+p Rant

[TX_RGR]

And "some" argue in generalities without any bothering with things like facts. If you've found a lame +p rated load out there and thats justification for you to eschew the whole lot of them, then that's your problem. "I heard of a bad +p load once, therefore +p loads arent as good" Yeah okay. Finding people to agree with you will be considerably more difficult than making blanket nonsensical statements.

For the earth-bound, I say again, maximize your effectiveness. It's not a guarantee to begin with. The biggest, fastest you can effectively handle. This is not an indictment of the insecure, the misinformed, the paranoid or the woefully undergunned. It's just good advice.

[Playboypenguin]

Originally Posted by Gazpacho

Many people choose 38sp over 357 mag because they simply can't adequately control a 357 mag

I am 6'1 and 220lbs and (thanks to years of hand building custom furniture) have a grip like a vise. I can handle a .357mag with little effort. I choose the .38 rounds because I would prefer to hit only what I am shooting at and not what is behind it also. I think people that want to carry .44mags as a self defense gun had better be ready to accept the ramifications of any collateral damage they cause if they ever have to defend themselves.

[Rivers]

Russ: What possible interest could you have or business is it of yours what the rest of us choose to shoot? You need to find more important subjects to "get off" your chest!

[Mannlicher]

two things,
one, +p does not mean 'warp 7'. Frankly, its no big deal.
second, why would anyone care what other folks put in their guns? Weird.

[OBIWAN]

You can't handle the truth (spoken in Jack Nicholson's voice)

9 mm Win 147 gr JHP Ranger Talon (RA9T), lot # SV, S&W 5906, Gel Calib = 9.5 cm @ 576 f/s
bare gel: vel = 942 f/s , pen = 14.8”, RD = 0.62”, RL = 0.48”, RW = 148.8 gr
4 Layer denim: vel = 953 f/s , pen = 16.7”, RD = 0.58”, RL = 0.53”, RW = 148.5 gr

--------------------------------------

9 mm Win 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA), lot # TA82, S&W 5906, Gel Calib = 8.7 cm @ 590 f/s
bare gel: vel = 1320 f/s , pen = 12.9”, RD = 0.52”, RL = 0.36”, RW = 121.1 gr
4 Layer denim: vel = 1324 f/s , pen = 12.7”, RD = 0.62”, RL = 0.38”, RW = 123.9 gr

[Doug.38PR]

Most people shoot standard load at the range and want to be able, if they can, to shoot +P as a defense load. And why shouldn't they? Aside from if the gun can't handle it, why shouldn't you use +P? After all, the criminals aren't going to cut you any slack.

The .38 is a wimpy round in standard pressure.

So I guess if I loaded my gun with standard .38 special, pointed it at you and pulled the trigger you would just laugh and say "What? Are you trying to kill me or something?".

[shield20]

Let's look at why +p & +p+ was invented in the 1st place...to make up for the inadequacies of standard rounds such as the 9mm that weren't getting it done. If you can get the same effects these days with standard ammo as you can with +p, then there wouldn't be a need. If adding those extra 100fps can get you more expansion, more reliable expansion, extra/better penetration, more energy delivered on target, or some other benefit - and you can shoot it well - then it is worth it. Big and fast is good, and if the round is designed properly - big(ger) and faster is better.

As someone said already - choosing the best ammo is 1 of the few things we can control about a deadly force encounter, you might as well go with the best edge you can get.

[Playboypenguin]

What were the .38's and 9mm's "not getting done"? I think they are perfect for the use they were made. I see it more as a marketing stategy to peope that always think "bigger is better". If .38's don't do it for you buy a .357mag. They are almost always he same price or very close.

[cje1980]

I see it more as a marketing stategy to peope that always think "bigger is better". If .38's don't do it for you buy a .357mag.

Are you trying to imply that there is absolutely no difference in terminal effectiveness between 38Spl and 357Mag? The 357Mag is a very consistent performer in both expansion and penetration. The same can not be said of the 38Spl. No matter how much people rave about how modern bullet design closes the gap, the 357Mag simply performs more consistently than the 38Spl and 9mm for that matter. The majority of 9mm and 38Spl JHPs still penetrate much more and expand less after passing through clothing. Almost all of the 357Mag loads that I've seen tested actually expand more and typically penetrate less after passing through clothing. The fighting capability of the 357Mag has never been doubted by police forces, while the 9mm and 38Spl certainly have.

