what does everyone use in there HD shotgun?

[killoften]

Wooh, Here we go with the "energy dump thing" again/
ADB, On your reasoning, the smaller the pellets the more lethal...? Same weight more spread? 0000 beats 000, and birdshot claims the trophy! Each light projectile is on it's own and "sharing" all the same powder. I'm just gonna come out and say it. There quite honestly is NO DEBATE on the fact slugs are more lethal than shot. Please sombody step in here. If ANYTHING a nay-sayer would want to argu against slugs it's the whole over penatration thing, or not being as guerented to hit the target as much as a spreading lot. Etc, Etc. And even the other thing you mentiond like hitting the pipes in my walls. lol (I'll get to that in a sec.) Not that slugs are less leathal upon impact. I never saw that one commin.
Slugs are soft, very soft, and although they absolutly proably will travel completly through. Them slugs are gonna be extremly deformed and pushing all kinds of hydrostatic presure out the back. That extra energy is fine with me, she's done her job. And needed to make the exit wound (which is a large large bleeding "shape changing" hole you can put a phone book in.
Ever seen a video of a slug hitting a block of balistic gel? The energy finds it way all over the block! ahahah jumps up off the table. When you see a comparison on 00 it's quite a bore in comparison. And for the record somebody mentioned earlier about traveling through a person and then into another room or house. I'm sure upon exit the lead is still several hundred fps give or take a few hundred fps But very deform'd/flat and not going to travel well through other barriers. And again over penatration causing "colateral damage" is just a risk I'm going to have to take for self preservation. No more risk than any person (scared) shooting pistol rounds or shot, possibly only hitting small targets like a biecep and passing right through or missing complelty. It is what it is. That's why that 5th un-written rule needs to be written.

And ADB, no disrespect. I don't mean to single you out but as for the damage I do to my house wiring, or plumbing... ??? I don't know, I don't think that's something I should concider when concerned with defending my life by ending another. I could not care less about those things. In the 1:1,000,000 chance I start a fire, the police should be arriving shortly and it's not exactly like i'll be heading back off to bed anyway.

[inSight-NEO]

For now, I prefer using Federal LE Low-Recoil 00 Buck (9 pellet). I consider this to be a very controllable and reliable load which is capable of exceptionally tight patterns; works for me.

Given my present location, I generally avoid using slugs for HD duty.

And again over penatration causing "colateral damage" is just a risk I'm going to have to take for self preservation.

Not that Im obsessed with overpenetration, but this comment of yours is a bit demonstrative of a cavalier attitude, no? Such damage may be a part of warfare, but for HD...well, this could land one in jail quite quickly (assuming the "collateral damage" is an innocent bystander).

You are right in that "collateral damage" can happen regardless of the load used, but lessening the odds is not a bad thing. Anyway, given the close quarters usually involved in an HD encounter, is a slug really necessary vs. say, 00 Buck?

Now, Im not sure of the exact numbers, but from what I gather the overall velocity/range of slugs vs. 00 Buck renders the use of slugs (for HD) as just too dangerous for most urban environments. In regards to rural use, the slug might be more acceptable based on certain criteria.

Just my 2 cents.

[Willie Lowman]

what does everyone use in there HD shotgun?

Shells, hopefully.

I am in a transitional period, my HD shotgun is in the safe. My HD rifle is loaded with 55gr FMJ

[Edward429451]

I agree with Killoften, well said.

but this comment of yours is a bit demonstrative of a cavalier attitude, no?

I don't think so. We're discussing a very serious situation and while the odds of it happening are low, it behooves us to consider the situation carefully down to the details. Simply discussing it and writing things is not necessarily being cavilier about it.

There's priorities if something goes wrong at home. First things first!

[inSight-NEO]

We're discussing a very serious situation and while the odds of it happening are low, it behooves us to consider the situation carefully down to the details.

Agreed...the possibility of collateral damage, if speaking of human life, (and doing what one can to minimize such damage, while still remaining "prepared" vs. maybe saying "oh well, it is what it is") being one of those "details."

Simply discussing it and writing things is not necessarily being cavilier about it.

Again, agreed. Keep in mind, I was simply referencing one statement made by this individual....not making an "all out" assessment of his overall motives/reasoning as pertaining to HD.

Now, if by "collateral damage" he was referring to structural/property damage rather than the accidental harming/death of an innocent individual, then I agree with his statement 100%. Property means nothing when defending ones life or the lives of loved ones.

My apologies (in retrospect) if I misinterpreted this individuals statement. However, if his intention was to include innocent life within the category of "collateral damage," I must then stand by my original statement. Fair enough?

