grrr... FTF with .45 acp in 1911

ghbucky01 · March 10, 2014, 07:54 PM

First, thanks for the ton of help I have gotten so far.

I have loaded up roughly 250 rounds so far, and I'm getting comfortable with the process.

The major headache I have right now is that I am getting a lot of FTF. The case neck is getting hung up on the chamber, leaving a gouge in the brass. The first round off the mag almost always (I did have one off the top mis-feed) seems to work fine, it is just during firing that the problem is showing up, so I'm not sure how to identify it without a lot of trips to the range.

After my first batch did this, I gave a half turn to the Lee Factory Crimp die (taper crimp), but I am still having issues.

Should I keep increasing the crimp? And is there a way to tell when I have it right short of burning up the highway between home and the range?

chris in va · March 10, 2014, 08:27 PM

It would help to know the bullet type/weight/profile and OAL you are using along with the specific 1911 used.

ghbucky01 · March 10, 2014, 09:00 PM

Sure,

SNS LRN 230 gr
1.201 COAL
Kimber Tac Pro 2

Misssissippi Dave · March 10, 2014, 09:07 PM

I hope you have some calipers or a micrometer. If you do just measure the diameter of the case about 3/16" below the mouth after it is loaded. Then measure the diameter at the mouth or very close to the end of the mouth. It should be the same or possibly a couple thousands less. You are only trying to remove the flair during the crimp and nothing more.

It is possible you are loading too long or too short. Can't tell which it might be without knowing the bullet used, the over all length, and the make and model of 1911 you are loading for.

You are probably loading too short. Try to make a few dummy rounds and see you they cycle with an OAL of around 1.240

FtrPilot · March 10, 2014, 09:22 PM

Does it happen with commercial ammo? Or only with your reloads.

Have you tried more than one magazine? Could be a bad mag or bad mag spring.

Have you tried putting one round in the mag and seeing if it feeds? Or are you filling up the mag?

Can you polish the feed ramp?

I agree with Misssissippi Dave...try to resolve this with dummy rounds.

ghbucky01 · March 10, 2014, 09:23 PM

Quote:

I hope you have some calipers or a micrometer. If you do just measure the diameter of the case about 3/16" below the mouth after it is loaded. Then measure the diameter at the mouth or very close to the end of the mouth. It should be the same or possibly a couple thousands less. You are only trying to remove the flair during the crimp and nothing more.

I measured several cases, and they are maybe 1/1000 wider at the mouth.

Quote:

It is possible you are loading too long or too short. Can't tell which it might be without knowing the bullet used, the over all length, and the make and model of 1911 you are loading for.

SNS LRN 230 gr
1.201 COAL
Kimber Tac Pro 2

Quote:

You are probably loading too short. Try to make a few dummy rounds and see you they cycle with an OAL of around 1.240

I got the 1.200 from my LEE book, so I thought that was gospel. However, I just mic'd some factory rounds (230gr FMJ) that load flawlessly and see that they actually measure out at 1.255

Thanks, I'll try increasing the OAL.

ghbucky01 · March 10, 2014, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Does it happen with commercial ammo? Or only with your reloads.

Have you tried more than one magazine? Could be a bad mag or bad mag spring.

Have you tried putting one round in the mag and seeing if it feeds? Or are you filling up the mag?

Can you polish the feed ramp?

I agree with Misssissippi Dave...try to resolve this with dummy rounds.

It has only occurred with my hand loads. It is has eaten every factory round I have fed it and can't recall the last time it malfunctioned with factory loads. HP and Russian ammo included.

I have 2 relatively new Kimpro tac mags, and it is happening with both. It seems to pick up the first round off the top of the mag pretty reliably (no matter how many rounds in the mag), but later rounds CAN FTF. This is my impression, I can't say that I have done extensive tests on this.

The ramp seems to have a pretty high polish already.

Valerko · March 10, 2014, 09:44 PM

Simple solution. Put lighter recoil spring or make your reloads hotter.
I reload for Taurus PT1911 with relatively light recoil springs. Loads that work 100% in Taurus don't work as good in Springfield TRP with heavier slide and spring. Hotter loads , saved the problem. Lighter spring allowed me to use old loads.

parttime · March 10, 2014, 10:11 PM

I wouldn't just increase the COL without removing the barrel and using it as a case gauge.
Unclenick has posted, numerous times, a diagrahm showing the proper seating depth of lead bullets in a 1911 frame.

