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Old November 13, 2018, 03:34 PM   #1
rifleman0311
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First time casting, need some words of wisdom

After about 5 years of reloading I finally started my own casting. Long story short, I went with the Lee 120-TC (9mm), used the bottom pour Lee pot and went to work. Few questions I have and would like some diagnosis.

1- I purchased a .358 sizing die and the rounds just go through it with no pressure so is it even needed? I plan to run these projectiles through multiple Glocks (gen 5, and aftermarket barrels) and CZ pistols.
2- I noticed after resizing the cases that I did not even need to flare/bell the cases as the projectiles sat nicely on the case mouth prior to seating. Is flaring needed?
3- I got the "frosty" drops. Is that a lead or mold problem?
4- I also had a good bit of wrinkles. Is that a lead or mold problem?
5- Worry about a crimp or no?

Lastly, I think it was an overall success. My biggest concern early on is safety; I can always improve the quality over time. Should I have any concerns shooting these semi wrinkled/ frosty projectiles if my load data is accurate and they feed in my pistols? I made a few dummy rounds COL 1.06 and they seemed to feed well in all the pistols I intend to shoot them out of. I plan to use the liquid alox method at first and see how it works. Dies will be either Hornady or Lee since I have both.

Any insight would be appreciated, thanks in advance
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Old November 13, 2018, 04:09 PM   #2
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The 9 mm has a 0.355" groove diameter, so a standard cast bullet size for it is 0.356", and therefore it is not surprising they would fall through a 0.358" die, which is meant for 38's (.357 jacketed and .358 cast).

The fact the bullets fall into the case mouth and that you have wrinkled bullets tells me the mold is too cold. It will be a little smaller in diameter when it is cold. Most folks set them over the pot if they are long enough (6-cavity mold) or dip one corner of the mold block in the melt to help warm it up.

Frost usually comes from excessive lead temperature, just the opposite of wrinkles, though the melt being hot doesn't mean the mold was, so you could get both at the same time, I suppose.

Usually, you need to crimp lubricated cast bullets to keep the feeding forces and recoil impact by the front of the magazine from jamming them deeper into the case.

The problem I always had with my Lee bottom-pour pot is that the thermostat depended on heat traveling through the heating coil and the side of the container to operate the thermostat inside the little box with the adjustment knob on it. That thermal contact is tenuous enough that the pot would swing 50°F up and down in temperature. I would consider getting a cheap thermocouple thermometer so you can track that. You don't want the mold to get cold, so you have to keep casting, wherever the pot is, but I would divide the bullets in two groups, depending on whether the furnace was above or below average temperature at the time of the pour to see if you can pick up a difference in quality. If so, for about $11 on eBay I picked up an electronic thermostat and thermocouple that can be hooked up as a control. You would set it to the control temperature and crank the knob on the pot all the way up, so it doesn't interfere. But keep experimenting with the pot as it is for now and save the rest until you are more confident you understand what you are doing.

Have fun learning! I will move your post to the casting forum.
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Old November 13, 2018, 05:02 PM   #3
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A quick note: Somewhere, I seem to recall that you're not supposed to shoot lead bullets in Glocks. Something to do with the type of rifling they use. Double check that.

Follow Unclenick's advice. Good stuff there. I use a ladle pour lead pot and it works just fine but I do have to keep a rhythm going. The first few boolits I cast end up being melted into the next batch of boolits. After the mold heats up after the fifth or sixth cast, they start dropping the most beautiful boolits you could ask for.

If your molds are dropping nice round boolits, you may not need a sizer die at all. My .45 ACP mold has been so close that I've never needed to size them. Quite the time saver.

A lot to learn. Read the book. The Lyman casting book is very very good and fills you in on all the details.

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Old November 13, 2018, 05:25 PM   #4
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Quote:
Somewhere, I seem to recall that you're not supposed to shoot lead bullets in Glocks.
True, but note, rifleman0311 stated "aftermarket barrels".

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Old November 14, 2018, 10:25 AM   #5
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True, but note, rifleman0311 stated "aftermarket barrels".

Dpm
Ah. Missed that. My error.

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Old November 14, 2018, 08:15 PM   #6
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Frosted bullets are OK as are small wrinkles. Any big wrinkles or wrinkles on the base get recycled.

Have success with Alox lubed lead 9mm bullets is awfully optimistic. 9mm is a small high pressure cartridge with barrel groove diameters that can be all over. I switched to powder coating bullets after having no luck with Alox in .38 Special and .45 ACP. FWIW I size all my 9mm lead to .357 and this seems to be the best comprise for accuracy and ensuring fit in every gun.
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Old November 14, 2018, 09:46 PM   #7
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Quote:
Have success with Alox lubed lead 9mm bullets is awfully optimistic. 9mm is a small high pressure cartridge with barrel groove diameters that can be all over. I switched to powder coating bullets after having no luck with Alox in .38 Special and .45 ACP. FWIW I size all my 9mm lead to .357 and this seems to be the best compromise for accuracy and ensuring fit in every gun.
I have had good results using NRA Alox 50/50 and a cast RCBS 125 grain gas checked bullets. Likewise in .38 Spl. and .45 ACP, .38 Super, .44 Spl., .44 Magnum, .45 Colt, .41 Magnum and several different rifles with cast lead...Alox has performed very well in all my cast lead bullets in the past 54 years of casting and shooting.

