long range elk caliber - Page 2

taylorce1 · December 30, 2006, 01:22 PM

According to the CO Division of Wildlife an Elk/Moose centerfire rifle must be a minimum of 6mm/.243, use expanding bullets of 85 grains and have an impact energy of 1000-ft lbs at 100 yards.

So if we take the 1000-ft lb mark and use it to mark the effectiveness of the elk cartridge. Take the .30-06 then pick 3 bullet weights 150, 165, 180 grain and find the point where they fall below 1000-ft lbs. I used Federal's web sight for my data.

150 grain soft point
BC .313
energy @ 400 yards: 1127-ft lbs
energy @ 450 yards: 993-ft lbs

165 grain soft point
BC .393
energy @ 550 yards: 1025-ft lbs
energy @ 600 yards: 924-ft lbs

180 grain soft point
BC .385
energy @ 550 yards: 1000-ft lbs
energy @ 600 yards: 899-ft lbs

Quote:

I can agree with this except the "cutoff" is more like 350 to 400...

If you zeroed your rifle at 200 yards the bullet drop on all three rounds was around 24" at 400 yards, and 96" at 600. 6 feet of drop in 200 yards.

You would have to hold about 2 feet high at 400 yards so if you are hunting at this range and beyond it will take a lot more practice than just one range session to zero your rifle. The .300 Win mag only extended the 2 foot of drop mark by 50 yards with 150 grain bullets. The .300 WSM was not much improvement over the .300 Win mag. So really the .30-06 is all you will ever need to shoot elk at 300 yards and stay over the 1000-ft lb energy mark.

el Divino · December 30, 2006, 01:50 PM

yes 30-06 is enough but the best 340 wby mag, second best 338 win mag

CK1 · December 30, 2006, 03:02 PM

<<So really the .30-06 is all you will ever need to shoot elk at 300 yards and stay over the 1000-ft lb energy mark.>>

But would you really take a shot with only 1000# of energy at that range?

CK

taylorce1 · December 30, 2006, 03:52 PM

Quote:

But would you really take a shot with only 1000# of energy at that range?

If the rifle is capable of shooting 300 yards without having more than 10-12" of drop and maintains at least 1000-ft lbs of energy at that range then yes I would really take that shot with proper shot placement. The minimum caliber I would use in a .308 would be a .300 Savage for a 300 yard shot. I personally use a .270 Win loaded with 150 grain bullets for hunting elk longest shot to date is 250 yards. I'd use a .30-30 out to 150 yards on an elk, and I will be hunting them next year with that caliber to prove my point in another argument.

The 1000-ft lb isn't some magic number for killing game animals it was just a standard that the CO DOW uses to set it's regulations. Elk are not armor plated or bullet proof and they can be killed with less than a 1000-ft lbs of energy (bow and arrow, Pistol, etc). For pistol the only requirement is on energy is 500-ft lb at 50 yards, would I shoot an Elk at 300 yards? The answer is no, even though there are pistols capable of that kind of yardage.

Comparing the energy of 180 grain .308 and 150 grain .270 rounds at 300 yards again using Federal's web site:

.270 Win Nosler Partition @ 1737#
.300 Sav Soft Point @ 1218#
.30-06 Nosler Partition @ 1865#
.300 Win Nosler Partition @ 1978#
.300 WSM Nosler Partition @ 2315#
.300 Wtby Nosler Partition @ 2692#

The only thing I don't know was what test rifles were used but all the cartridges lost about 600 fps in 300 yards and between a 1000-1300-ft lbs of energy. .270 was the most efficient round in retaining energy and the .300 Weatherby lost the most. Do the Magnum cartridge hit harder at 300 yards? Yes, but at 300 yards is all that extra energy actually needed? At 300 yards and beyond you should be more worried about shot placement than energy out of any modern cartridge JMO.

CK1 I added the Weatherby cartridge just for you, I know it is the caliber that you shoot but it was the only one on Federal's web site in .308 caliber. I know you have a great affection for Weatherby rounds. I'm not picking a fight, just stirring the pot.