[Old Grump]

Had a friend up from Georgia last weekend and we had pretty much the same conversation so we did my little demonstration I use for my gun safety classes. Taking into account not many shots in most houses are going to exceed 24' and 10' is more likely I had him fire 3 shells out of my 20 gauge. All 2 3/4" #4 shot. At 25 yards it pretty much covered the 9"x11" sheet of paper with my 50' pistol bullseye target on it and the shot was centered in the bull. At 35' there were a few shots scattered but most of them were in a hole about 1 3/4" in diameter, at 10' there was a 1" diameter hole blown through a 2"x4".

People aren't paper, or milk jugs full of water or liter bottles of ice but they are flesh and blood and every shoot is different but at my arbitrary distance of 24' my shot cup is just falling away from the shot string. Those little pellets may not blow his head off but it will sure enough ruin his day.

I do not want to see any more body bags but if an intruder gets in my house and threatens my family he is going to be unwell even if I accidentally shoot him with #6 or 7 1/2 shot but #4 was bought specifically for turkey hunting and home defense. I shoot it a lot and have confidence in it. I didn't necessarily convince my buddy to give up his 3" 12 gauge but he understands my point of view now. There are other people in my house besides me and I don't want buck or slugs going through a wall into their bedrooms after going through a boogerman and #4 makes me confident that won't happen.

[killoften]

Gents,
Real quick here, glad to see this thread pickin up.

Let me clarify, I might have been on a "roll" and worded myself a little cavilier
By "colateral damage" I meant ANYTHING the round strikes beyond my target. Definition ain't it?
Good God! I wouldn't want for a second to harm any peacful American. ESPECIALLY a neighbor of mine and quite possibly a child sleeping. Nothing could be more unthinkable. But yes, with the discharge of a firearm, ANYWHERE not on a "range" it's a posability. For ALL of us. And that is somethin we all need to think seriously about. I'm not goin down in this thread bein the guy that endangers his strangers without a care or second thought.
It is my 'edacated assumtion' that the risk is low, and for reasons I've coverd pretty exstensivly. Therefore, I refuse to choose a less effective weapon for my and my familys right to life. Espcecially since all those other "less effective" options make pretty efective, "people sleeping in their bed killers."
Man, that sounds bad, I can't believe I just typed that. lol But all kiding aside, it's true! And for reasons I've coverd exstensivly.
If it makes you feel any better I believe using a pump action, sholder fired weapon, with a high recoil and limited rounds, keeps me focused on making each shot count. (especially having to mannualy pump each round) And even under duress I'm not just "spraying and praying"
Which is more than can be said for a lot of people rockin high capacity AR's with 30rd mags, or scared men squeezing on a pistol. Not to say that's how all people respond but... you know, you know.

I was just using that military word (colateral damge) becuase it IS something we take seriously. Especialy with exploding rounds, or multiple burts of .50cal ammunition. And that's to protect other nations peacful inhabatants!

All an all, no offence takin. Enjoy the read guys.

P.S. Somebody PLEASE tell me how to "Quote:" replys???!!!!

[LanceOregon]

OO Buckshot is way, way overkill. There is no need at all to go with such large shot.

It is much better and more effective to use smaller shot that gives you many more hits on the target. The trauma produced will be far greater, and your odds of hitting vital areas much higher.

I used to have Federal Premium 2 3/4 inch Magnum Copper plated BB shot in my gun. And that load is still available on the market for anyone to use. However, I have since replaced that with Federal's Premium 2 3/4 inch Magnum Copper plated #4 Buckshot. I still have over 100 rounds of that left, and it is what is in my gun now.

Federal sadly decided last year to take this load off the commercial market, so it unfortunately is now extremely difficult for civilians to get hold of. It is now only being sold to Law Enforcement as part of their LE product lineup, having been deemed too deadly to continue to sell to the general public.

I was lucky to grab a bunch of boxes from the final commercial inventory I could locate. It fires 34 .24 caliber copper plated #4 buckshot at 1,250 fps, and is absolutely devastating in its impact.

With 8 +1 shells in my shotgun, that is a heck of a lot of firepower. 9 x 34 = 306 buckshot






My Magnum BB load I used to have in my shotgun has 72 .18 caliber copper plated BB's in it. Multiple that by 9, and you get 648 projectiles!!

Federal still has commercial civilian #4 Buckshot loads available. The only difference is that the buckshot is plain lead, and is not copper plated. You can get 2/34 inch 12 gauge shells with either 27 #4 Buckshot going 1,325 fps, or a magnum version with 34 #4 Buckshot at 1.250 fps, which is identical ballistics to this Premium load I have.

