Now, that's a gun! ... trivia for historians and other gun nuts ...

LetsFetz · August 14, 2002, 09:16 AM

How's your historic knowledge? ... what gun is that and what was it used for? ... it has quite a unique name and, all but one of the pics below are illustrations of American artists, who - funny enough - never saw the gun ... in fact few people ever saw it and after the war it was destroyed and any proof eliminated ... the specs and performance data of that monster are mind blowing ... so was the method through which the necessary data were experimentally determined ...

Interesting facts and hint:
Caliber: diameter from 21cm to 23,5 - length from 95cm to 111cm - weight from 200 to 230lbs ... the "from - to" is significant, as the "from" applies to the first and the "to" apllies to the last of 65 slugs, which was the maximum of shots that could be fired ... after that the barrel was exchanged and a new barrel started with a 21cm/95cm/200lbs slug ... the reason for this procedure is obvious, or not?

cheers and beers
LetsFetz

SDC · August 14, 2002, 09:27 AM

Isn't this the "Paris Kanone" that the Germans used to bombard Paris during WW1?

Tamara · August 14, 2002, 09:33 AM

Yup, that's the Paris Gun; sometimes erroneously called "Big Bertha" (which was actually a nickname for Krupp's 42-cm seige howitzers which were used so successfully to smash the forts at Leige).

**4V50 Gary** · August 14, 2002, 10:49 AM

all this to stop the neighbor's dog?

pdmoderator · August 14, 2002, 10:51 AM

aka "Long Max?"

If that is the gun, then the Germans hid it after WWI by sticking it up a chimney.

For a good time, click:

http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/gunnched.htm

- pdmoderator

Jim V · August 14, 2002, 10:53 AM

When the first shells hit, the people in Paris thought they were being bombed from German lighter than air ships because they did not hear the gun's firing. Or so the story goes.

Wasn't the crew need to man the gun, something around 1,000? I can't remember but it was huge.

Johnny Guest · August 14, 2002, 11:23 AM

Quote:

... the reason for this procedure is obvious, or not?

Didn't it have to do with barrel errosion? With each round, the bore diameter increased by tiny increments, and the shells were numbered to take into account this effect. Best I recall . . .

Best,
Johnny Guest

LetsFetz · August 14, 2002, 12:56 PM

... not bad ... not bad ...

... this is the book from which I'm drawing all these wonderful stories and facts ... apart from the difficult to read old-german letters, it's a real treat ... we are talking about 1934 propaganda type of power monologues, mocking the enemy where possible ... old Adi himself could have been the author :=) ... hilarious at places - mind boggling at others, especially when considering the demand put into the builders and scientists and the accurate results they eventually presented ...

... talking about results ... I was in tears, when I read about the first tries with another long range cannon ... the venue was the "Schießplatz" of Meppen, the cannon a 35.5cm caliber monster, calculated and calibrated to shoot exactly 20km at an angle of 45 degrees ... the shot was fired and it also impacted ... however not where they had it intended to impact ... kinda like in the "There's something about Mary" movie - "where did it go?" ...

ROFLMAO

... only later via the "Wehrmachts Alarmnachrichten" they learned, that they had shot across the border into the neighboring Holland ... ooops - sorry ... the Dutch obviously didn't have a clue what had hit them ... the shot went exactly twice as far as calculated ... by accident they had learned about the principles of ballistics for a projectile entering the stratosphere ... through that they had also learned that an angle at or around 50 degrees was ideal for the "Paris Kanone" ... the distance there was 128km and the granade spent 2 of the 3.5 minutes airborne time within the stratosphere reaching tops at 40km ...

... this is an impression of what the French THOUGHT, the cannon looks like:

... and this is where they were hit throughout a campaign that went on for months and utilised three of those Leviathans of a gun:

... French scientists fought battles over the caliber of that mysterious German "Wunderwaffe" ... "21cm! no, 22.5cm! no, 23cm!" ... well, actually they were all correct, because every shot out of 65 utilised another caliber size ... the reason being, that with every shot the barrel expanded by the fraction of a milimeter ... not only that, but the whip-slashing effect of the detonation also bent the barrel ... this was another one of the problems the scientists were presented with - and failure was not acceptable ... "Wir dulden keinen Widerspruch!!!" :=) ... supporting the barrel with rods etc. was out of the question, because once bent - that's it ... sooo, typical German they came up with an easy one ... they said: "let the barrel bend, if it wants to - we'll bend it back before the next shot" ... chains, claws and a winch type of "Flaschenzug" (dunno the English word for it) was used, with which they bent the barrel right back after every shot ... the chord line twisted by 5000 atmospheres of pressure was re-alined by just another simple device ... they attached a screen with a cross to the muzzle and a conventional scope at the other end of the 34 metre barrel ... a "Peiler" eyeballed and shouted commands to the guys at the winches ... they did that between every two shots and thus successfully fired more than 300 accurately placed slugs into Paris ...

... other and many more measures were taken, to grant accuracy of each and every single shot, such as powder being stored at exactly 15 degrees Celcius etc. etc. ...

well guessed guys and gals ... pdmoderator's link (thanks) gives it away in a nut shell, although some of the data are not quite correct ...

... any questions? ... I got the book infront of me ... love it ...

... and please forgive us our typos and grammar ...

Long Path · August 14, 2002, 01:14 PM

This stuff always struck me as odd. No real target could be hit with it, except "Paris." Only really useful as a psychological weapon of terror.

**Mike Irwin** · August 14, 2002, 02:42 PM

No real target could be hit with it, except "Paris."

Not much different in that sense than the later V-1 and V-2.

The V-2, in particular, was supposed to be accurate to within a half mile, when most of the time it was off target by a factor of 10 or more.

LetsFetz · August 14, 2002, 05:38 PM

Blackhawk - can you see the images?

problem solved?

Tamara · August 14, 2002, 05:57 PM

Have you tried right-clicking on them and selecting "show picture"?

Hutch · August 15, 2002, 10:08 AM

While we're on the subject of Teutonic uber-cannon (sorry, I don't know how to generate the um-laut), what genius decided that this was a good idea? I'm thinking of the railway guns used in the Crimean campaign in WWII. For the amount of foundry time, ammunition fabrication, the laying of specialized track, a regiment to man and guard it, yadda yadda, the dumbasses coulda built a gazillion (maybe more!) field pieces of standard pattern, that actually had the agility and deployability to do them some good ON THE BATTLEFIELD, which is where the issues are decided.

Lavan · August 15, 2002, 10:20 AM

Johnny Guest · August 16, 2002, 05:33 PM

"Did they ever make a holster?"

Sure they did. All fulla water tight, dust proof flaps, straps, brads, mag pouches, extra pockets, proof marks, and I dunno what all. Superb execution.

Oh, wait - - -Those were just for pistols! I guess you were asking about one for the Paris Gun?

Best,
Johnny Guest

Bruce626 · August 16, 2002, 10:45 PM

Mike sez...

Quote:

No real target could be hit with it, except "Paris."

Back in the olden days, hitting Paris from afar was a pretty cool accomplishment... and the V2's later also. In today's modern world I think we forget how mindboggling some of these WWII things really were.

Historians will undoubtedly help here, but prior to this Paris gun, ranges were basically enveloped by battleship naval guns (the big guys) and howitzers (20 miles?).

Think of the WWII bomber movies with the guys looking thru sights and yelling "IP" vs today's smart bombs... they were primitive, but state of the art at their time.

--Bruce.

**4V50 Gary** · August 17, 2002, 10:23 AM

Wasn't that 80 c.m. gun the Gustav? It was so wide that rode on twin railroad tracks. The gun was designed as a "bunker buster" to penetrate into fortresses embedded deep within bedrock and covered with steel reinforced rebar. While it worked effectively at the Siege of Sebastapol (WW II and not the Crimean War

) you do raise an issue of cost effective.

johnr · August 18, 2002, 05:24 AM

I've always been fond of Atomic Annie:

Bear Flare · August 19, 2002, 04:14 PM

Ladies and Gents:

"Flaschenzug" is a block-and-tackle pulley system.

Bear Flare

LetsFetz · August 19, 2002, 05:36 PM

... thanx Bear

...