CK1 · December 30, 2006, 07:04 PM

taylorce1,

Great discusssion. I don't think we are too far apart and if we were having a cold one, the conversation would last about 5 minutes.

I bought my .300 Weatherby for one reason...I knew I might need to take a longer shot than my .270 was up for during my first elk hunt a few years ago (area 75 and 751 in CO). I'm comfortable shooting out to about 400 yds. and if I was going up to a .30, I wanted to make a significant step up. The .300 Weatherby is not only a big step up from the .270 but a step up from the .300 winmag and .300 wsm as well. I also prefer to take an animal (elk, deer, antelope) through the shoulder if I can. Sooooo I went for more energy with a great bullet (Barnes X).

Just curious on your thoughts....if you were going to hunt elk in grizzly country (WY), what would you take to hunt with?

I'm considering a .338-378 or .340 Weatherby. Or should I stick with the .300 weatherby? Thoughts?

BTW, how do you like the partition? What kind of groups can you get with it?

Thanks for your time.

CK

taylorce1 · December 30, 2006, 07:40 PM

CK1, I load most of my own load and only use Federal's web site for reference so others can see where I get my data for free. I've had good luck with the Partitions and get on good days sub 1" groups most days between 1-2". I've also had good luck with Sierra and Hornady bullets as well. I don't use Barnes or other expensive bullets because I hunt with what I practice and at the prices for the premium bullets I couldn't afford to shoot them.

If I were hunting in big bear country I'd use my .338-06 or my 35 Whelen. I'd load the 338 with 210 grains and the 35 with 250 grain bullets. I'm not a big fan of magnum rifles I don't like the noise or the recoil from them. These rifles would defiantly take an elk at 300 yards plus handle any bear as long as I did my part.

If I were headed to AK I'd probably buy a .338 Win Mag or a .375 H&H for bears just because the ammo is more commonly found than say that .338-378 that you dream about.

el Divino · December 30, 2006, 08:44 PM

340 wby will be enough the 338-378 has a lot more recoil, it's as 300 wby and 30-378 wby, the 378 kicks harder, I own both the only differrence is that my 30-378 has a 30 inch barrel and the 300 a 26 inch

Lazy D · December 31, 2006, 12:08 AM

would be my choice. You can push a 300 grain SMK 2750 fps. At 1 mile it still has 1000 lbft of energy. With BC .768 you can shoot them as far as you can see them. The 338 RUM is one of the most accurate large game calibers that can be had. But,....you'll want to put a muzzle brake on it. I built a Rem 700 with a 26" Shilen Stainless match barrel with a Holland quick discharge brake. You can shoot it all day long and shoots .5 MOA. w/handloads. Just my $.02

CK1 · December 31, 2006, 08:50 AM

<<Or should I stick with the .300 weatherby? >>

No takers for a .300 Weatherby w/ a 180 gr. Barnes X?

CK

Pointer · December 31, 2006, 10:43 AM

Quote:

I can agree with this except the "cutoff" is more like 350 to 400...

My "cutoff" had [COLOR="blue"]nothing whatever to do with 1000 foot pounds of energy...at any given range.

At 100 yards, 4" high, the 165 grain bullet would be zeroed at about 325 yards with a 5-1/4" trajectory at midrange, and would be about 12" low at 400... a 325-350 yard PBZ (Point Blank Zero)...

I do agree that terminal energy should be near, or above, the 1000 foot pound mark...

taylorce1 · December 31, 2006, 01:51 PM

Pointer, I didn't mean to misrepresent your quote. I totally agree with you about the .30-06 being effective out to your 350-400 yard mark. I don't think the holdover for 400 yard is that hard to compensate but if you were trying to shoot to 600 yards where the energy falls to 1000-ft lbs then you would have to compensate for 8 foot of bullet drop plus windage. I think taking the .30-06 beyond 400 yards without a extreme amount of range time at that distance is crazy.

I do not believe that 300 yards is that difficult of a shot from a steady position. 400 yards with a little understanding of bullet trajectory is pretty easy to compensate for without a fancy BDC or Mil Dot scope. To shoot beyond that the bullet falls about 18" for every 50 yards and is loosing a lot of energy.

