Is the 9mm enough gun? - Page 6

Bartholomew Roberts · February 22, 2011, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hogwiley

I still get annoyed when I hear the term shot placement. The term implies someone is going to be able to deliberately "place" a bullet in a precise location. Were not talking about a target range, were talking about a moving ducking darting 3 dimensional target who is fighting back trying to kill you, very likely in low light conditions, while your heart is thumping a thousand beats a minute.

Reality can be annoying at times; but unfortunately, it is the truth in this case. The most important factor in how effective your bullet will be is where it ends up.

And you're right, it is absolutely not an easy task to place rounds in a precise location while other people shoot at you; but nevertheless, the location makes more difference than any other factor. This is why we train - to be able to perform better than average.

Quote:

How many police shootings do we hear about where the cops fire like 14 rounds at the suspect, and miss every single one.

Clearly the training they had did not serve them well. Now, is that because it is impossible to train to accurately place shots in that scenario or is it because the training they had didn't prepare them for it?

IMTHDUKE · February 22, 2011, 11:20 AM

Wish I had said that

Seaman · February 22, 2011, 09:55 PM

June 20, 1994, Fairchild Airforce Base, Dean Mellberg, armed with an AK 47 went on a killing spree murdering 5 and wounding many others. At a distance of 70 yards, (210 ft) Mellberg was shot dead (between the eyes) by Airforce Security Policeman Andy Brown using a 9mm (fmj) pistol. Brown was awarded the Airman's Medal by President Clinton.

On August 18, 2002, on the Russian River in Alaska, at a distance of 5 feet, Garen Brenner shot a charging Grizzly 2 times in the chest with a 9mm pistol. The bear dropped at Mr. Brenner's feet and he shot it three more times in the head. A Wildlife official said that it was unusual to see such a small caliber handgun stop a bear, but that the 9mm fmj bullets penetrated very deeply into vital organs.

If you can shoot straight, the 9mm is a deadly and effective stopper, especially in fmj.

balance · February 22, 2011, 11:01 PM

If shot placement isn't a realistic factor in a defensive shooting, then why practice with any pistol at all? Why not just buy a .500 S&W revolver, hope to hit the target, and call it a day?

Obviously there are advantages to having more capacity and less recoil in a carry piece. Maybe if those cops were using a more easily controllable pistol, they would have gotten a hit. I sure wouldn't be arguing that they need a heavier recoiling pistol.

I understand someone in an area populated with bears or lions would want a bigger pistol than a 9mm, but they probably wouldn't pick a .40 or .45 either since they would probably consider them just as weak or ineffective.

I believe a larger bullet that penetrates to the same depth will cause more damage, but I don't believe that a small fraction of an inch will change the end result, and I wouldn't trade capacity and controllability for a half of a tenth of an inch.

5whiskey · February 23, 2011, 12:35 AM

simply... yes

PIGMAN · February 23, 2011, 03:07 AM

It is the minimum.Generally,stopping power is attributable to heavy bullets and for this reason I carry a .45 ACP.

BlueTrain · February 23, 2011, 07:28 AM

Does anyone here believe in full metal jacket bullets? And in any particular configuration, such as flat point?

Seaman · February 23, 2011, 09:26 AM

FMJ (and hard cast lead) is reliable and effective, an excellent stopper when shot accurately. This has been proven time and time again.

Mention was made of the Miami shootout. FBI did a good job there, they even had S&W 357 handguns, but they were using 158 gr hollowpoint +P ammo, hit the perps 4 times in the head, ammo flattened and bounced off, left the bad guys still in the fight. Wrong ammo. Needed fmj. Some time ago couldn't get any fmj for my S&W M13, stopped carrying it.

Out in my neck of the woods we have signs - " Prison Area Do Not Pick Up Hitcthhikers. "

I've seen these dudes, some of them are like 300 lbs and agile too. Give me hot fmj in 9mm or 45 ACP and keep your ballistic gel, I live in the real world.

pgdion · February 23, 2011, 09:45 AM

The 9mm is plenty even in standard loads. With +P and a little heavier bullet (I like the 124gr myself) it easily does fine. I'm looking at a .40 and want to get a .45 but these are just to round out the collection (the .45 sure is fun to shoot!