I also would measure the taper crimp of the loaded round and make sure it is no more the .471.

ghbucky01 · March 10, 2014, 10:27 PM

Quote:

I also would measure the taper crimp of the loaded round and make sure it is no more the .471.

3 loaded rounds measure out at .472

More crimp?

Axelwik · March 10, 2014, 11:34 PM

Get a max cartridge gauge and adjust your setup until they go in without any hang ups. Using a barrel may work sometimes, but some barrels can be fairly sloppy, and no barrel will be as tight as a max cartridge gauge.

They're cheap, and will avoid a lot of frustration at the range.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/171...ge-gage-45-acp

Gadawg88 · March 10, 2014, 11:44 PM

If your loaded rounds pass the plunk test then it is most likely your coal is wrong. 1.201 is short for a 230gn rn bullet. I load mine to 1.265. It is probably bouncing off the feed ramp and jamming on the top of the chamber.
The following link is a good read on the subject if you have the patience. If not, skip to the very bottom and check out Figure 9. The cartridge being illustrated is not 45acp, but the same concept applies.

http://38super.net/Pages/Overall%20Length.html

caz223 · March 11, 2014, 12:04 AM

Agreed, with LRN in .45 it's really easy to get a COL too short and end up with feeding problems.

ghbucky01 · March 11, 2014, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Get a max cartridge gauge and adjust your setup until they go in without any hang ups. Using a barrel may work sometimes, but some barrels can be fairly sloppy, and no barrel will be as tight as a max cartridge gauge.

They're cheap, and will avoid a lot of frustration at the range.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/171...ge-gage-45-acp

Ordered. Thanks for the tip.

ghbucky01 · March 11, 2014, 12:11 AM

Quote:

If your loaded rounds pass the plunk test then it is most likely your coal is wrong. 1.201 is short for a 230gn rn bullet. I load mine to 1.265. It is probably bouncing off the feed ramp and jamming on the top of the chamber.
The following link is a good read on the subject if you have the patience. If not, skip to the very bottom an check out Figure 9. The cartridge being illustrated is not 45acp, but the same concept applies.

http://38super.net/Pages/Overall%20Length.html

That, my misguided college football fan friend, sounds exactly like what is happening.

Thanks.

Wreck-n-Crew · March 11, 2014, 12:47 AM

Quote:

It is probably bouncing off the feed ramp and jamming on the top of the chamber.

Also typical problem with 45acp in 1911. That or over crimping. You have probably heard it before that 1911 were made for the 230 ball ammo and other ammunition does not feed reliably. Well us reloaders call bull on that.

Seems like my favorite 45 plinking bullet ( 200 Gr SWC) Feed just fine!

Just remember if you have to make it longer it might lighten your recoil, so take a few different loads with you to test. 5each in three incremental charge weights should do it.

salvadore · March 11, 2014, 12:23 PM

I does sound like a load problem, but have you cleaned it lately?

salvadore · March 11, 2014, 12:36 PM

I went down and measured some Lee RN 228s loads and that is a pretty short RN, I'm getting 1.247" oal.

salvadore · March 11, 2014, 12:43 PM

Oops, went to check my Lee 230gr flat points and OAL is 1.196" THey feed in all three of my 1911s. Both taper crimps are .472

salvadore · March 11, 2014, 12:49 PM

Also, should the OP be worried agout excess pressure when loading so deep and what the heck is SNS?

Wreck-n-Crew · March 11, 2014, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Also, should the OP be worried agout excess pressure when loading so deep and what the heck is SNS?

SNS Casting.

1.200" is the listed seating depth for 230 LRN.

ghbucky01 · March 11, 2014, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Oops, went to check my Lee 230gr flat points and OAL is 1.196" THey feed in all three of my 1911s. Both taper crimps are .472

Thanks for the taper measure. That is what mine is at as well, so that probably isn't it.