I can handle a .357mag with little effort. I choose the .38 rounds because I would prefer to hit only what I am shooting at and not what is behind it also.

I've never understood this myth of the 357Mag over-penetrating. I've seen many more 9mm loads that expand poorly and penetrate over 18-20" after heavy clothing than I have 357Mag. On the ammunition performance page at www.firearmstactical.com, only one load penetrated more than 16" while the 9mm has at least 10 loads that penetrated over 18" some even penetrated 22" Many people who use the 38Spl instead of the 357MAg use the 158gr. +p LHP which pentrates just as much as just about any 357Mag load. A 125gr. 357 load typically only penetrates 10"-11" and never penetrates any more due to its violent expansion characteristics.

[shooter429]

This is about insecurity [QUOTE]For the earth-bound, I say again, maximize your effectiveness. It's not a guarantee to begin with. The biggest, fastest you can effectively handle. This is not an indictment of the insecure, the misinformed, the paranoid or the woefully undergunned. It's just good advice.

Why do people feel the need to misinterpret or simply twist an argument just to knock down a straw man?

I have never suggested someone use a gun that they cannot shoot well. I never claimed that caliber made up for poor marksmanship. To the contrary; I think marksmanship is more important than caliber/bullet choice so long as you have enough power to get to the vitals. But this assumes you must choose one over the other if you.

My point is that it is simply prudent to use the best, most powerful gun/ammo that you can shoot well. For most serious shooters that is not going to be a 125 Grain .357 Cal. Bullet at 750 fps. Is that caliber better than nothing? Yes. I submit to you that there are more effective choices, however.

And why make hasty generalizations? Like “lots of cops carry .38 WC… because they are easier to control…?”

The first duty gun I was ever issued was a blued .38 Spl K-frame S&W with a 4 –inch tube. I carried that with lead bullets, because that was my only choice I had (at that time with that agency). I shot it well. In fact, I always had top scores. So what! The 870, loaded with buckshot, that set on my right side in the center of my patrol car was what I wanted if I really needed a gun and power. Would anyone take a .38 or 9mm over a 12 Ga.?

There was no need to worry about it because I had no other choice. That did not mean that there weren’t better sidearms or calibers available to others. And that did not mean I preferred that caliber and gun for controllability or any other tactical reason. I could shoot a .45acp Colt at least as well as the .38. I would have much preferred a .45. That being said, I carried .38 revolvers. I lived, breathed, and slept S&W .38s. I never had to find out if that .38 was good enough, and I thank God for that. Now I have a choice and I carry the very best, because I can.

Nobody in his or her right mind would choose to take a handgun to a gunfight. However, most people also know that when you step out of that car, your sidearm is what you are going to be using. How many Officers carry around their 870s? Their ARs? So, the handgun is what you are going to be using, and it is already less than ideal to begin with. If you have a choice, why would you handicap yourself further by using a .38 or a 9mm instead of the +P+ or, better yet, stepping up to a more powerful caliber that you can control just as well? If you like your .38/9 fine. If you are prescribed guns and ammo, as I used to be, fine. Some departments still have standard issue sidearm and ammo and some will allow other models so long as the officer can qualify with it. All I am saying is when given a choice, I choose to carry bigger guns because all else being equal they have enough extra diameter and energy to penetrate deeply and expand to huge diameters of close to an inch.. We can look at the Army or the FBI or any number of authors and entities and find that the best big-bores and magnums or +p+ LEO Rds are better than the rest.

Now, as to the comments that imply the .44 Mag is too much gun or the like... I am an experienced shooter that has spend a huge amount of time in training and experimentation/load development. I can assure you that my defensive loads will expand to a greater diameter and penetrate less than your standard 9mm. And I can hit the target with deadly accuracy. On the other hand, I can also penetrate things like car doors or other intermediaries and still hit the bad guy. Your .38 will not get that job done.

Not to mention the psychological effect of staring down nearly half an inch of muzzle and all those huge HPs sitting in the chamber ready to stike like cobras in a nest.

Shooter429

[maas]

ive used p+ ammo for years but i just called them reloads

[Hal]

Russ,
Why is that people go out and buy a revolver or any gun and the first thing they post on here wanting to shoot +p?