Nevertheless, I have changed to powder coating due to some advantages over grease type lubes (Alox 50/50). Less smoke, less mess, will not melt in heat or dry out, less "sludge" (mixture of carbon and bullet grease), to clean out of the guns. However, lack of accuracy while using Alox 50/50 was not one of the problems.
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Old November 14, 2018, 10:19 PM   #8
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Getting good accuracy with cast bullets is certainly possible. Getting good accuracy with Alox lubed cast bullets is 9mm is one of the more trickier rounds especially when the barrel gets severely leaded after 30 rounds. I'm sure it's possible to find a combination in 9mm that works, but there's a reason most people very quickly move to other methods. Cast in 9mm can be successful but most people will recommend powder coating or something similar.

I load rounds for my S&W 929 and can hit 10" plates at 100 yards 75% of the time and can shoot 16 shot 2" groups at 25 yards with ease. I've shot thousands of cast rounds this year and that includes every cartridge mentioned in post #7 along with 100's in .30-06 and .460 S&W. If I had to go back to Alox I'd probably end up buying most of my bullets.
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Old November 14, 2018, 10:56 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USSR View Post
True, but note, rifleman0311 stated "aftermarket barrels".

Dpm
Glock says dont shoot lead bullets in their guns, but they also say just as prominently to not shoot reload. You can shoot lead in glocks all day today, tomorrow, the next day and into eternity. Mine has survived 5000+ rounds with zero signs of stopping, as have many of my shooting aquantences. Its an old wives tale that got blown out of proportion.
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Old November 15, 2018, 07:32 AM   #10
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"Getting good accuracy with Alox lubed cast bullets is 9mm is one of the more trickier rounds especially when the barrel gets severely leaded after 30 rounds. I'm sure it's possible to find a combination in 9mm that works, but there's a reason most people very quickly move to other methods. "

My barrels (Luger, P38, Star Model B, Browning High Power, Colt Combat Commander in .38 Super), did not get "severly leaded after 30 rounds". As a matter of fact, I never had leading problems while using Alox 50/50 as long as I did not try to push the lead bullet beyond lead bullet capabilities (as in too soft of a bullet in a .44 Magnum or bullets not sized to the correct diameter).

Link to a study where is shows that "...most people very quickly move to other methods. "? Powder coating is a fairly recent practice...for the most part of my cast bullet shooting, grease lubes were all we had and we did not see them (especially Alox 50/50) as being problematic. That is not to say that you, may have a problem with Alox, but I and my shooting cohorts from the Alox era did not have such problems.

Last edited by dahermit; November 15, 2018 at 07:41 AM.
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Old November 15, 2018, 10:20 AM   #11
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I'm assuming your 50/50 mix was applied with a lube sizer? There's a big difference between that and rolling the bullets in some Lee Liquid Alox.

If you want to read horror stories about leading in 9mm with alox bullets, just Google it. There are probably thousands of posts on the subject. Either way, the nature of 9mm means that it is one of the more challenging rounds to get accurate results with using jacketed bullets and it gets even more difficult when using lead bullets. Does that mean it's impossible - No, just more difficult than most rounds...
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Old November 15, 2018, 10:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
I'm assuming your 50/50 mix was applied with a lube sizer? There's a big difference between that and rolling the bullets in some Lee Liquid Alox.
Your assumption is correct. NRA 50/50 Alox is NOT that that "new fangled" Lee tumble lube they call "Alox". NRA formula was 50% Alox and 50% Beeswax. The Lee stuff that they called Liquid Alox came years after the NRA formula and I never used it or any of their tumble lube bullet designs.

Last edited by dahermit; November 16, 2018 at 06:38 AM.
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Old November 16, 2018, 07:58 PM   #13
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Words of wisdom :

Don't pick up bullets just out the mould...they're hot !
Wear gloves , a shirt and long pants .
Don't enter a naked casting contest .
Keep cast bullets out of your mouth .
Wash your hands when done .
A good alloy is 50-50 mix wheel weights and lead.

Gary
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Old November 18, 2018, 11:58 PM   #14
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You’re off to a great start. Add tin to lower the surface tension of the lead, this will help with wrinkles. I like the roto metals nuggets for this. Frosted bullets are of no detriment at all.