), the 9mm will still be my home defense and carry. I like the extra rounds myself, especially with some of the news these days (gang/group robberies) and ... it's what I shoot best with.

BlueTrain · February 23, 2011, 10:19 AM

I have often thought a hard cast lead semi-wadcutter in .45 auto would be a good all purpose load, although it doesn't seem to be commercially available except from custom loaders and even then it is more than likely to be a mid-range load. However, not all guns will be happy with that sort of bullet.

In theory, one could say the same thing about the 9mm but I'm not even sure there is a real semi-wadcutter in the 115 to 125 grain weight. I have loaded swaged 158-grain semi-wadcutters (more like semi-semi-wadcutters) in 9mm but I don't consider it worth the trouble. I actually found that load in some published reloading data, I think from a powder company, but it was a low velocity load and I doubt it would be as good as more conventional loads.

While on the subject, I had one Star automatic which would not feed (at all) any hollowpoint, yet worked very well with any lead bullet reload. That comes under the heading of "your experience may differ."

I used the expression semi-semi-wadcutter above because swaged bullets never seem to have real sharp shoulders like you get with a hard cast bullet. Also, I bring up the subject because the old-timers like Elmer Keith seemed to always prefer hard cast semi-wadcutters (Keith-style, of course) and also in their revolvers. There's no reason they wouldn't work just as well out of an automatic but the same people sometimes referred to hollowpoints as "trick bullets."

JustinNC · February 23, 2011, 01:44 PM

I hope so...and hope FMJ's will stop em until I find some hollow points. Something is better than nothing for now, but Ive been to 6 stores so far that carry nothing but FMJ's.

AustinTX · February 23, 2011, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Microman - You did not state the purpose of the round.
What specific need do you have?

I think it's pretty clear that the OP is looking for something adequate for hunting African Cape buffalo.

AustinTX · February 23, 2011, 03:38 PM

Quote:

I've seen these dudes, some of them are like 300 lbs and agile too. Give me hot fmj in 9mm or 45 ACP and keep your ballistic gel, I live in the real world.

Bad news for you, then. In the real world, 9mm hollow-point ammo is on average much more effective against human assailants than 9mm FMJ.

BlueTrain · February 23, 2011, 03:51 PM

On the subject of using a handgun against dangerous animals, which has been touched upon from time to time here in many interesting threads, it has always been considered handy to have a pistol close at hand in places where one might meet with something with sharp claws. In fact, old advertisements for some handguns spoke to the power of their models for just such a thing. It is curious that you don't see such advertising now.

Probably the one model that made the most direct appeal as a sportsman's sidearm was the Colt .38 Super and before that, the .38 ACP. The penetrating ability was the selling point. And you can still buy a Colt .38 Super, too.

One doesn't find a lot written about the nitty-gritty of actually doing anything like that, in spite of all the grizzly bear stories. One older writer, writing many long years ago in an African context, I think, did not dwell too much of specific models, and even included .455 revolvers as a possible choice. The most interesting thing, however, was that the writer apparently expected that any defensive shooting with your handgun was going to be at near contact range and actually mentioned the increased damage the muzzle blast would cause. A 9mm is probably up to the task but I rather doubt I'd be all that cool if it came to that.

ET. · February 23, 2011, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by microman:

Hope this doesn't come off as a caliber war because thats not what I want.

Did you really think this wouldn't become a caliber war? Really? No I mean REALLY?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueTrain:

Does anyone here believe in full metal jacket bullets?

I truly believe in full metal jacket bullets. I hope this doesn't turn out like that Easter Bunny thing.

Seaman · February 23, 2011, 07:51 PM

"the same people sometimes referred to hollowpoints as "trick bullets." " [BlueTrain]

I call hp's and today's other wonder bullets 'shrapnel' because that is what they remind me of.