August 14, 2002, 09:16 AM	#1
LetsFetz Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2002 Location: Africa Posts: 341	Now, that's a gun! ... trivia for historians and other gun nuts ... How's your historic knowledge? ... what gun is that and what was it used for? ... it has quite a unique name and, all but one of the pics below are illustrations of American artists, who - funny enough - never saw the gun ... in fact few people ever saw it and after the war it was destroyed and any proof eliminated ... the specs and performance data of that monster are mind blowing ... so was the method through which the necessary data were experimentally determined ... Interesting facts and hint: Caliber: diameter from 21cm to 23,5 - length from 95cm to 111cm - weight from 200 to 230lbs ... the "from - to" is significant, as the "from" applies to the first and the "to" apllies to the last of 65 slugs, which was the maximum of shots that could be fired ... after that the barrel was exchanged and a new barrel started with a 21cm/95cm/200lbs slug ... the reason for this procedure is obvious, or not? cheers and beers LetsFetz __________________ Young man, was that a landing? - or where we shot down!?

August 14, 2002, 09:27 AM	#2
SDC Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: People's Republic of Kanada Posts: 1,652	Isn't this the "Paris Kanone" that the Germans used to bombard Paris during WW1? __________________ Gun control in Canada: making the streets safer for rapists, muggers, and other violent criminals since 1936.

August 14, 2002, 09:33 AM	#3
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	Yup, that's the Paris Gun; sometimes erroneously called "Big Bertha" (which was actually a nickname for Krupp's 42-cm seige howitzers which were used so successfully to smash the forts at Leige). __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

August 14, 2002, 10:49 AM	#4
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,843	all this to stop the neighbor's dog? __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

August 14, 2002, 10:51 AM	#5
pdmoderator Registration in progress Join Date: November 6, 2001 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,202	aka "Long Max?" If that is the gun, then the Germans hid it after WWI by sticking it up a chimney. For a good time, click: http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/gunnched.htm - pdmoderator __________________ Give up no state. Give up no ground.

August 14, 2002, 10:53 AM	#6
Jim V Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 1999 Location: SE Michigan - USA Posts: 4,038	When the first shells hit, the people in Paris thought they were being bombed from German lighter than air ships because they did not hear the gun's firing. Or so the story goes. Wasn't the crew need to man the gun, something around 1,000? I can't remember but it was huge. __________________ *MOLON LABE* If it ain't metal, single stack & single action, it ain't a 1911 no matter what it looks like. 1911 Forum THE TUBBY CURMUDGEON

August 14, 2002, 12:56 PM	#8
LetsFetz Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2002 Location: Africa Posts: 341	... not bad ... not bad ... ... this is the book from which I'm drawing all these wonderful stories and facts ... apart from the difficult to read old-german letters, it's a real treat ... we are talking about 1934 propaganda type of power monologues, mocking the enemy where possible ... old Adi himself could have been the author :=) ... hilarious at places - mind boggling at others, especially when considering the demand put into the builders and scientists and the accurate results they eventually presented ... ... talking about results ... I was in tears, when I read about the first tries with another long range cannon ... the venue was the "Schießplatz" of Meppen, the cannon a 35.5cm caliber monster, calculated and calibrated to shoot exactly 20km at an angle of 45 degrees ... the shot was fired and it also impacted ... however not where they had it intended to impact ... kinda like in the "There's something about Mary" movie - "where did it go?" ... ROFLMAO ... only later via the "Wehrmachts Alarmnachrichten" they learned, that they had shot across the border into the neighboring Holland ... ooops - sorry ... the Dutch obviously didn't have a clue what had hit them ... the shot went exactly twice as far as calculated ... by accident they had learned about the principles of ballistics for a projectile entering the stratosphere ... through that they had also learned that an angle at or around 50 degrees was ideal for the "Paris Kanone" ... the distance there was 128km and the granade spent 2 of the 3.5 minutes airborne time within the stratosphere reaching tops at 40km ... ... this is an impression of what the French THOUGHT, the cannon looks like: ... and this is where they were hit throughout a campaign that went on for months and utilised three of those Leviathans of a gun: ... French scientists fought battles over the caliber of that mysterious German "Wunderwaffe" ... "21cm! no, 22.5cm! no, 23cm!" ... well, actually they were all correct, because every shot out of 65 utilised another caliber size ... the reason being, that with every shot the barrel expanded by the fraction of a milimeter ... not only that, but the whip-slashing effect of the detonation also bent the barrel ... this was another one of the problems the scientists were presented with - and failure was not acceptable ... "Wir dulden keinen Widerspruch!!!" :=) ... supporting the barrel with rods etc. was out of the question, because once bent - that's it ... sooo, typical German they came up with an easy one ... they said: "let the barrel bend, if it wants to - we'll bend it back before the next shot" ... chains, claws and a winch type of "Flaschenzug" (dunno the English word for it) was used, with which they bent the barrel right back after every shot ... the chord line twisted by 5000 atmospheres of pressure was re-alined by just another simple device ... they attached a screen with a cross to the muzzle and a conventional scope at the other end of the 34 metre barrel ... a "Peiler" eyeballed and shouted commands to the guys at the winches ... they did that between every two shots and thus successfully fired more than 300 accurately placed slugs into Paris ... ... other and many more measures were taken, to grant accuracy of each and every single shot, such as powder being stored at exactly 15 degrees Celcius etc. etc. ... well guessed guys and gals ... pdmoderator's link (thanks) gives it away in a nut shell, although some of the data are not quite correct ... ... any questions? ... I got the book infront of me ... love it ... ... and please forgive us our typos and grammar ... __________________ Young man, was that a landing? - or where we shot down!?