Might consider shake and bake powder coating. Its been a resounding success for lots of folks. I highly recommend rez45’s method. Search his post and you’ll shortly find a postimg of his method with pics. Keep after it, you’ll get it squared in no time.
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Old November 20, 2018, 12:39 AM   #15
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I have cast thousands of rounds and shot my rounds through a glock - both glock and after market barrels. Glock leads more than after market.
Bullet wrinkles are most often from something not being warm. How are you heating up your mold? I usually set my mold on top of the smelter for a solid 15 minutes to warm it and the first 2 or 3 castings go back into the pot because it typically takes that many pours to properly heat the mold. I use both LEE molds in .40 and 9mm and a NOE mold in .40
I smoke my molds before use with a candle flame.

Bullet dimples come from impurities and high humidity. Are you casting when it's humid, or soon after a rain? - Don't -

I clean the leading out of my barrels with my custom swaged hollow points - find my threads on those on this board to see exactly what I mean by that - as I use 9mm brass to make a .40 JHP - the ejector rim on the 9mm shell clears all the leading out of my barrels wonderfully - but not everyone can make the investment in gear ( appx $900 ) to manage that. Before that, I'd have to put serious work into the glock barrel to clear the lead smears after between 400 & 600 rounds.

My current project is to teach myself powder coating to reduce leading.

Another way to reduce leading is to use gas checks, but you have to have bullet molds made to accept gas checks after casting.

My Lee molds do wad-cutters and those aren't great for accuracy. My NOE .402-160 rounds are beautifully accurate right out of the molds thus far. They have the better ogive for improved ballistics.

The lee .40 pretty much have to go through a sizing die or I get about 10% too big - also any castings with fins that I miss in my inspection are caught at the sizing die.

My Lee 9mm - haven't yet had any stick in the sizing die - those come out clean right out of the mold. So I think it's more about the qualities of the cavities in the molds than casting technique in my experience.
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Old November 20, 2018, 10:31 PM   #16
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As a matter of safety, I have to point out gun manufacturers advise against attempting to shoot lead out of barrels because pressure extremes occasionally occur as the lead acts like a highly viscous fluid under the bearing surface of the bullet and can create a high enough pressure to bulge barrels. If Gray Lion's approach works as well as he believes it does, it is still happening after any such pressure has already been created by the bullet bearing surface ahead of it.

I used to attempt to clean lead this way with conventional jacketed bullets back in the 1980's. I would look down the bore afterward, push a few patches of Hoppe's #9 through and a couple of dry patches and marvel at the clean mirror finish that appeared when I held the bore up to the light or shined a bore light through it. However, on one occasion I ran a bore brush through afterward. I can't recall why. Probably some lead left in the forcing cone of my Dan Wesson revolver. Looking down the bore afterward I spied matte patches where it had been a mirror finish just before. It was then I realized the lead wasn't gone. It was just ironed out into the bore surface.

I have done some experiments at target load pressures with jacketed bullets I turned in the lathe to present a full diameter sharp chamfered leading edge to the bore. It did seem to succeed in scraping lead away as long as it was proud of the tool marks in the bore, but he forcing cone of the revolver tended to bend the sharp edges a bit and they could not dig down into the inside corners of the lands well. Way too much trouble for the results obtained. I still wound up using mercury to get the rest out (now considered too dangerous to do).

For a time, after mercury got expensive and scarce, I used the Outer's Foul Out electrolytic cleaner, but it was a bother. These days I use No-Lead from the makers of Wipe-Out. In about an hour it reacts with the lead to make a crumbly compound that patches right out. The borescope shows clean surfaces. It's too easy not to use it and I don't mind letting the gun sit for an hour to save the elbow grease.
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Old November 20, 2018, 11:40 PM   #17
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I concur that the Wipe Out No-Lead is the way to go.

https://sharpshootr.com/no-lead/

I use it with excellent results.

I also use Chore Boy Copper Scrubber wrapped around a brush or bore mop.

This also is very effective.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Spic-Span...00215/22454209

One thing I would never do is use jacketed bullets to "push" the lead out.

You might get lucky 100 times, but once you create an obstruction with the lead, it is bulged barrel time or worse.
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Old November 25, 2018, 11:04 AM   #18
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Thanks for the advice. I loaded up a hundred rounds and took them to the range. COL 1.06, with 4.2 and 4.0 gr of Bullseye. Both charges seemed to work fine. Fired them from the 25 and in. I found these hundred rounds shot nicely and I was able to group them and keyhole shots during slow fire. No leading or fouling in the barrels of my CZp10 or Glock gen 5 (I actually ended up using my gen 5 barrel with the riffling pattern)
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Old November 25, 2018, 11:05 AM   #19
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...and I powder coated using harbor freight red
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Old November 25, 2018, 02:24 PM   #20
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...and I powder coated using harbor freight red
Using Harbor Freight Red in a Powder Coating Gun works fine. However, in the "Shake-n-bake" (swirl with Airsoft "BB's"), the abrasiveness of the powder abrades the lead of the bullets and the "Red" will get darker and darker as you use it, becoming "Maroon" instead of Red. It is thought that the bullet lead is then no longer encapsulated by the powder coating and it may result in lead fumes in the air when shooting...one of the supposed "advantages" of no lead in the air of other brands of powder coating.
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