HP and hardball on phone books

DUB · December 19, 2014, 02:50 AM

I did a test today to see how much penetration and expansion I would
get shooting phone books,using Federal HST 230 grain BJHP,and Federal
Champion 230 grain "hardball" RN, shot from my gen 4 glock 30. I did not
get good results,and I'm wondering if I did something wrong. I put phone
books of various sizes in two cardboard boxes, and taped the boxes together, for a total length of 12".I put 5 HPs and 5 hardball right in the center of the
first book. The spread of all the shots together on the first book was barely 2''.Solid,centered hits.Both types of bullet penetrated about 5".Nothing came out the back of the second box.The hardball penetrated just slightly more than the HP.Two of the five hardball rds were deformed somewhat,three were not.
Only two of the HPs expanded,and only partially and haphazardly. The other 3 did not expand at all,and were filled with paper. The 2 that partially expanded also had a lot of paper in the hollow. I was expecting better results for both types of round.Any ideas? Sorry,did not take pictures.

full case load · December 19, 2014, 07:56 AM

I don't know for sure, as I haven't tested either way. Thus, I think there would be a difference between dry and wet media. Which was yours?

SaxonPig · December 19, 2014, 09:32 AM

IME the 45 ACP doesn't produce enough velocity for reliable expansion. People have been telling me I'm wrong for years.

Packed paper is a hard target and won't even approximate living tissue. Actually, nothing replicates tissue which why bullet testing is difficult unless you shoot real animals.

481 · December 19, 2014, 09:59 AM

Try soaking the phone books in water for about 24 hours (wetpack) before shooting them. Wetpack works better than dry paper because the JHPs need a fluid to enter the JHP cavity to produce the hydraulic forces that make JHPs expand.

riverratt · December 19, 2014, 10:55 AM

That is the test that i have used for years. Your typical hp works on hydraulic pressure ( i think) so the phone books have to be wet.

I work in a foam plant and use small coolers to make a tunnel to place 5 books that i let soak over night. Behind the wet books i place 2 dry books to catch any pass through. You want to spread your shots out a bit So that the wound tracks don't intersect.

FWIW, I have tested the non bonded 230gr hst and out of a 4 and 5 in. Barrel. I always had expansion up to around 20 yards (i haven't tested past that). The 4 in. Tested at 21 ft gave me an average expansion of .72 ( 5 bullets) and the 5 in. Test yielded and average expansion of .78. Expansion after penetration of a barrier (drywall, car door panel or plywood) was iffy at best with all hollowpoints that i tested. My best results in barrier penetration expansion came from the hornady critical defense, so that's what my home defense gun has in it. My best results from the wet books (with or without clothing) came with the hst, that's what i carry every where else.

DUB · December 19, 2014, 02:20 PM

thanks for all comments.Very informative. My mistake was not soaking the books.

wogpotter · December 19, 2014, 02:53 PM

What you've done, even if it is inadvertently is a test for things like drywall over penetration.

If you're married to "wetpack" soak them close to the target. They get really, really heavy when soaked!

I've switched over to those 1 gallon wine boxes filled with water instead. They're just as informative, easier to make & MUCH easier to carry. All you do is collect empties (which may be part of the fun

), pop off the "faucet", which is just a friction fit, rinse, refill & shoot. Most pistol rounds will be exhausted & trapped in 4~5 boxes. Any that don't get punctured just drain right there, refill & use next time!

This is a 125 Gr .357 XTP fired into 6 boxes & recovered.
(picture is (c) WOGPOTTER, 2011)

Snyper · December 19, 2014, 03:39 PM

We used to do the same "tests" at the shop using our old leftover catalogs, and we found that about 8 inches of DRY catalogs would stop most handgun bullets up to 357/40 cal power levels

Black Talon 357's penetrated slightly more than most others we tried, and we generally fired from a distance of about 4 feet due to having to use a small bullet trap in the store

If they were well soaked, penetration would be more similar to flesh

481 · December 19, 2014, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wogpotter:

They're just as informative, easier to make & MUCH easier to carry.

I thought that you were going to say that they are more enjoyable to make.