"I think it's pretty clear that the OP is looking for something adequate for hunting African Cape buffalo." [AustinTX]

Not exactly Cape Buffalo but during a bloodless bullfight in Massachusetts a 1400 lb. all-muscle bull broke loose and charged a police officer who shot it with his Beretta 92 until his pistol jammed, the bull then gored him in the upper leg and groin. A policewoman came to the rescue and shot the bull between the eyes with her Beretta 92, stunning the charging bull and causing it to stagger off to where it was put down when backup arrived.*
*Animal Planet, Human Prey - Killers on the loose.

"Bad news for you, then. " [AustinTX]

Thank you for your concern, I can only hope that should I be attacked by a gang of perps tonite, they will be shooting hp's, thus giving me a greater chance of survival.

"Did you really think this wouldn't become a caliber war? Really? No I mean really? " [ET.]

It would be difficult to discuss any cartridge without bringing other calibers. And this discussion has been civil and informative, and as far as the 9mm cartridge is concerned, its pretty versatile and capable.

Well I'm off to the great north where there ain't no internet, so I'll check in next week...yuh'all keep your radar up and don't forget to check your six.

dosjoel · February 23, 2011, 08:10 PM

If you suddenly found yourself facing agressors, armed and dangerous, and you could have any caliber handgun in your hand and (assuming proficiency) what would it be?

For me, its 45 acp.

On the other hand, I find the 9 easier to carry daily and that is usually my choice.

Let's put it another way; If you knew you were going to get shot and God said, "You can have your choice of calibers, 9, 40, or 45..."

What would you reply? The last thing on my mind would be a 45!

balance · February 23, 2011, 08:38 PM

If I was as quick and accurate with a .500 S&W as a 9mm, and capacity was somehow the same, I would choose that, if I chose to go with a more powerful round than the 9mm, I wouln't go with something as similar to it as a .40 or.45. But how would proficiency be the same since one has a stronger recoil and muzzle flip than the other?

And if I had the choice of which caliber to get shot with between the 9mm, .40, or .45, of course I would choose the 9mm. But if I got shot in the foot with the 9, would I have any less of a limp than with a 45? If I got shot in the kneecap with a 9, would I have less of a limp than with a 45? If I got shot in the shoulder with a 9, would I have any more use of my arm than if I got shot with a 45? If I got shot in the heart with a 9, would I be any less dead than with a 45? If I got shot in the head with a 9, would I be any less dead than with a 45?

I'd rather choose where I got shot, than what I got shot with.

Mello2u · February 23, 2011, 08:54 PM

Quote:

microman

Is the 9mm enough gun?

But.. is the 9mm enough with premium ammo? I got more capacity and with +p I know I am getting some extra oomph.

Is the nine fine?

Assuming that you can achieve good bullet placement then you have to decide if you are comfortable with the round you choose.
Will the bullet penetrate deeply enough?
Will the bullet hold together?
Will it expand?

As I have posted before:

For the sake of simplicity and illustrating the amount of energy needed in a handgun bullet, I will address only the most common cause of threat incapacitation, blood loss and loss of blood pressure.

The kinetic energy generated by a handgun bullet is only important in that it be sufficient to generate a wound channel in the target of sufficient depth and diameter (volume) to cause "quick" incapacitation. It takes energy to crush tissue. The crushed tissue causes bleeding. Bleeding causes loss of function and incapacitation.

The body is made up of different types of tissue. Bone being the most common "hard" tissue. The rest is somewhere near the density of water, some greater and some less.

If the bullet you choose hits and destroys an amount of blood vessel rich tissue sufficient to cause bleeding at a rate which will incapacitate your threat in a time period that is within the range of seconds you are willing to accept, then you have you solution. You have the parameters before you to consider.

Obviously, the larger the diameter of the wound channel the better, and the deeper the wound channel the better, up to the point of leaving the body.

Bullet placement, in all three dimensions, is critical in causing incapacitation.

mathman · February 24, 2011, 12:58 AM

Quote:

I think the point made is that the .45acp is not the fantastic killing machine of legend but has its limitations just like any pistol caliber does.