Here is the Federal ammo web page for info on their civilian #4 Buckshot loads:

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/buckshot.aspx


And here is a web page on Federal's Law Enforcement website with info about this Premium load that I have in my shotgun:

http://le.atk.com/general/federalpro...rembcksht.aspx



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[LanceOregon]

Here is a photo of the two Federal shotshells that I referred to above:



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[ADB]

ADB, On your reasoning, the smaller the pellets the more lethal...? Same weight more spread? 0000 beats 000, and birdshot claims the trophy!

Actually, at home defense ranges birdshot will pretty much turn your target into sausage. Smaller projectiles lose speed faster than larger ones, but over the short distances you'd be talking about in home defense, that's not much of a factor.

ANY kind of shell coming out of a 12 gauge, at under 20 feet, is going to be fatal and it's probably going to be fatal in a really spectacular way. The only question is range to target and penetration. It doesn't matter if you're ten feet away versus twenty, or whether the target is wearing a thick coat.

Slugs will penetrate ballistic gelatin to a depth of up to 35 inches, which is far in excess of what's necessary. Think about the depth of somebody's chest.

I'm not trying to talk you out of your preference, I'm simply saying that in terms of taking out a target, it certainly shouldn't be considered necessary to use slugs for home defense.

[Cumminspwrd02]

In my 870 I have 7 shots of 2 3/4 00 buck w/ 5 extra in the holder on the stock. If that doesn't take the BG down then i have 6 shots in a colt cobra .38 special.

[Edward429451]

My apologies (in retrospect) if I misinterpreted this individuals statement. However, if his intention was to include innocent life within the category of "collateral damage," I must then stand by my original statement. Fair enough?

Fair enough.
The discussion was HD so any collateral damage to innocent life would most likely be family, so I took it as a given that one would not speak of his family like that, and that he meant the structure!

[Dave McC]

Killoften, the databases show that slugs and 00 have the same percentage of one shot stops.

99%.

00 does penetrate less. Most folks think that's good.

I've shot enough deer with slugs to know they can leave the target and wreak harm elsewhere.

As for birdshot, it works as well when used close enough. That seems to be less than ten yards.

Close enough with 00 is more like 25 yards.

Definition: Close enough means all pellets in the target. For HD use, about 15" max.

The trouble is, we cannot predict the distance of the next firefight. If the action moves outside, it may not be feasible to empty the magazine and recharge with 00 or slugs.

Mostly 00 is used here, but one shotgun posted where shot opps will be close and parallel to the ground AT ground level has 4 buck in it. Any likely crisis management with that one will see the shot still in the cup at terminus.

There's no "One Size Fits All" approach to ammo selection. Proper selection takes time, effort, thought and a patterning board.

Dismounting from pulpit....

[Kmar40]

Actually, at home defense ranges birdshot will pretty much turn your target into sausage.

[tater134]

I keep my Norinco 97 loaded with Remington 2-3/4 00 Buck

[el_gringo]

In the bedroom my 870 is loaded with 3" 00 buckshot. The 870 kept outside the bedroom is loaded with 3 1/2" 00 buckshot.

I'm young, I live alone in not the best area (not the worst either), and I have good recoil pads.

[hogdogs]

ACTUALLY If you cannot guarantee 9 inches of penetration in the human body, you can keep it! I prefer to look for 12 inches! I feel I am pushing my luck by expecting my #3 buck from my 20 gauge to do the job so I have practiced "TAP PUMP TAP" with a slight rise of the muzzle on the second round from the first.
That ought to do the trick for all but the tuffest thug. For him I have the .30-30 in the closet with 6 170 grainers.
Brent

[inSight-NEO]

Therefore, I refuse to choose a less effective weapon for my and my familys right to life.

I agree...to a point. What I mean is, in using OO Buck (in my case, Im speaking of the lower velocity "low recoil" version) vs. using slugs, you really arent losing much in terms of "stopping power," IMHO. However, what you are giving up is unnecessary penetration, even if the BG is wearing thick winter gear. This is why I use low-recoil 00 Buck. Now, is it penetrative? Sure. But, given its more limited velocity ratings vs. "standard" 00 Buck or slugs, Id say it provides a nice mix of stopping power + lower penetration, without going to birdshot.

So sure, using an "effective" weapon is desireable, but why not try to maintain maximum stopping power while somewhat limiting overpenetration? Its kinda like comparing the full-house 125 grain JHP .357 Magnum load to the .45 ACP JHP load. Both are about equal in terms of stopping power, but one is certainly more penetrative than the other. In this case, its the .45 ACP for me.

Just something to think about.