You could have a "target-making party" and get all of your friends to 'help'.

southjk · December 19, 2014, 04:57 PM

When they remodeled the local courthouse many years ago one of the deputies told me they used old phone books inside the front wall of the judges benches so that if shooting broke out the judge could duck down and be afforded some protection.

wogpotter · December 20, 2014, 10:10 AM

Quote:

I thought that you were going to say that they are more enjoyable to make.

You could have a "target-making party" and get all of your friends to 'help'.

I thought I'd hinted at that. Love the party idea though!

T. O'Heir · December 20, 2014, 02:54 PM

"...did not get good results..." Yes, you did. The bullet expended all of its energy in the phone book. Of course, phone books, wet or dry, don't mean much if you're thinking the bullets will perform similarly in meat.
Plus the second shot will not be going into the same consistency of paper. The first will have made a big hole filled with confetti.
Shooting phone books is fun, but demonstrates little. Did 48 ounce cans of tomato juice with rifles and a 12 gauge slug, long ago. The rifles weren't terribly exciting, but the slug sent the can top up and over a 50 plus foot CF range back stop.

wogpotter · December 20, 2014, 04:19 PM

We used old phone books as a backstop on a .22RF only indoor range in the UK.
Worked great till someone got a deal on Soviet "training" ammo.

It turns out they used .22 tracers so the students could see where the bullets went!

Luckily they were damp by then so no huge fire but Oi! the smell of moldy smouldering phone books!

Ibmikey · December 21, 2014, 07:45 AM

What is the desired end when shooting phone books? There is data available on just about every caliber being shot into jugs, books gelatin etc. but what benefit is it to you and I. Professional testing is a separate issue and results are well documented. I use phone books to top off my shooting barrel where I test weapons I have worked on, my intention is to help stop the bullet so it does not penetrate the sand deeply. I make sure the barrel opening is covered with a heavy plastic bag to keep the confetti created to remain in the barrel. I change the sand every couple of years just to rid myself of any unturned powder that could ignite. Also you should fire your shots into undisturbed material each time or your results will be invalid anyway, whatever information you are trying to achieve.......but it is fun doing stuff like that.

December 19, 2014, 02:50 AM	#1
DUB Member Join Date: June 25, 2014 Location: Texas Posts: 43	HP and hardball on phone books I did a test today to see how much penetration and expansion I would get shooting phone books,using Federal HST 230 grain BJHP,and Federal Champion 230 grain "hardball" RN, shot from my gen 4 glock 30. I did not get good results,and I'm wondering if I did something wrong. I put phone books of various sizes in two cardboard boxes, and taped the boxes together, for a total length of 12".I put 5 HPs and 5 hardball right in the center of the first book. The spread of all the shots together on the first book was barely 2''.Solid,centered hits.Both types of bullet penetrated about 5".Nothing came out the back of the second box.The hardball penetrated just slightly more than the HP.Two of the five hardball rds were deformed somewhat,three were not. Only two of the HPs expanded,and only partially and haphazardly. The other 3 did not expand at all,and were filled with paper. The 2 that partially expanded also had a lot of paper in the hollow. I was expecting better results for both types of round.Any ideas? Sorry,did not take pictures. Last edited by DUB; December 19, 2014 at 02:52 AM. Reason: clean up

December 19, 2014, 07:56 AM	#2
full case load Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Posts: 166	I don't know for sure, as I haven't tested either way. Thus, I think there would be a difference between dry and wet media. Which was yours? __________________ live and let live

December 19, 2014, 09:59 AM	#4
481 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2011 Posts: 540	Try soaking the phone books in water for about 24 hours (wetpack) before shooting them. Wetpack works better than dry paper because the JHPs need a fluid to enter the JHP cavity to produce the hydraulic forces that make JHPs expand. __________________ QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION

December 19, 2014, 02:20 PM	#6
DUB Member Join Date: June 25, 2014 Location: Texas Posts: 43	comments thanks for all comments.Very informative. My mistake was not soaking the books.