Like I said the 1000-ft lb isn't a magic number just one that I referenced. I'll try and watch how I quote people in the future and make my meaning more clear.

Pointer · December 31, 2006, 06:16 PM

Taylorce

Quote:

Like I said the 1000-ft lb isn't a magic number just one that I referenced. I'll try and watch how I quote people in the future and make my meaning more clear.

I think maybe I over-reacted... please forgive...
I have had, what seems to me, a lot of "back-stabs and knife-twists" recently, and I was too ready to "counter".

Agreed... the really long shots on elk and moose should be reserved for true experts with .300 magnums... For 600 yards I would want the 30-338...

I love my 30-06... (surprize, surprize)

... but I would really hesitate to take a 500+ shot with it... especially on elk or moose.

I have a favorite stand for elk shooting across a large ravine... the longest shot I've had the opportunity to take, lasered at 554 yards... I had to pass it up...

That's why I now have a .325WSM Browning A-bolt... second only to the 30-338...
CK

Quote:

<<Or should I stick with the .300 weatherby? >>

No takers for a .300 Weatherby w/ a 180 gr. Barnes X?

I gave one to my brother in a Howa 1500... and he loves it...
The .300Wby is an outstanding round and the Barnes MRX is very possibly the very best bullet made... but, alas... they are both very, very expensive.

But once you own them, and you have worked up your loads and zeroed... the expense becomes only a small problem...

taylorce1 · December 31, 2006, 07:22 PM

Pointer, no problem I understand how it gets on these things once and a while. I agree with you on your love affair with the .30-06 there aren't many calibers that can do what this one can. Let us know how that .325 WSM works for you.

Zeek5793 · January 1, 2007, 07:03 PM

I've lived in Idaho for,almost 60 years, have been hunting Elk for,48 years,
So think I can say that a 30-06 is just fine, I've killed many Elk,& very large Deer with that caliber, and a couple with a 243, all one shot kills, all under 300 yd, a couple with the 06 out to 380 yd, but thats about the most the 06 is really good for. Sure you can kill, Elk at more distances, but you'r taking chances, you don't need to,
I don't like tracking wounded game, So allways wait and take the shot that will do the job with one shot,Yes I've had to track Elk, but only for about 50 or 60 yd, and if you take your time you can get within very short range, always watch the wind direction. As far a recoil, the 243 is the best by far the 30-06 depending on your loads, can be a little hard,but still ok. If I ever buy amother Elk rifle it will be a 338 wim Mag. My Grandson has one and it a Rem 700 ADL with a cynthitic stock, but it has a musselporting, He loads his own eather 225, or 250 gr spbt more than enough bullet for anything on this side of the world and it dosn't kick as bad as my 06,with 165grspbt, Hope this helps out, the main thing is use what you feel the most comfort with, I'm sure that you can find , or have some freind that have friends that have these calbers that you can shoot a few time before making up your mind,
And really the main thing is to always keep the wind in your face, some times Elk will see, and maybe even hear you at distance , you might get away with, that BUT if they SMELL you they can but so much distance between you and them in milliseconds your never see those Elk again, Guarenteed
Good Luck, GOD BLESS

Pointer · January 1, 2007, 09:36 PM

Zeek

Quote:

If I ever buy another Elk rifle it will be a 338 Win Mag

Excellent choice...

But, may I recommend you take a look at the .325WSM ballistics...

And the recoil's not bad either...

Dogjaw · January 14, 2007, 08:14 AM

Hey Weedwacker, Buy a 30-06 bolt action and you can use Hornady Light Magnum ammo. You'll have the best of both worlds. A 30-06 that is the most versitile caliber there is for varmit and deer in Wisconsin using ammo that's less recoil and expensive. Plus you can use the Light Magnum ammo for your hunt, turning you 06 into a .300 Win Mag in the performance catagory.
.30-06 Sprg., 165 gr. Hornady InterBond 85159
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle 3015/3330
100 yd - 2802/2876
200 yd - 2599/2474
300 yd - 2405/2118
400 yd - 2219/1803
500 yd - 2041/1526