Wow...imagine that...you mean it's not a lethal death ray?

It's a handgun cartridge folks...any of them are inadequate when they don't kill and more than adequate when they do kill.

The search feature could be useful here...eh?

BlueTrain · February 24, 2011, 06:33 AM

While the search feature is somewhat useful, if you used it a lot, it would pretty much kill the forum and, besides, there's always something new just around the corner, be it a new gun or a new point of view.

Now, to Mr. gunnotes, does not any bullet need to reach the vitals to be effective? And what is longer range? With a handgun, anything beyond 25 yards is long range (with apologies to Elmer Keith), not because of the drop in cartridge performance but because of the typical drop in accuracy, although I expect most of you all are much better shots than I am.

pgdion · February 24, 2011, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Ive been to 6 stores so far that carry nothing but FMJ's.

I've notice hollow point 9 hard to find in stores too, I think online ordering is the best route there. I have been able to find 124gr in stores though. I can usually get American Eagle 124gr which have good specs at 364lbs of force or Sellier-Bellot 124gr which at least spec like a +P at 384lbs (same as the Golden Saber 124gr +P). I can usually find them at Cabelas or Gander Mtn. (sometimes I can even find the American Eagle at Wally World). Personally I like the American Eagle 124gr and it's not usually that hard to find.

Gunnotes ... nice write up, I sure agree.

COSteve · February 24, 2011, 11:08 AM

The 9mm, like the 380 is better than nothing but in truth, the 9mm bullet is on the small size and weight end of effective defensive ammo. As is being proved by the Armed Forces currently, the 9mm is severely limited in it's useful application and there are many, many calls for a larger caliber to replace it.

As to gunnotes' mention of a 'heavy' 124grn bullet, please! A 9mm sized bullet (.355" dia.) at that weight is considered a lightweight pistol bullet. 9mm ammo with 147grn bullets are 'heavy' for a 9mm round and 357mag ammo (only .002" dia. larger) come in 158grn and 180grn offerings. Those are considered 'heavy' for that diameter class (.355" - .357" dia).

Further, his example with the deer proves nothing other than the shooter didn't have much luck with bullet placement because his initial shots were only 'wounding strikes' which incapacitated the deer but didn't put it down for good.

Proven premium defensive semi-auto ammo has much higher muzzle energy than the 9mm produces. The 40s&w and 45acp both produce larger wound channels and tissue disruption and deliver well over 400lb/ft muzzle energy on the way to the vital organs. They also are larger in diameter and considerably heavier increasing their momentum. The 10mm is an even higher class energy category producing 700 to over 800lb/ft muzzle energy.

Again, if a 9mm is all you have then it's better than nothing but if you're serious about self defense and are willing to practice to become proficient, then a larger caliber, heavier weight bullet class is a better self defense choice.

FreakGasolineFight · February 24, 2011, 11:50 AM

Enough for normal SD, sure.

Enough for hunting water buffalo, probably not.

balance · February 24, 2011, 03:52 PM

But the .40 or .45 probably wouldn't be good for Buffalo either.

People in the military are asking for a larger round than the .223 for their rifles too, does that make the .223 weak or innefective? Some people would probably say so, and then tout the .45 as a "manstopper".

If you look at the link on post #54, all of the rounds expand to within .12 of an inch of each other, and penetrate to within an inch of each other. Was this test flawed? Will .12 of an inch really make a difference worth trading capacity and controllabiliy for? Will an inch make a difference worth trading capacity and controllabiliy for? In military fmj rounds, will a tenth of an inch really make a difference if both rounds hit the same place? Really?

If it will, can someone explain why? Considering the size of the human body, what is .1 of an inch?

