns can be improved while still allowing for safe handling.

I have a good buddy who fits that last part. His Nighthawks are something to marvel at, but their triggers are WAY to light and sensitive, and have no place on a gun like that if its being carried (which he does). I shoot with him a couple of times a year, and we both have doubles with them when shooting them "realistically". I usually settle down with them after a mag or two, but they are his guns and he still has them every time we shoot.

Please define "WAY too light and sensitive."

I assume "doubles" = troubles? If so, please describe the nature of such troubles.

He's a great guy, but I sometimes think he has more money than brains. He also has Pythons, and a couple of really nice S&W's, and he cant shoot them DA for crap either, which is how they are meant to be shot.

A crippling DA pull has lead to unfortunate lapses in safety in a misguided attempt to mitigate the poor (albeit more safe) nature of the trigger. Most notably is that many cops, and presumably civilians, were irresponsibly taught to stage their DA triggers, something that supposedly only ceased after Enoka published his study about a decade ago.

Like I said earlier, you are simply limiting yourself if SA is all you can shoot well with.

Like I said, I need an explanation for how this is so. My carry pistols are all safety-equipped DA/SA CZs, which I carry cocked and locked. I only fire them SA, as I do not believe in warning or fouling shots.

I have a laser target that I shoot mostly DA due primarily to sloth, but also as a challenge because in DA errors are magnified. However, my SA groups are usually half the diameter of my DA groups. Thus, my SA dry firing is typically 4-times more precise than my DA dry firing. I'm sure others would find similar results, either on a laser target or at the range, although I'm sure the SA improvement factor varies (but is always greater than 1).

[AK103K]

Not all triggers are created equally. Two triggers on two guns of the same model can be substantially different. In fact, if all triggers were truly equal there would be no need to argue for having to learn to shoot a DAO well.

No, they are not all equal, but the difference between 99% of the factory triggers, isnt worth a second thought, and not an issue when you shoot the guns. Unless of course, you choose to make it one. They are simply, triggers.

You should learn to shoot DAO, if you arent already familiar with shooting that way, because its something youre not familiar with, not because its a chore. You simply learn a different trigger type. The big plus with learning the DAO trigger is, you learn that the trigger itself really isnt the big deal, something that those who dont understand, want to keep pushing. Its just a trigger, and nothing to worry over.

But, no matter how well you train yourself to shoot DA well, you will shoot the same gun equipped as SA better.

Not necessarily, and in some, if not most cases, not at all. I know this for a fact. Then again, I do shoot that way on a regular basis, and Im speaking from experience.

How so, if all you own is handguns with nice SA triggers?

Why? Again, you simply limit yourself and your skills, to one type of gun/trigger, and have limited yourself in options. What happens if you need to pick up something youre not familiar with, that doenst have your "crutch" trigger?

Jogging with ankle weights will make me a better runner, but come race time I'll remove the ankle weights. Regardless of any benefits one might accrue, one will still be more precise with a SA trigger, all else being the same.

Doesnt work like that. SA isnt necessarily more precise. DA/DAO isnt less precise. Its what you the shooter do, or cant do.

If your position is true, think of how many gunsmiths are ripping off uninformed gun owners for the price of a worthless trigger job!

They are! And those like you, here on the internet and in the gun shops, must be their best salesmen. Youre not doing anyone any favors by it either.

I said nothing about a combat trigger.

"A well tuned SAO trigger is the best trigger for putting lead on target in combat..." That was you in post #18, was it not? Sounded to me like thats what you were inferring.

Seems to me the 1911 should be safer, and although there are more 1911s in the hands of Americans the most common gun we read ND reports about is the Glock.

Ive seen more problems with 1911's in this respect than I have Glocks, but Ive been around more 1911's over the years than I have Glocks. Between the two, I really dont see a difference safety wise, and Ive carried both pretty much any way you can think of, and never had any issues. If the operator is a dunce, youre going to have problems. Doesnt matter what the gun is.

Please define "WAY too light and sensitive."

I assume "doubles" = troubles? If so, please describe the nature of such troubles.

"Doubles" is "doubles", the gun fires twice, with the second round being unintentional. How long have you been at this?

"Way to light" triggers often give this result, especially if youre not accustomed to them.

A crippling DA pull has lead to unfortunate lapses in safety in a misguided attempt to mitigate the poor (albeit more safe) nature of the trigger.

As far as I know, the reason most departments went to DAO, and removed the SA notch of their revolvers, was to reduce their liability due to unintentional discharges under stress, of a gun in SA.

Most DA handguns dont have a "crippling" DA pull either (unless maybe youre that boy we used to see the bully pick on in the back of comics, when we were kids). Its just a trigger, that isnt the light SA that youre accustomed to. Nothing wrong with weight, as long as it reasonable and smooth, which most factory triggers are, even these days.

Like I said, I need an explanation for how this is so. My carry pistols are all safety-equipped DA/SA CZs, which I carry cocked and locked. I only fire them SA, as I do not believe in warning or fouling shots.

The more you keep talking, the more Im becoming convinced, you have little, if any real DA experience, or we wouldnt be hearing this from you.

Shooting DA, or DAO, is no harder than shooting SA, "if" youre accustomed to it. You'd understand that, if you bothered to give it a try and actually learn it.

Shooting DA/DAO puts your focus on the sights and/or target, where it should be, with little thought of the trigger. I dont think (consciously anyway) about the trigger at all when I shoot (unless there is something wrong with it). There is no need to, its just the trigger. If Im worried about what its doing, my focus is not in the right place.

I have a laser target that I shoot mostly DA due primarily to sloth, but also as a challenge because in DA errors are magnified. However, my SA groups are usually half the diameter of my DA groups. Thus, my SA dry firing is typically 4-times more precise than my DA dry firing. I'm sure others would find similar results, either on a laser target or at the range, although I'm sure the SA improvement factor varies (but is always greater than 1).

Try that with a heavy recoiling handgun shooting full power loads, and get back to me. Lasers and dry firing are great help, but no substitute for actual live fire, especially when it comes to dealing with things you dont get with the training aides.

As I said before, my groups shooting the heavy recoiling guns, shrank dramatically when shooting DAO, and it appears Im not the only one here to experience that. I also found my DAO revolver and auto shooting helped with everything else, especially the more I shot that way, and I also found I was way less trigger phobic and a trigger worrier, with pretty much everything else I shot/shoot.