Trajectory (inches)
Muzzle -1.50
100 yd 1.50
200 yd 0.00
300 yd -6.60
400 yd -19.30
500 yd -39.00

Meanwhile the Hornandy .300 Win Mag 165 gr InterBond at 400 yards is:
fps / ft-lbs
2289 / 1920
Trajectory (inches)
-18.1
An Elk won't know the difference.
https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_ses...bb152612e888c8
https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_ses...45ed83fb1f8aef

December 30, 2006, 01:50 PM	#27
el Divino Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2006 Location: Deep South Texas Posts: 228	yes 30-06 is enough but the best 340 wby mag, second best 338 win mag __________________ People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. (Orwell)

December 30, 2006, 08:44 PM	#32
el Divino Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2006 Location: Deep South Texas Posts: 228	CK1 go for the 340 wby 340 wby will be enough the 338-378 has a lot more recoil, it's as 300 wby and 30-378 wby, the 378 kicks harder, I own both the only differrence is that my 30-378 has a 30 inch barrel and the 300 a 26 inch __________________ People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. (Orwell)

December 31, 2006, 12:08 AM	#33
Lazy D Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Indian Territory Posts: 192	338 Remington Ultra Mag would be my choice. You can push a 300 grain SMK 2750 fps. At 1 mile it still has 1000 lbft of energy. With BC .768 you can shoot them as far as you can see them. The 338 RUM is one of the most accurate large game calibers that can be had. But,....you'll want to put a muzzle brake on it. I built a Rem 700 with a 26" Shilen Stainless match barrel with a Holland quick discharge brake. You can shoot it all day long and shoots .5 MOA. w/handloads. Just my $.02 __________________ "Fast is Fine but accuracy is final.".....Wyatt Earp.

January 1, 2007, 07:03 PM	#39
Zeek5793 Member Join Date: November 23, 2006 Location: Best place on Earth {IDAHO} Posts: 33	Long range Elk I've lived in Idaho for,almost 60 years, have been hunting Elk for,48 years, So think I can say that a 30-06 is just fine, I've killed many Elk,& very large Deer with that caliber, and a couple with a 243, all one shot kills, all under 300 yd, a couple with the 06 out to 380 yd, but thats about the most the 06 is really good for. Sure you can kill, Elk at more distances, but you'r taking chances, you don't need to, I don't like tracking wounded game, So allways wait and take the shot that will do the job with one shot,Yes I've had to track Elk, but only for about 50 or 60 yd, and if you take your time you can get within very short range, always watch the wind direction. As far a recoil, the 243 is the best by far the 30-06 depending on your loads, can be a little hard,but still ok. If I ever buy amother Elk rifle it will be a 338 wim Mag. My Grandson has one and it a Rem 700 ADL with a cynthitic stock, but it has a musselporting, He loads his own eather 225, or 250 gr spbt more than enough bullet for anything on this side of the world and it dosn't kick as bad as my 06,with 165grspbt, Hope this helps out, the main thing is use what you feel the most comfort with, I'm sure that you can find , or have some freind that have friends that have these calbers that you can shoot a few time before making up your mind, And really the main thing is to always keep the wind in your face, some times Elk will see, and maybe even hear you at distance , you might get away with, that BUT if they SMELL you they can but so much distance between you and them in milliseconds your never see those Elk again, Guarenteed Good Luck, GOD BLESS

January 14, 2007, 08:14 AM	#41
Dogjaw Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2001 Location: S.W. Michigan Posts: 560	Hey Weedwacker, Buy a 30-06 bolt action and you can use Hornady Light Magnum ammo. You'll have the best of both worlds. A 30-06 that is the most versitile caliber there is for varmit and deer in Wisconsin using ammo that's less recoil and expensive. Plus you can use the Light Magnum ammo for your hunt, turning you 06 into a .300 Win Mag in the performance catagory. .30-06 Sprg., 165 gr. Hornady InterBond 85159 Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs) Muzzle 3015/3330 100 yd - 2802/2876 200 yd - 2599/2474 300 yd - 2405/2118 400 yd - 2219/1803 500 yd - 2041/1526 Trajectory (inches) Muzzle -1.50 100 yd 1.50 200 yd 0.00 300 yd -6.60 400 yd -19.30 500 yd -39.00 Meanwhile the Hornandy .300 Win Mag 165 gr InterBond at 400 yards is: fps / ft-lbs 2289 / 1920 Trajectory (inches) -18.1 An Elk won't know the difference. https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_ses...bb152612e888c8 https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_ses...45ed83fb1f8aef __________________ There are three kinds of men: 1) The ones that learn by reading. 2) The few who learn by observation. 3) The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves..........

