.223 Failure to Extract

ahescock · August 2, 2007, 05:32 PM

I just started reloading for my RRA CAR-A4 and cannot get my rounds to consistently extract from the chamber. Some get stuck so badly that I have to use all my strength to yank them out using the charging handle.

Case length is always under 1.76" and OAL is always under 2.24". Both .223 Rem and NATO brass is getting stuck.

I am using RCBS dies, and have adjusted them in my Lee turret press to no avail. I read in another thread that RCBS dies can cause extraction problems, and that one solution is to use small base dies. Is this necessary, or should I just buy Lee dies and see if they work?

What am I doing wrong?

Scorch · August 2, 2007, 05:48 PM

Just get a set of small base dies. Autoloaders need the brass sized more than bolt actions. Use dies from whatever manufacturer you like, just make sure they are small base dies.

steve4102 · August 2, 2007, 06:01 PM

There could be a few things going on here. Your case length of 1.760 is Max, you should trim them down to 1.750. How far are you bumping the shoulders back? And the #1 question, What is the load you are using? Extraction problems are many times caused by over pressure loads.

firechicken · August 2, 2007, 06:14 PM

Are these live rounds that you're having trouble extracting, or do the fired cases not extract? If it's the live rounds, make sure your shellholder is contacting the sizing die while sizing a case. Your RCBS FL die should size your cases enough to chamber in your AR. If it's the fired cases that don't extract, I don't believe I would fire any more - possibly an overload causing the case to stick in the chamber.

ahescock · August 2, 2007, 06:45 PM

I have only reloaded .40 S&W, so rifle reloading has been a new challenge. I'm not sure what you mean by:

"How far are you bumping the shoulders back?"

To clear up any confusion, my process involves:

1. Throw mixed range brass in tumbler, sift
2. Deprime, measure, & trim/chamfer if necessary
3. Lube & then resize using RCBS dies
4. Seat primer using RCBS hand priming tool
5. Add powder, seat bullet
6. Check OAL

My loads are at the minimum 19 grains of H4198. This is not the problem, however, because I have not been firing the rounds after I realized they were getting stuck. Now I just make a small batch, load them in a mag, and see which ones get stuck and which ones eject while I manually pull the charging handle.

I am convinced my dies are not sizing properly. Going under 1.76" on case length has not made any difference (ie. those under 1.75" still get stuck with no apparent rhyme or reason).

Any more thoughts?

ahescock · August 2, 2007, 06:48 PM

Forgot to add that the shellholder is definitely touching the sizing die as I size. I could not size the brass anymore, believe me I have tried. In fact, I have gotten two cases stuck so far--despite plenty of lube.

steve4102 · August 2, 2007, 07:09 PM

Brass should be trimmed "After" sizing. The sizing process stretches the brass and can make your case length longer. Stuck cases before firing is definitely a sizing problem or a case length problem or an OAL problem.
Lets back up. What are you using for dies, exactly? What is written on the side of the sizing die you are using?
RCBS dies are excellent dies. If you are using the proper die and set up this should not happen. Purchasing a Lee set is not the answer. If there is a problem with your dies RCBS will make it right in a heart beat at no charge.
It sounds to me as if you are using an RCBS Neck Die?? Just a thought.

ahescock · August 2, 2007, 07:37 PM

My sizing dies is:

RCBS 223 S.B.F.L. 78

Appears as though I already have a small base die, so now I am thoroughly confused.

rrp · August 2, 2007, 08:55 PM

Are you lowering the ram after contact is made with the shell holder and then turning the die in another quarter turn. This should work for you. You then trim the case to 1.750 after resizing. I've done thousands of 223 and fired them with an ar and never had a problem. Also make sure the chamber of your rifle clean. Good luck and let us know what you find out.

Trapper L · August 2, 2007, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Now I just make a small batch, load them in a mag, and see which ones get stuck and which ones eject while I manually pull the charging handle.

So not all of the rounds will stick- correct? What bullet are you using? Have you checked the ones that will stick for marks on the bullet or brass where it would be sticking? I assume you have no issues with factory/military ammo. I also assume that the action runs free and doen't bind up. Have you tried cycling fired empty brass thru it to see if any of it sticks?

rn22723 · August 2, 2007, 09:23 PM

You need to start over!

You should start with setting up the die per RCBS instructions.
Clean case
Size case (I would say you need to check in the size round extracts from the the chamber before you even load it.)
Trim, deburr, and chamfer you have to do this each time.
(It is possible to crush the shoulder and this could not help with chambering and you can actually lengthen the case with sizing so it would behove you to lube the inside of the case neck )
I would remove the case lube by polishing the cases
Prime
Powder charge
Seat bullet

I would work up loads per a standard method as outlined in any full size reloading manual.

ahescock · August 2, 2007, 10:14 PM

Thanks for all the good ideas.

I have shot 100 factor rounds with no problems, so the rifle should be fine. Also, the action does not bind up at all--unless my case gets stuck of course.

I did install the RCBS die by turning it 1/2 turn after the shell holder met the die.
I have noticed marks on the metal jackets of the bullets (which are Hornady 55 grain full metal jackets).

I will size/trim/debur/chamfer my brass, load them in a mag without a bullet and see if they still stick. Then I will load and hope that you guys solved my problem.

ahescock · August 2, 2007, 10:38 PM

After a preliminary test run (3 rounds), it looks like my backwards sizing might have been the problem. Two of my test rounds I resized then trimmed--both extracted easily. The third round I trimmed then resized--it did not extract easily. I plan to do a larger test tomorrow and will let you guys know how it turns out. Thanks for all the help, I was getting very frustrated.

