Do I discourage gunsmiths?

[James K]

I received an e-mail (not from Bert223 or any of the other current posters) accusing me of discouraging people who want to become gunsmiths because I "don't want the competition", and that getting into business should be easy because "all you need is an FFL."

First, I have not been an active gunsmith for about 20 years, so I am not worried about competition.

I will let others judge whether I am wrong to point out that you need a heckuva lot more than an FFL. You also need a shop, tools, serious equipment, training and experience. Not to mention knowledge about running a business, local licenses, taxes, bookkeeping, etc., etc.

Do I discourage folks? I hope not, if they are serious. We need more good gunsmiths who know what they are doing and can help us. We don't need tinkerers with a file and a screwdriver who will bugger up guns. We don't need people who chamber rifles with a twist drill. We don't need people who ruin fine shotguns or turn good pistols into junk with big hammers or welding torches. We don't need people who do "trigger jobs" that turn 1911's into machine pistols.

Yes, perhaps I do discourage those folks. Some will say that it is OK if they go into business, because they will learn. But they will learn on someone else's guns, not their own. And they will take in guns they know they won't have the time or ability to work on, and leave them sit for months or years, maybe to become a legal problem when they go out of business.

If you want to become a gunsmith, learn the trade in a school. There are some good ones. Then set up a real shop, not your kitchen table. And have enough capital for at least minimal tooling (lathe, drill press, bench grinders, etc.).

Learn enough about small business that you (or your significant other) can do the necessary paperwork. If keeping books is beyond you, find a good bookkeeper or accountant to handle the heavy work. Make sure you are within the law, and that does NOT mean just an FFL; it means zoning laws, OSHA, insurance, local licensing, security laws for gunshops, etc. Incorporation is almost a necessity; it will help shield you and your family if you really goof up and get sued.

Some people will say that I am unfair, that they started out with the "file and screwdriver" and suceeded. I can't say it can't be done, but I bet it wasn't easy, and I doubt it was a road to riches. And they never say how many mistakes they made while learning.

And yes, getting started, like getting started in any business, means money. You need capital; if you can't save enough, you might have to borrow money. There is nothing wrong with that; companies do it all the time, it is called selling stock.

On the other side of the money business, a good gunsmith can make a good living, but he will probably not become rich. You do have to like the business and like guns. But just "liking guns" does not make a gunsmith, any more than "liking people" makes a surgeon.

Jim

[Metaloy Industries]

I hear you. I don't try to discourage it either but I do tell them to go into it with their eyes wide open. Its not all glitz & glamour. It has its great times as well as its down falls. It is a business just like any other. Its tough. It can be rewarding as well.

[Scorch]

I'll agree with Metaloy: it is not a business for those looking to make a comfortable living, and it is not for people who really like shooting. People who go into the trade must love and know metal work and wood work, should have very good understanding of the intricacies of firearms, should have good machine tools and hand tools skills, and should have excellent customer service skills. Even then, it is likely that they could do better financially by working a 9 to 5 job for very moderate wages.

[Dfariswheel]

I'm retired, so from the stand point of "eliminating competition", I couldn't care less if someone wants to become a gunsmith.

I do however think it's a service to inform people who have illusions of setting up shop in the basement with a few crude tools, and expecting to actually make a living at it.

Over the years, I've seen A LOT of people attempt to become gunsmiths.
Many try it without any real formal training, or one of the rather useless correspondence courses.
Other's were military trained ARMORERS, NOT real gunsmiths.
A few were properly trained.

Where most of them made the fatal slip was in attempting to start a business cold, with no potential customer base, and often in areas without the local clientèle willing to pay the money to support a gunsmith.

Cold starting a business of any sort is do-able, but TOUGH and risky.
Talk to most any successful businessman, and they'll almost always tell about their early attempts that went bust.

No matter WHAT kind of business it is, and no matter WHO starts it up, about 40% OR MORE of new businesses simply fail.

Trying to be a professional gunsmith is tough, even if you have the natural talent for it, and MOST people DON'T have that talent.
Just wanting to be a good gunsmith, or any other skill or craft, is not enough. You need the talent for it.