December 19, 2014, 02:53 PM	#7
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	What you've done, even if it is inadvertently is a test for things like drywall over penetration. If you're married to "wetpack" soak them close to the target. They get really, really heavy when soaked! I've switched over to those 1 gallon wine boxes filled with water instead. They're just as informative, easier to make & MUCH easier to carry. All you do is collect empties (which may be part of the fun ), pop off the "faucet", which is just a friction fit, rinse, refill & shoot. Most pistol rounds will be exhausted & trapped in 4~5 boxes. Any that don't get punctured just drain right there, refill & use next time! This is a 125 Gr .357 XTP fired into 6 boxes & recovered. (picture is (c) WOGPOTTER, 2011) __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.” Last edited by wogpotter; December 19, 2014 at 03:03 PM.

December 19, 2014, 09:32 AM	#3
SaxonPig Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2006 Posts: 1,900	IME the 45 ACP doesn't produce enough velocity for reliable expansion. People have been telling me I'm wrong for years. Packed paper is a hard target and won't even approximate living tissue. Actually, nothing replicates tissue which why bullet testing is difficult unless you shoot real animals.

December 19, 2014, 10:55 AM	#5
riverratt Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2014 Posts: 314	That is the test that i have used for years. Your typical hp works on hydraulic pressure ( i think) so the phone books have to be wet. I work in a foam plant and use small coolers to make a tunnel to place 5 books that i let soak over night. Behind the wet books i place 2 dry books to catch any pass through. You want to spread your shots out a bit So that the wound tracks don't intersect. FWIW, I have tested the non bonded 230gr hst and out of a 4 and 5 in. Barrel. I always had expansion up to around 20 yards (i haven't tested past that). The 4 in. Tested at 21 ft gave me an average expansion of .72 ( 5 bullets) and the 5 in. Test yielded and average expansion of .78. Expansion after penetration of a barrier (drywall, car door panel or plywood) was iffy at best with all hollowpoints that i tested. My best results in barrier penetration expansion came from the hornady critical defense, so that's what my home defense gun has in it. My best results from the wet books (with or without clothing) came with the hst, that's what i carry every where else.

December 19, 2014, 03:39 PM	#8
Snyper Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2013 Location: Eastern NC Posts: 3,047	We used to do the same "tests" at the shop using our old leftover catalogs, and we found that about 8 inches of DRY catalogs would stop most handgun bullets up to 357/40 cal power levels Black Talon 357's penetrated slightly more than most others we tried, and we generally fired from a distance of about 4 feet due to having to use a small bullet trap in the store If they were well soaked, penetration would be more similar to flesh __________________ One shot, one kill

December 19, 2014, 04:57 PM	#10
southjk Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2012 Location: Memphis Posts: 468	When they remodeled the local courthouse many years ago one of the deputies told me they used old phone books inside the front wall of the judges benches so that if shooting broke out the judge could duck down and be afforded some protection.

December 20, 2014, 02:54 PM	#12
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...did not get good results..." Yes, you did. The bullet expended all of its energy in the phone book. Of course, phone books, wet or dry, don't mean much if you're thinking the bullets will perform similarly in meat. Plus the second shot will not be going into the same consistency of paper. The first will have made a big hole filled with confetti. Shooting phone books is fun, but demonstrates little. Did 48 ounce cans of tomato juice with rifles and a 12 gauge slug, long ago. The rifles weren't terribly exciting, but the slug sent the can top up and over a 50 plus foot CF range back stop. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

December 20, 2014, 04:19 PM	#13
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	We used old phone books as a backstop on a .22RF only indoor range in the UK. Worked great till someone got a deal on Soviet "training" ammo. It turns out they used .22 tracers so the students could see where the bullets went! Luckily they were damp by then so no huge fire but Oi! the smell of moldy smouldering phone books! __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

December 21, 2014, 07:45 AM	#14
Ibmikey Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2013 Location: Now relocated to Texas Posts: 2,943	What is the desired end when shooting phone books? There is data available on just about every caliber being shot into jugs, books gelatin etc. but what benefit is it to you and I. Professional testing is a separate issue and results are well documented. I use phone books to top off my shooting barrel where I test weapons I have worked on, my intention is to help stop the bullet so it does not penetrate the sand deeply. I make sure the barrel opening is covered with a heavy plastic bag to keep the confetti created to remain in the barrel. I change the sand every couple of years just to rid myself of any unturned powder that could ignite. Also you should fire your shots into undisturbed material each time or your results will be invalid anyway, whatever information you are trying to achieve.......but it is fun doing stuff like that.