August 14, 2002, 01:14 PM	#9
Long Path Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: N. Texas Posts: 5,899	This stuff always struck me as odd. No real target could be hit with it, except "Paris." Only really useful as a psychological weapon of terror. __________________ "Welcome to The Firing Line, a virtual community dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership."T.F.L. Policy Page Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap? ____________

August 14, 2002, 02:42 PM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	No real target could be hit with it, except "Paris." Not much different in that sense than the later V-1 and V-2. The V-2, in particular, was supposed to be accurate to within a half mile, when most of the time it was off target by a factor of 10 or more. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 14, 2002, 05:38 PM	#11
LetsFetz Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2002 Location: Africa Posts: 341	Blackhawk - can you see the images? problem solved? __________________ Young man, was that a landing? - or where we shot down!?

August 14, 2002, 05:57 PM	#12
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	Blackhawk, Have you tried right-clicking on them and selecting "show picture"? __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

August 15, 2002, 10:08 AM	#13
Hutch Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,124	While we're on the subject of Teutonic uber-cannon (sorry, I don't know how to generate the um-laut), what genius decided that this was a good idea? I'm thinking of the railway guns used in the Crimean campaign in WWII. For the amount of foundry time, ammunition fabrication, the laying of specialized track, a regiment to man and guard it, yadda yadda, the dumbasses coulda built a gazillion (maybe more!) field pieces of standard pattern, that actually had the agility and deployability to do them some good ON THE BATTLEFIELD, which is where the issues are decided. __________________ "First, the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right -- subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility" -- L. Neil Smith ' I have an [in]alienable right to bear arms. I will exercise my own judgement in their use and accept responsibilty for the consequences' - Oakleaf

August 15, 2002, 10:20 AM	#14
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: California Posts: 2,716	Did they ever make a holster?

August 16, 2002, 05:33 PM	#15
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	Lavan: "Did they ever make a holster?" Sure they did. All fulla water tight, dust proof flaps, straps, brads, mag pouches, extra pockets, proof marks, and I dunno what all. Superb execution. Oh, wait - - -Those were just for pistols! I guess you were asking about one for the Paris Gun? Best, Johnny Guest

August 17, 2002, 10:23 AM	#17
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,843	Wasn't that 80 c.m. gun the Gustav? It was so wide that rode on twin railroad tracks. The gun was designed as a "bunker buster" to penetrate into fortresses embedded deep within bedrock and covered with steel reinforced rebar. While it worked effectively at the Siege of Sebastapol (WW II and not the Crimean War ) you do raise an issue of cost effective. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

August 18, 2002, 05:24 AM	#18
johnr Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2000 Posts: 695	I've always been fond of Atomic Annie:

August 19, 2002, 04:14 PM	#19
Bear Flare Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2000 Posts: 189	Ladies and Gents: "Flaschenzug" is a block-and-tackle pulley system. Bear Flare

August 19, 2002, 05:36 PM	#20
LetsFetz Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2002 Location: Africa Posts: 341	... thanx Bear ... __________________ Young man, was that a landing? - or where we shot down!?