February 22, 2011, 11:20 AM	#127
IMTHDUKE Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2004 Location: Sweet Home Alabama Posts: 1,475	Wish I had said that __________________ http://www.treasureislandbedandbreakfast.com Ed Brown Alpha Carry\| Sig P238, P938, P232, 1911 C3 \| Colt Defender, Mustang Pocketlite, 1911 \| Rohrbaugh R9 \| Browning, Buckmark 22LR(suppressed) \| Kahr PM9 Black Rose \| S&W\|M&P C.O.R.E RMR Trijicon \| Dan Wesson ECO

February 23, 2011, 07:28 AM	#132
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	Does anyone here believe in full metal jacket bullets? And in any particular configuration, such as flat point? __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

February 23, 2011, 09:45 AM	#134
pgdion Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2010 Location: MPLS, MN Posts: 1,214	The 9mm is plenty even in standard loads. With +P and a little heavier bullet (I like the 124gr myself) it easily does fine. I'm looking at a .40 and want to get a .45 but these are just to round out the collection (the .45 sure is fun to shoot! ), the 9mm will still be my home defense and carry. I like the extra rounds myself, especially with some of the news these days (gang/group robberies) and ... it's what I shoot best with. __________________ 597 VTR, because there's so many cans and so little time!

February 23, 2011, 10:19 AM	#135
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	I have often thought a hard cast lead semi-wadcutter in .45 auto would be a good all purpose load, although it doesn't seem to be commercially available except from custom loaders and even then it is more than likely to be a mid-range load. However, not all guns will be happy with that sort of bullet. In theory, one could say the same thing about the 9mm but I'm not even sure there is a real semi-wadcutter in the 115 to 125 grain weight. I have loaded swaged 158-grain semi-wadcutters (more like semi-semi-wadcutters) in 9mm but I don't consider it worth the trouble. I actually found that load in some published reloading data, I think from a powder company, but it was a low velocity load and I doubt it would be as good as more conventional loads. While on the subject, I had one Star automatic which would not feed (at all) any hollowpoint, yet worked very well with any lead bullet reload. That comes under the heading of "your experience may differ." I used the expression semi-semi-wadcutter above because swaged bullets never seem to have real sharp shoulders like you get with a hard cast bullet. Also, I bring up the subject because the old-timers like Elmer Keith seemed to always prefer hard cast semi-wadcutters (Keith-style, of course) and also in their revolvers. There's no reason they wouldn't work just as well out of an automatic but the same people sometimes referred to hollowpoints as "trick bullets." __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

February 23, 2011, 03:51 PM	#139
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	On the subject of using a handgun against dangerous animals, which has been touched upon from time to time here in many interesting threads, it has always been considered handy to have a pistol close at hand in places where one might meet with something with sharp claws. In fact, old advertisements for some handguns spoke to the power of their models for just such a thing. It is curious that you don't see such advertising now. Probably the one model that made the most direct appeal as a sportsman's sidearm was the Colt .38 Super and before that, the .38 ACP. The penetrating ability was the selling point. And you can still buy a Colt .38 Super, too. One doesn't find a lot written about the nitty-gritty of actually doing anything like that, in spite of all the grizzly bear stories. One older writer, writing many long years ago in an African context, I think, did not dwell too much of specific models, and even included .455 revolvers as a possible choice. The most interesting thing, however, was that the writer apparently expected that any defensive shooting with your handgun was going to be at near contact range and actually mentioned the increased damage the muzzle blast would cause. A 9mm is probably up to the task but I rather doubt I'd be all that cool if it came to that. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

February 22, 2011, 09:55 PM	#128
Seaman Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2011 Posts: 654	June 20, 1994, Fairchild Airforce Base, Dean Mellberg, armed with an AK 47 went on a killing spree murdering 5 and wounding many others. At a distance of 70 yards, (210 ft) Mellberg was shot dead (between the eyes) by Airforce Security Policeman Andy Brown using a 9mm (fmj) pistol. Brown was awarded the Airman's Medal by President Clinton. On August 18, 2002, on the Russian River in Alaska, at a distance of 5 feet, Garen Brenner shot a charging Grizzly 2 times in the chest with a 9mm pistol. The bear dropped at Mr. Brenner's feet and he shot it three more times in the head. A Wildlife official said that it was unusual to see such a small caliber handgun stop a bear, but that the 9mm fmj bullets penetrated very deeply into vital organs. If you can shoot straight, the 9mm is a deadly and effective stopper, especially in fmj.