The main side most people never think of is the business side.
The fact is, you are NOT a gunsmith.
You're a BUSINESSMAN, who's in the gunsmithing business.
This means you spend MOST of your day doing businessman functions, and if you're lucky, you get to do some gunsmithing in between filling out government forms, ordering supplies, talking to potential customers, trying to deal with angry or unreasonable customers, doing the accounting and tax work, trying to stay legal with your FFL license, etc.

In over 30 years as both a Master watchmaker and gunsmith, I've seen only a VERY few people who cold started a business in either field that was still in business one year later.

Them's the hard facts of business life.
If someone doesn't want to hear the truth, the best you can do is wish them well, and don't tell them "I told you so" when they bust out and loose everything they have.

[ZeroJunk]

I laughed when I read Jim's comment about chambering with a twist drill.I had a man accused of being a gunsmith backbore a shotgun barrel with a twist drill.Wish you could have seen that.

[srtrax]

I could'nt agree with you more, I went to gunsmithing school, also had business classes at the vo-tec. I opened a shop on the main drag for 5 years. Not to boast but i had a good following. But I had friends that would drop in and say "your a dollar cheaper on ammo than bass pro, wish i had known that." Bass Pro at that time was 3 hours away. I did enjoy it to a degree, but my love of custom rifles led me to close the shop. I'm in the process of hooking everything back up, and plan on playing with the machinery for myself for awhile, before doing outside work. If i had to do it over again, NO, I'm a cnc machinist now and making 3 times what i did at the gun shop. So if you tell it like it is, and your right, you better have some cash put away because it is not at all fun and games. It can be done, and is being done by people all the time, honestly i got tired of the public wanting something for nothing. That was 15 years ago, and i'll bet much has'nt changed.

[RsqVet]

Jim

You in no way discourage people... your comments are honest and to the point.

I am in a field where many "dream" of owning thier own clinic. With a few exceptions many find this is not all that it is cracked up to be and that the tasks and worries they have on their plate FAR overshadow what enjoyment they get out of "owning their own" or "being their own boss". This is because they faild to consider all of the things that you mention which ARE part a parcle of owning your own place... not something little on the side you ahve to take care of... They are major functions of the business that you must attentd to.

Anyway I can not voice my support of your comments and participation here in general strongly enough.

And I have never seen you discourge anyone from attempting to learn the art... these are two very diffirent things... learning the art vs. making a busnisess /. career out of it. Face it plenty of folks want to learn things or have the capability but may not whish to be a practioner... heck If I won the lottery I'd have a machine shop with a hardinge lathe and a nice mill et. al. and would love to learn the art of gunsmithing... with ZERO intent of ever doing it for financial gain.

On a side note Dfaris.... are you still working as a watch maker? I have 2 that need clean / lube... nothing exotic a 992 and 21J E. howard but I value them very highly and have been away from the clock / watch group long enough to have NO idea of people / prices and got badly burned once so I am bit timid... at the same time I do not want to pay Patek Phillip chrongraph overhaul prices for two relitivly simple clean / lube cases.

[steve1589]

I don't think you discourage gunsmiths. It's a hard way to make a living. You aren't going to start out cold with a client base. I had been doing it for about 10 years part time. Not enough guns coming in to even keep the lights on. Until the local gun shop ran off the gunsmith they where using. Now it is pretty dang busy. I wish I could cut down on the BS time. You do an minor repair for someone say $25 and then they want to stand around and BS for two hours. Or a customer calls wanting some night sights for some pistol that is not listed in any sight catalog. So you spend two hours on the phone making long distance calls to find them. Call the customer back to tell them how much and he says I wasn't wanting to spend that much. Time and money wasted.

[Edward429451]

My gunsmith tells me to go to his distributors website, gives me his log in info, tells me to order what I want and pay by cc, then they ship to him. His time's not wasted, I do the time consuming search. I thought that was a pretty novel idea. His time is not eaten up by my idea of the moment, and if the wrong item is ordered, it can only be my fault.