[killoften]

Guy,
Not to play "what if's" but... Are we so sure he's going to be standing chest to chest with you? What if he's got something in my house to use for cover?
A couch, refridgearator, beating down an internal door like in the safe room, confronting me from a wall corner, his BP vest, behind the kitchen counter, etc,etc, the list could go on. And so, I don't know, these things may or may not ever happen in our entire lives and we're susposed to guess how it's gonna go down? Obvisly it's likly to be a very caotic event with all kinds of hollywood jumps and dives. (Perhaps:rolleyes Does your bird shot penatrate these things, and then, "pretty much turn him to sausage?" lol
We HAVE, MUST, assume all the possible worst. Even though it's highly unlikly to ever match your imagination I'm still ready for whatever. And by whatever I mean whatever he choices to use for cover. Keep that in mind when you tell me you prefer shot and over penatration is the enemy.
And for all you bird shot guys... How come your not loading your own shells with sand? Or flour? Same weight more "energy dump"

[inSight-NEO]

Not to play "what if's" but... Are we so sure he's going to be standing chest to chest with you? What if he's got something in my house to use for cover?
A couch, refridgearator, beating down an internal door like in the safe room, confronting me from a wall corner, his BP vest, behind the kitchen counter, etc,etc, the list could go on. And so, I don't know, these things may or may not ever happen in our entire lives and we're susposed to guess how it's gonna go down? Obvisly it's likly to be a very caotic event with all kinds of hollywood jumps and dives. (Perhaps:rolleyes Does your bird shot penatrate these things, and then, "pretty much turn him to sausage?" lol

Ok...first off, Im not a huge fan of birdshot for primary HD use..lets get that right out of the way. Second, out of the 6 or so scenarios you listed, 00 Buck could deal with at least 4 of them (the fourth being the safe room door...let them beat it down; when they enter...well, you get the idea). Besides, you should be behind cover as well....and waiting. But, then again, Im not the "search and destroy" type. Rather, Im more of the "sit, wait and surprise" type.

Either way, it sounds to me like you need to skip the SG alltogether and get either the S&W Model 500 revolver or a high power rifle if conquering any and all barriers is of utmost importance.

For now, however, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with that.

[LanceOregon]

? What if he's got something in my house to use for cover?

A couch, refridgearator, beating down an internal door like in the safe room, confronting me from a wall corner, his BP vest, behind the kitchen counter, etc,etc, the list could go on.

No, that is not at all true. Your list could not possibly go on, as it itself is ridiculously illogical.

The home invader is going to hide behind your kitchen refrigerator? How on earth is he possibly going to do that??? Do you keep all of your valuables in your refrigerator? That scenario is improbable in the extreme.

And he is going to be wearing a Bullet Proof vest? My goodness, this is getting more outlandish yet. No Buckshot load is going to penetrate a good BP vest, anyway. So what is your point of even mentioning that?


--

[ADB]

killoften, don't be ridiculous with your sand and flour.

Yes, slugs would mean you could shoot through furniture, but why stop there? What if the bad guy is wearing a vest? Clearly, we shouldn't use anything shy of a .50 BMG round for home defense.

However, the fact is that even in the already unlikely scenario of a home defense situation, 99% of us are only ever going to fire on someone who is in the clear and presenting a threat to us.

[Old Grump]

Unless he pulls the couch away from the wall or the refrigerator or freezer out from the built in cubby holes they are in He won't be hiding behind them in my house and I have an open floor plan from my kitchen door to the back of the house where my brothers bedroom is. My bedroom is in the middle of the house and the longest reasonable shot I can expect is 24' or 8 yards.

My choice of #4 shot wasn't made on a whim but on big enough to do the job and light enough to not be tearing up my house and endangering anybody in the house I don't want shot. Every situation is different, most houses and furniture placement will be different but not substantially from mine. You may have a 40' shot or at the most a 15' shot, you may be the only person there and your windows are bullet proof and your walls made out of hardened concrete so your neighbors aren't a factor.

There is no one rule covers all situations and I won't flame somebody for using 3 1/2" 10 gauge with 00 buck or a 410 loaded in a Judge if that's what they have. A 22 rifle in the hands of a marksman is a deadly weapon, but to flame somebody because he isn't shooting what you consider optimum or at least adequate shows either lack of maturity or real life experience.

Some of us have been there done that and we don't need a keyboard Kommando parroting the latest hot load or hot bullet from the latest issue of 'Killer Gremlins on the Warpath' magazine.

Ok young ones, continue flaming and ranting this dinosaur is enjoying your testosterone based chest thumping.

[RJM]

Why use a shotgun loaded with slugs if you could use a rifle loaded with thirty rounds of 7.62x39 or twenty rounds of .308? If you don't really care about over penetration, why would you handicap youself with a shotgun shooting a single slug and have a smaller capacity? Doesn't make much sense to me.

[krazykelley]

9 rounds of #4 2 3/4" buckshot in my Franchi SAS 12. Sometimes the Franchi is complemented by a S&W, Charter Arms, or Tanfoglio in the nightstand or the Vector propped up next to it on the wall.