February 22, 2011, 11:01 PM	#129
balance Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Posts: 396	If shot placement isn't a realistic factor in a defensive shooting, then why practice with any pistol at all? Why not just buy a .500 S&W revolver, hope to hit the target, and call it a day? Obviously there are advantages to having more capacity and less recoil in a carry piece. Maybe if those cops were using a more easily controllable pistol, they would have gotten a hit. I sure wouldn't be arguing that they need a heavier recoiling pistol. I understand someone in an area populated with bears or lions would want a bigger pistol than a 9mm, but they probably wouldn't pick a .40 or .45 either since they would probably consider them just as weak or ineffective. I believe a larger bullet that penetrates to the same depth will cause more damage, but I don't believe that a small fraction of an inch will change the end result, and I wouldn't trade capacity and controllability for a half of a tenth of an inch.

February 23, 2011, 12:35 AM	#130
5whiskey Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2005 Location: US Posts: 3,657	simply... yes

February 23, 2011, 03:07 AM	#131
PIGMAN Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2011 Location: ARIZONA Posts: 175	It is the minimum.Generally,stopping power is attributable to heavy bullets and for this reason I carry a .45 ACP.

February 23, 2011, 09:26 AM	#133
Seaman Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2011 Posts: 654	FMJ (and hard cast lead) is reliable and effective, an excellent stopper when shot accurately. This has been proven time and time again. Mention was made of the Miami shootout. FBI did a good job there, they even had S&W 357 handguns, but they were using 158 gr hollowpoint +P ammo, hit the perps 4 times in the head, ammo flattened and bounced off, left the bad guys still in the fight. Wrong ammo. Needed fmj. Some time ago couldn't get any fmj for my S&W M13, stopped carrying it. Out in my neck of the woods we have signs - " Prison Area Do Not Pick Up Hitcthhikers. " I've seen these dudes, some of them are like 300 lbs and agile too. Give me hot fmj in 9mm or 45 ACP and keep your ballistic gel, I live in the real world.

February 23, 2011, 01:44 PM	#136
JustinNC Member Join Date: August 17, 2005 Posts: 36	I hope so...and hope FMJ's will stop em until I find some hollow points. Something is better than nothing for now, but Ive been to 6 stores so far that carry nothing but FMJ's.

February 23, 2011, 07:51 PM	#141
Seaman Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2011 Posts: 654	"the same people sometimes referred to hollowpoints as "trick bullets." " [BlueTrain] I call hp's and today's other wonder bullets 'shrapnel' because that is what they remind me of. "I think it's pretty clear that the OP is looking for something adequate for hunting African Cape buffalo." [AustinTX] Not exactly Cape Buffalo but during a bloodless bullfight in Massachusetts a 1400 lb. all-muscle bull broke loose and charged a police officer who shot it with his Beretta 92 until his pistol jammed, the bull then gored him in the upper leg and groin. A policewoman came to the rescue and shot the bull between the eyes with her Beretta 92, stunning the charging bull and causing it to stagger off to where it was put down when backup arrived.* *Animal Planet, Human Prey - Killers on the loose. "Bad news for you, then. " [AustinTX] Thank you for your concern, I can only hope that should I be attacked by a gang of perps tonite, they will be shooting hp's, thus giving me a greater chance of survival. "Did you really think this wouldn't become a caliber war? Really? No I mean really? " [ET.] It would be difficult to discuss any cartridge without bringing other calibers. And this discussion has been civil and informative, and as far as the 9mm cartridge is concerned, its pretty versatile and capable. Well I'm off to the great north where there ain't no internet, so I'll check in next week...yuh'all keep your radar up and don't forget to check your six.

February 23, 2011, 08:10 PM	#142
dosjoel Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 142	If at the moment... If you suddenly found yourself facing agressors, armed and dangerous, and you could have any caliber handgun in your hand and (assuming proficiency) what would it be? For me, its 45 acp. On the other hand, I find the 9 easier to carry daily and that is usually my choice. Let's put it another way; If you knew you were going to get shot and God said, "You can have your choice of calibers, 9, 40, or 45..." What would you reply? The last thing on my mind would be a 45! __________________ DosJoel "God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." - Anonymous Soldier.