[williamd]

Being a gunsmith is a great job ... then the second job can pay the bills. No, I am not a smithy. Had some good training, worked with Ben, my teacher, and do some 'free' work but never got in a position I could launch. Still a plan ... after I retire. I like bicycles, too, so Bill's Bikes and Blasters on the shingle???

[James K]

Thanks for letting me know I am neither nuts nor discouraging. FWIW, gunsmithing is not the only "hobby business" that can fail. I knew a man whose hobby was cars; I swear he could rebuild an engine blindfolded. So he invested his life savings in a garage. But he was no businessman, did too many favors for friends, and didn't care about pricing his jobs right because he was having fun. It took him about 16 months to go broke. To make things worse, his marriage failed because he had no money and spent all his time at work. He is now working for a car dealer to try and pay off his debts and get his life back on track. Too bad.

Jim

[el Divino]

Jim don't worry, gunsmithing is for responsible people, as for me I got my training in Colorado and just do gunsmithing for myself as a hobby, even I had fixed or customized some friend's rifles but only in my free time.

[James K]

I don't know about the word "responsible." A person can be responsible and still be totally ignorant of how to do the work he is being paid to do. And even a responsible person can get in over his head when he tries to start a business with absolutely no knowledge of what doing business involves.

Steve1589, one thing I recommend is finding some guy, maybe a youngster or retiree, who will do nothing but handle the BS. He can pick up enough from the gunsmith to know you can't rechamber a .375 H&H to .22 Hornet and act as a buffer to screen out the loonies and BS artists.

Jim

[Scorch]

Thanks for letting me know I am neither nuts nor discouraging.

We never said you weren't nuts, Jim. But telling someone the truth when they want you to blow smoke up their skirts is not being discouraging. It's just honest.

[Hunter Customs]

I agree with Jim and Dfariswheel; if anyone is thinking of starting out in the gunsmith business it would be a good thing to pay attention to what they said.
Believe me it's not a 40 hour a week business. If you want 40 hours at the bench be prepared to spend at least 80 hours in the shop.
Be honest, treat people fair, don't claim to do things you can't do.
Don't price your work to cheap thinking you can under cut and run all the other smiths out of business. Most likely what will happen if you price your work to cheap is, you will end up doing shoddy work and your business will be belly up in a year.
You better know at the start what your hourly rate needs to be to maintain your business, price your work according to that, and do the best work you can do.
Don't start taking short cuts because it will show, I've seen it many times on guns that people have brought to me wanting me to repair them the right way.
Good luck to all those that are inclined to start out in the business.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

[steve1589]

Thanks for the advice Jim. I am slowly learning to weed out the BS calls. I have also got a separate phone line for the shop. I have had customers call at 7:00 a.m. on Sunday on the home phone line. Boy, the wife was pissed. Or, you have the drunk that calls at 11:00 p.m. I have also learned that the guy that drops his firearm off and wants it fixed as soon as possible will take two months to pick it up. I ordered a Colt Model O in .38 super for a guy the other day. The pistol came in and I called the guy and told him it was here. He said he would come out and pay me. He showed up with $40.00. I was not to happy about that. I wasn't awear that I was going to be taking payments. I do have some very good customers and have met a lot of people in the area that I otherwise would have never met. I have also learned not to make promises I can't keep. There are certain old .22 automatic rifles that didn't work when they were new and they will never function properly. No matter what you do to them.

[Dfariswheel]

For gunsmiths that also order an occasional gun or other items for customers, you very quickly learn it's money UP FRONT.

If they really want something, they should have no problem paying for it BEFORE you order it.
If you don't do it this way, you WILL get stiffed, and it's often friends or relatives who do it.

[T. O'Heir]

"...I ordered a...showed up with $40.00...wasn't aware..." This is why most places want the money up front for a special order. I'd have told him to come back when he has the money and told him he'd get some time, say 15 days, then it was going back or into the sales cabinet.
Jim, everything you've ever said about getting into the gun business is true and then some. Opening eyes is doing a would be smithy a favour. They never seem to understand that it's a business they're opening, not a hobby they get paid to do.