August 2, 2007, 05:48 PM	#2
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Just get a set of small base dies. Autoloaders need the brass sized more than bolt actions. Use dies from whatever manufacturer you like, just make sure they are small base dies. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

August 2, 2007, 06:14 PM	#4
firechicken Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2006 Location: Savannah, MO Posts: 224	Are these live rounds that you're having trouble extracting, or do the fired cases not extract? If it's the live rounds, make sure your shellholder is contacting the sizing die while sizing a case. Your RCBS FL die should size your cases enough to chamber in your AR. If it's the fired cases that don't extract, I don't believe I would fire any more - possibly an overload causing the case to stick in the chamber. __________________ The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke

August 2, 2007, 05:32 PM	#1
ahescock Junior Member Join Date: April 4, 2007 Location: Vermont Posts: 12	.223 Failure to Extract I just started reloading for my RRA CAR-A4 and cannot get my rounds to consistently extract from the chamber. Some get stuck so badly that I have to use all my strength to yank them out using the charging handle. Case length is always under 1.76" and OAL is always under 2.24". Both .223 Rem and NATO brass is getting stuck. I am using RCBS dies, and have adjusted them in my Lee turret press to no avail. I read in another thread that RCBS dies can cause extraction problems, and that one solution is to use small base dies. Is this necessary, or should I just buy Lee dies and see if they work? What am I doing wrong?

August 2, 2007, 06:01 PM	#3
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	There could be a few things going on here. Your case length of 1.760 is Max, you should trim them down to 1.750. How far are you bumping the shoulders back? And the #1 question, What is the load you are using? Extraction problems are many times caused by over pressure loads.

August 2, 2007, 06:45 PM	#5
ahescock Junior Member Join Date: April 4, 2007 Location: Vermont Posts: 12	I have only reloaded .40 S&W, so rifle reloading has been a new challenge. I'm not sure what you mean by: "How far are you bumping the shoulders back?" To clear up any confusion, my process involves: 1. Throw mixed range brass in tumbler, sift 2. Deprime, measure, & trim/chamfer if necessary 3. Lube & then resize using RCBS dies 4. Seat primer using RCBS hand priming tool 5. Add powder, seat bullet 6. Check OAL My loads are at the minimum 19 grains of H4198. This is not the problem, however, because I have not been firing the rounds after I realized they were getting stuck. Now I just make a small batch, load them in a mag, and see which ones get stuck and which ones eject while I manually pull the charging handle. I am convinced my dies are not sizing properly. Going under 1.76" on case length has not made any difference (ie. those under 1.75" still get stuck with no apparent rhyme or reason). Any more thoughts?

August 2, 2007, 06:48 PM	#6
ahescock Junior Member Join Date: April 4, 2007 Location: Vermont Posts: 12	Forgot to add that the shellholder is definitely touching the sizing die as I size. I could not size the brass anymore, believe me I have tried. In fact, I have gotten two cases stuck so far--despite plenty of lube.

August 2, 2007, 07:09 PM	#7
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	Brass should be trimmed "After" sizing. The sizing process stretches the brass and can make your case length longer. Stuck cases before firing is definitely a sizing problem or a case length problem or an OAL problem. Lets back up. What are you using for dies, exactly? What is written on the side of the sizing die you are using? RCBS dies are excellent dies. If you are using the proper die and set up this should not happen. Purchasing a Lee set is not the answer. If there is a problem with your dies RCBS will make it right in a heart beat at no charge. It sounds to me as if you are using an RCBS Neck Die?? Just a thought.

August 2, 2007, 07:37 PM	#8
ahescock Junior Member Join Date: April 4, 2007 Location: Vermont Posts: 12	My sizing dies is: RCBS 223 S.B.F.L. 78 Appears as though I already have a small base die, so now I am thoroughly confused.

August 2, 2007, 08:55 PM	#9
rrp Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2006 Location: west central Wi Posts: 300	Are you lowering the ram after contact is made with the shell holder and then turning the die in another quarter turn. This should work for you. You then trim the case to 1.750 after resizing. I've done thousands of 223 and fired them with an ar and never had a problem. Also make sure the chamber of your rifle clean. Good luck and let us know what you find out.

August 2, 2007, 09:23 PM	#11
rn22723 Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2001 Location: Burbs of Minneapolis Posts: 676	You need to start over! You should start with setting up the die per RCBS instructions. Clean case Size case (I would say you need to check in the size round extracts from the the chamber before you even load it.) Trim, deburr, and chamfer you have to do this each time. (It is possible to crush the shoulder and this could not help with chambering and you can actually lengthen the case with sizing so it would behove you to lube the inside of the case neck ) I would remove the case lube by polishing the cases Prime Powder charge Seat bullet I would work up loads per a standard method as outlined in any full size reloading manual.

August 2, 2007, 10:14 PM	#12
ahescock Junior Member Join Date: April 4, 2007 Location: Vermont Posts: 12	Thanks for all the good ideas. I have shot 100 factor rounds with no problems, so the rifle should be fine. Also, the action does not bind up at all--unless my case gets stuck of course. I did install the RCBS die by turning it 1/2 turn after the shell holder met the die. I have noticed marks on the metal jackets of the bullets (which are Hornady 55 grain full metal jackets). I will size/trim/debur/chamfer my brass, load them in a mag without a bullet and see if they still stick. Then I will load and hope that you guys solved my problem.

August 2, 2007, 10:38 PM	#13
ahescock Junior Member Join Date: April 4, 2007 Location: Vermont Posts: 12	After a preliminary test run (3 rounds), it looks like my backwards sizing might have been the problem. Two of my test rounds I resized then trimmed--both extracted easily. The third round I trimmed then resized--it did not extract easily. I plan to do a larger test tomorrow and will let you guys know how it turns out. Thanks for all the help, I was getting very frustrated.