February 23, 2011, 08:38 PM	#143
balance Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Posts: 396	If I was as quick and accurate with a .500 S&W as a 9mm, and capacity was somehow the same, I would choose that, if I chose to go with a more powerful round than the 9mm, I wouln't go with something as similar to it as a .40 or.45. But how would proficiency be the same since one has a stronger recoil and muzzle flip than the other? And if I had the choice of which caliber to get shot with between the 9mm, .40, or .45, of course I would choose the 9mm. But if I got shot in the foot with the 9, would I have any less of a limp than with a 45? If I got shot in the kneecap with a 9, would I have less of a limp than with a 45? If I got shot in the shoulder with a 9, would I have any more use of my arm than if I got shot with a 45? If I got shot in the heart with a 9, would I be any less dead than with a 45? If I got shot in the head with a 9, would I be any less dead than with a 45? I'd rather choose where I got shot, than what I got shot with.

February 24, 2011, 06:33 AM	#146
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	While the search feature is somewhat useful, if you used it a lot, it would pretty much kill the forum and, besides, there's always something new just around the corner, be it a new gun or a new point of view. Now, to Mr. gunnotes, does not any bullet need to reach the vitals to be effective? And what is longer range? With a handgun, anything beyond 25 yards is long range (with apologies to Elmer Keith), not because of the drop in cartridge performance but because of the typical drop in accuracy, although I expect most of you all are much better shots than I am. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

February 24, 2011, 11:08 AM	#148
COSteve Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2009 Posts: 1,344	The 9mm, like the 380 is better than nothing but in truth, the 9mm bullet is on the small size and weight end of effective defensive ammo. As is being proved by the Armed Forces currently, the 9mm is severely limited in it's useful application and there are many, many calls for a larger caliber to replace it. As to gunnotes' mention of a 'heavy' 124grn bullet, please! A 9mm sized bullet (.355" dia.) at that weight is considered a lightweight pistol bullet. 9mm ammo with 147grn bullets are 'heavy' for a 9mm round and 357mag ammo (only .002" dia. larger) come in 158grn and 180grn offerings. Those are considered 'heavy' for that diameter class (.355" - .357" dia). Further, his example with the deer proves nothing other than the shooter didn't have much luck with bullet placement because his initial shots were only 'wounding strikes' which incapacitated the deer but didn't put it down for good. Proven premium defensive semi-auto ammo has much higher muzzle energy than the 9mm produces. The 40s&w and 45acp both produce larger wound channels and tissue disruption and deliver well over 400lb/ft muzzle energy on the way to the vital organs. They also are larger in diameter and considerably heavier increasing their momentum. The 10mm is an even higher class energy category producing 700 to over 800lb/ft muzzle energy. Again, if a 9mm is all you have then it's better than nothing but if you're serious about self defense and are willing to practice to become proficient, then a larger caliber, heavier weight bullet class is a better self defense choice.

February 24, 2011, 11:50 AM	#149
FreakGasolineFight Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2009 Location: Ohio. Posts: 634	Enough for normal SD, sure. Enough for hunting water buffalo, probably not. __________________ "The CZ75 is made of win and longcats."--anonymous youtube comment

February 24, 2011, 03:52 PM	#150
balance Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Posts: 396	But the .40 or .45 probably wouldn't be good for Buffalo either. People in the military are asking for a larger round than the .223 for their rifles too, does that make the .223 weak or innefective? Some people would probably say so, and then tout the .45 as a "manstopper". If you look at the link on post #54, all of the rounds expand to within .12 of an inch of each other, and penetrate to within an inch of each other. Was this test flawed? Will .12 of an inch really make a difference worth trading capacity and controllabiliy for? Will an inch make a difference worth trading capacity and controllabiliy for? In military fmj rounds, will a tenth of an inch really make a difference if both rounds hit the same place? Really? If it will, can someone explain why? Considering the size of the human body, what is .1 of an inch?