Quote:

I does sound like a load problem, but have you cleaned it lately?

It was cleaned before I started firing reloads, and has consistently not liked my reloads since.

My Kimber is very thoughtful about letting me know when it needs cleaned by failing to slide lock.

I can generally run about 500 factory rounds through it before that happens, but my reloads must be dirtier, because it started complaining after 300ish.

RickB · March 11, 2014, 02:08 PM

I've shot RN bullets of different shapes and weights, and if they are truly are round, as opposed to some of the "round nose flat" bullets on the market, I'd try loading closer to 1.26", as has been suggested.
I've been crimping at .470" for 20+ years, and never an issue.
I am not a fan of the Lee FCD. Especially with plain lead bullets, you can run into issues with the bullet being sized down, but then not rebounding somewhat as will the brass case. You get a looser fit between the bullet and case, which can contribute to bullet set-back.

ghbucky01 · March 11, 2014, 02:21 PM

Quote:

I've shot RN bullets of different shapes and weights, and if they are truly are round, as opposed to some of the "round nose flat" bullets on the market, I'd try loading closer to 1.26", as has been suggested.
I've been crimping at .470" for 20+ years, and never an issue.
I am not a fan of the Lee FCD. Especially with plain lead bullets, you can run into issues with the bullet being sized down, but then not rebounding somewhat as will the brass case. You get a looser fit between the bullet and case, which can contribute to bullet set-back.

I've tested the setback by pushing a round into the bench and measuring the result and I'm not seeing any problems there. Thanks for reminding me about that, because I understand that can lead to bad things.

But, I did tighten the crimp last night a bit to get it down some and did not retest for the setback. Looks like i need to re-work some of my settings.

Misssissippi Dave · March 11, 2014, 07:22 PM

The short OAL used often for published data is generally the minimum OAL you should use. Going longer, so long as your don't exceed the Max OAL for the caliber and the bullet isn't hitting the rifling, tends to lower the pressure and will keep you from going too hot. Loading short has caused plenty of problems in 1911 .45 from what I have seen. All those problems were with feeding. I won't load flat point or hollow point loads shorter than 1.200" and ball rounds I won't load shorter than 1.220". This works for me. YMMV.

March 10, 2014, 07:54 PM	#1
ghbucky01 Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2014 Location: Northern, KY Posts: 176	grrr... FTF with .45 acp in 1911 First, thanks for the ton of help I have gotten so far. I have loaded up roughly 250 rounds so far, and I'm getting comfortable with the process. The major headache I have right now is that I am getting a lot of FTF. The case neck is getting hung up on the chamber, leaving a gouge in the brass. The first round off the mag almost always (I did have one off the top mis-feed) seems to work fine, it is just during firing that the problem is showing up, so I'm not sure how to identify it without a lot of trips to the range. After my first batch did this, I gave a half turn to the Lee Factory Crimp die (taper crimp), but I am still having issues. Should I keep increasing the crimp? And is there a way to tell when I have it right short of burning up the highway between home and the range? Last edited by ghbucky01; March 10, 2014 at 09:03 PM.

March 10, 2014, 09:22 PM	#5
FtrPilot Member Join Date: September 4, 2010 Location: Woodstock, GA Posts: 88	Couple of things to look at Does it happen with commercial ammo? Or only with your reloads. Have you tried more than one magazine? Could be a bad mag or bad mag spring. Have you tried putting one round in the mag and seeing if it feeds? Or are you filling up the mag? Can you polish the feed ramp? I agree with Misssissippi Dave...try to resolve this with dummy rounds.

March 10, 2014, 10:11 PM	#9
parttime Member Join Date: August 25, 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 82	I wouldn't just increase the COL without removing the barrel and using it as a case gauge. Unclenick has posted, numerous times, a diagrahm showing the proper seating depth of lead bullets in a 1911 frame. I also would measure the taper crimp of the loaded round and make sure it is no more the .471. __________________ The wants of the many DO NOT outweigh my needs.