December 30, 2006, 03:02 PM	#28
CK1 Member Join Date: December 25, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 48	<<So really the .30-06 is all you will ever need to shoot elk at 300 yards and stay over the 1000-ft lb energy mark.>> But would you really take a shot with only 1000# of energy at that range? CK

December 30, 2006, 07:04 PM	#30
CK1 Member Join Date: December 25, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 48	taylorce1, Great discusssion. I don't think we are too far apart and if we were having a cold one, the conversation would last about 5 minutes. I bought my .300 Weatherby for one reason...I knew I might need to take a longer shot than my .270 was up for during my first elk hunt a few years ago (area 75 and 751 in CO). I'm comfortable shooting out to about 400 yds. and if I was going up to a .30, I wanted to make a significant step up. The .300 Weatherby is not only a big step up from the .270 but a step up from the .300 winmag and .300 wsm as well. I also prefer to take an animal (elk, deer, antelope) through the shoulder if I can. Sooooo I went for more energy with a great bullet (Barnes X). Just curious on your thoughts....if you were going to hunt elk in grizzly country (WY), what would you take to hunt with? I'm considering a .338-378 or .340 Weatherby. Or should I stick with the .300 weatherby? Thoughts? BTW, how do you like the partition? What kind of groups can you get with it? Thanks for your time. CK

December 30, 2006, 07:40 PM	#31
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,249	CK1, I load most of my own load and only use Federal's web site for reference so others can see where I get my data for free. I've had good luck with the Partitions and get on good days sub 1" groups most days between 1-2". I've also had good luck with Sierra and Hornady bullets as well. I don't use Barnes or other expensive bullets because I hunt with what I practice and at the prices for the premium bullets I couldn't afford to shoot them. If I were hunting in big bear country I'd use my .338-06 or my 35 Whelen. I'd load the 338 with 210 grains and the 35 with 250 grain bullets. I'm not a big fan of magnum rifles I don't like the noise or the recoil from them. These rifles would defiantly take an elk at 300 yards plus handle any bear as long as I did my part. If I were headed to AK I'd probably buy a .338 Win Mag or a .375 H&H for bears just because the ammo is more commonly found than say that .338-378 that you dream about.

December 31, 2006, 08:50 AM	#34
CK1 Member Join Date: December 25, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 48	<<Or should I stick with the .300 weatherby? >> No takers for a .300 Weatherby w/ a 180 gr. Barnes X? CK

December 31, 2006, 01:51 PM	#36
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,249	Pointer, I didn't mean to misrepresent your quote. I totally agree with you about the .30-06 being effective out to your 350-400 yard mark. I don't think the holdover for 400 yard is that hard to compensate but if you were trying to shoot to 600 yards where the energy falls to 1000-ft lbs then you would have to compensate for 8 foot of bullet drop plus windage. I think taking the .30-06 beyond 400 yards without a extreme amount of range time at that distance is crazy. I do not believe that 300 yards is that difficult of a shot from a steady position. 400 yards with a little understanding of bullet trajectory is pretty easy to compensate for without a fancy BDC or Mil Dot scope. To shoot beyond that the bullet falls about 18" for every 50 yards and is loosing a lot of energy. Like I said the 1000-ft lb isn't a magic number just one that I referenced. I'll try and watch how I quote people in the future and make my meaning more clear.

December 31, 2006, 07:22 PM	#38
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,249	Pointer, no problem I understand how it gets on these things once and a while. I agree with you on your love affair with the .30-06 there aren't many calibers that can do what this one can. Let us know how that .325 WSM works for you.