[Metaloy Industries]

Bob Hunter is exactly right. I hear many people saying, "I'm going to start a gun selling business online and give real good deals"

You price your work or products at what you need to, not what you want to in order to bring in the business.

Before I aquired Metaloy 3 years ago now, I strongly considered building high end 1911's by myself with my 15 years of pistolsmithing experience from my former employer. I ran it by two people that I think are in the know and I really trust. They told me that they had no doubt I could do it but just know now that you may starve for 3 years before things really start rolling. I think back on that advice many times and really appreciate it.

These days there is MUCH competition. I believe you HAVE to be really good at what you do and give absolutely THE best service possible or people will NOT be back. Things cost more than years past. People are much more or can be more educated by the internet than long ago. They do their research and listen to those who have had good experiences and those who have had bad. They want the best they can get and for the best price. Competition in business is great but if you don't hold the line on quality...you are GONE! Bub bye!!!

[James K]

Let me add a few more words, then I will get off the thread.

Metaloy is right about the competition, but I believe that there is more than enough room for good, competent gunsmiths who know the trade, price fairly (I didn't say cheap) and do good work in a reasonable time. They will likely get more than enough business just fixing the jobs the screwdriver-and-file "gunsmiths" have botched.

Steve points out the problem of the home shop, even where it is legal. I knew one guy who leased a store premises the day after a clown nearly battered down his house door at 4AM on opening day of deer season, demanding that the gun he broke the year before be repaired immediately. Divorcing your business premises from your home may well prevent another kind of divorce.

One true story about fast repair. A customer once brought in a Ruger .22 Auto, 7" barrel that he had dropped and now the bolt was jammed. The boss handed me the gun, and I asked if the customer was still in the shop. On being told that he had left, I whacked the gun on the carpeted bench, and fixed it. Took about 1/2 second. But don't let a customer know things can ever be that easy or they expect all repair jobs to take that length of time.

Jim

[steve1589]

I often joke that I have $50,000.00 of machinery to make $5.00 an hour. Most people don't understand that you don't wake up one morning and know how to fix every firearm that has ever been made. You may spend a couple hours just to get it apart. The ones that you see most often are easy after the first one. Or, you spend an hour crawling around the shop floor looking for a spring and plunger that flew out of some unknown location. A gunsmith needs to be able to do just about everything himself. If you have to depend on other people for stock work, metal finish, rebarreling and other machine work you will be on their time schedule not yours. I have been waiting on a stock to be checkered since before Thanksgiving. The shotgun was supposed to be a 2006 Christmas present. This was a trade. I blued some rifles in exchange for the checkering job. I went by there today. Stock and forend still sitting in the same place. I won't make that mistake twice.

[ogree]

one of my instructors once told me that repairing guns will make you enough money to keep you in beans and jeans.

[mxwelch]

Good posts. I've been a machinist for going on twenty years and I learn something almost every day. Some people think they can take a correspondence course and be running a successful gunsmithing operation in several months.

I have a guy that works with me that has no skill level but he's all the time talking of opening up his own shop. I told him the other day he had better learn how to set an offset first.

[Hobie]

Seems to me that you speak the truth. Start up of any business is a daunting task guaranteed to fail if the owner doesn't understand the market, law and how to run a business. To include the highly regulated, zero tolerance for error environment that a gunsmith must endure and many otherwise qualified may well fail. Your "correspondent" obviously has limited knowledge of the subject.

[Double J]

--Jim, I think you're pretty much on the mark. It's difficult to describe to a fresh starter all the little headaches involved. I've always tried to stay with the older guns, especially the muzzle loaders, but get my share of the modern stuff. No matter the tools we have, someone always seems to build something requireing new tools and the game goes on.
--I found it impossible to specialize in one particular area. To do so would be to turn down a dollar, which any buisness or hobby has to have to continue to pay it's way. What we tell the new guys might sometimes seem discouraging but it's honest answers from experience worth hearing. Training helps. Hands on is good. One way or the other we had to get our feet wet before we learned to swim. The learning never ends. Now, if I could just remember where I put that spring...