March 10, 2014, 11:44 PM	#12
Gadawg88 Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2013 Location: Georgia Posts: 241	If your loaded rounds pass the plunk test then it is most likely your coal is wrong. 1.201 is short for a 230gn rn bullet. I load mine to 1.265. It is probably bouncing off the feed ramp and jamming on the top of the chamber. The following link is a good read on the subject if you have the patience. If not, skip to the very bottom and check out Figure 9. The cartridge being illustrated is not 45acp, but the same concept applies. http://38super.net/Pages/Overall%20Length.html Last edited by Gadawg88; March 11, 2014 at 08:31 AM.

March 11, 2014, 12:04 AM	#13
caz223 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,429	Agreed, with LRN in .45 it's really easy to get a COL too short and end up with feeding problems. __________________ I'm not just a gun. I'm YOUR gun. (Hold me.)

March 10, 2014, 08:27 PM	#2
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	It would help to know the bullet type/weight/profile and OAL you are using along with the specific 1911 used.

March 10, 2014, 09:00 PM	#3
ghbucky01 Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2014 Location: Northern, KY Posts: 176	Sure, SNS LRN 230 gr 1.201 COAL Kimber Tac Pro 2

March 10, 2014, 09:07 PM	#4
Misssissippi Dave Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2009 Posts: 1,411	I hope you have some calipers or a micrometer. If you do just measure the diameter of the case about 3/16" below the mouth after it is loaded. Then measure the diameter at the mouth or very close to the end of the mouth. It should be the same or possibly a couple thousands less. You are only trying to remove the flair during the crimp and nothing more. It is possible you are loading too long or too short. Can't tell which it might be without knowing the bullet used, the over all length, and the make and model of 1911 you are loading for. You are probably loading too short. Try to make a few dummy rounds and see you they cycle with an OAL of around 1.240

March 10, 2014, 09:44 PM	#8
Valerko Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2012 Location: NY Posts: 184	Simple solution. Put lighter recoil spring or make your reloads hotter. I reload for Taurus PT1911 with relatively light recoil springs. Loads that work 100% in Taurus don't work as good in Springfield TRP with heavier slide and spring. Hotter loads , saved the problem. Lighter spring allowed me to use old loads.

March 10, 2014, 11:34 PM	#11
Axelwik Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2012 Location: Land of Enchantment Posts: 436	Get a max cartridge gauge and adjust your setup until they go in without any hang ups. Using a barrel may work sometimes, but some barrels can be fairly sloppy, and no barrel will be as tight as a max cartridge gauge. They're cheap, and will avoid a lot of frustration at the range. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/171...ge-gage-45-acp

March 11, 2014, 12:23 PM	#17
salvadore Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,282	I does sound like a load problem, but have you cleaned it lately?

March 11, 2014, 12:36 PM	#18
salvadore Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,282	I went down and measured some Lee RN 228s loads and that is a pretty short RN, I'm getting 1.247" oal.

March 11, 2014, 12:43 PM	#19
salvadore Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,282	Oops, went to check my Lee 230gr flat points and OAL is 1.196" THey feed in all three of my 1911s. Both taper crimps are .472

March 11, 2014, 12:49 PM	#20
salvadore Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,282	Also, should the OP be worried agout excess pressure when loading so deep and what the heck is SNS?

March 11, 2014, 02:08 PM	#23
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	I've shot RN bullets of different shapes and weights, and if they are truly are round, as opposed to some of the "round nose flat" bullets on the market, I'd try loading closer to 1.26", as has been suggested. I've been crimping at .470" for 20+ years, and never an issue. I am not a fan of the Lee FCD. Especially with plain lead bullets, you can run into issues with the bullet being sized down, but then not rebounding somewhat as will the brass case. You get a looser fit between the bullet and case, which can contribute to bullet set-back.

March 11, 2014, 07:22 PM	#25
Misssissippi Dave Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2009 Posts: 1,411	The short OAL used often for published data is generally the minimum OAL you should use. Going longer, so long as your don't exceed the Max OAL for the caliber and the bullet isn't hitting the rifling, tends to lower the pressure and will keep you from going too hot. Loading short has caused plenty of problems in 1911 .45 from what I have seen. All those problems were with feeding. I won't load flat point or hollow point loads shorter than 1.200" and ball rounds I won't load shorter than 1.220". This works for me. YMMV.