That doesn't happen as often as it seems. Most of the time that question is asked it's either because:
a.) Someone picked up a real bargain. They aren't sure exactly what it they have, only that they've seen it mentioned and the reports were generally favorable. If they find out they can't use +P, they usually just shrug it off and content themselves with the fact that they can't.
b.) Someone fell into a gun - as in they had it given to them. Again, they aren't really sure.
c.) (what you're referring to - someone sees such and such mentioned, and when they handle it they like it - so they buy it - then come in here and ask about it.

"I just don't get it why can't they be satisfied with just standard loads.
Beats me. I don't worry about the people that are unsure and ask. It's the ones that are unsure and don't ask that give me the heebie jeebies since they may well be the guy standing next to me at the range.

"Is it just the hype that bigger is better or that no one seems satisfied with what they bought after they get it"
Hype pretty much sums it up.

+P is simply a peak pressure 10% above SAAMI.

The now discontinued NyClad's are a fine example. In the 158 gr offering, there was less than 35 fps. difference between the standard and the +P offerings. Factoring in S/D, that meant that the +P offering may actually be going slower than the standard offering in some instances.

oh and Shooter,
"Nobody in his or her right mind would choose to take a handgun to a gunfight"

- "And why make hasty generalizations?"

Personally I'd grab my 19 or 29 Smith over any of the dozen or so rifles in the safe.

[Webleymkv]

Can't really say anything about semi-autos. However consider the following: you come across a nice older S&W Chief's Special for a steal. You're not sure if it can handle +P or not so you trot on down to Barg'N Mart or wherever to pick up a box of standard pressure carry loads just to be on the safe side. Unfortunately, you find that standard pressure .38's are kind of hard to come by in something other than a FMJ, LRN, or LWC none of which are deemed to be all that spectacular for self defence. Yes I know that standard pressure HP can be found if one looks hard enough, but you bought a .38 thinking that you could get your ammo anywhere. So in light of this dilemma, you decide to at least investigate the prospect of using the widely available +P SD rounds.

[swmike]

What I carry in my weapon should only be of concern to the BG. He is the only one that has a chance of getting shot with it but his opinion doesn't matter.

[shield20]

What the .38 and 9mm weren't getting done was putting the BGs down reliably. Back in the 80's when everyone was scrambling for the best wondernine, it was soon discovered when it came to real life shootings the 9 wasn't such a wonder. There was a big scramble to make it more effective - 115 vs 147 vs fast vs subsonic vs +p vs +p+... Having to wade through all that & seeing over and over the latest "answer", trying to find the best most effective round to carry - something you would bet your life on - was unnerving really.

Go on enough patrols alone, watch enough re-creation movies on the Miami FBI shootout, and you would know they are far from perfect.

Thank God and S&W for the .40.

[OBIWAN]

From Dr. Gary Roberts(DocGKR) at TF:

"Recently, there has been a trend in 9 mm LE ammunition sales to the 124 gr JHP's. The most recent sales distribution data I have seen indicates 50% 124 gr, 40% 147 gr, and 10% 115 gr. Is it possible that the illogical hype of bullets shown to be less effective than the 9mm 147 gr JHP’s is a result of bullet salesmen and gun magazine writers who need to sell a product? Perhaps the well documented success of the 9mm 147 gr JHP in California is a result of differing laws of physics on the West Coast than in other areas…….. Unfortunately, that conjecture does not stand up to scrutiny, as the extensive Royal Canadian Mounted Police studies determined that the 9mm 147 gr JHP was the most effective load for the caliber. In addition, during the ammunition trials for the U.S. Military M11 pistol (Sig P228) conducted by Navy Weapons Center Crane Indiana, the 9mm 147gr JHP was selected as the issue load for the M11, beating a variety of other 9mm JHP loads, including both standard pressure and +P pressure 115 gr and 124 gr JHP’s. The largest independently verified study of bullet penetration and expansion characteristics in living human tissue has shown the 9mm 147 gr JHP to offer acceptable performance in law enforcement lethal force confrontations. A senior criminalist with the San Diego P.D., Mr. Eugene J. Wolberg, has analyzed their 9 mm 147 gr JHP performance in 10% ordnance gelatin and compared the laboratory results with the actual terminal effects produced in human tissue in nearly 150 officer involved shootings with the San Diego Police Department. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, the majority of their bullets have penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. This appears to be ideal performance from a 9mm. San Diego PD switched to the 9mm 147 gr JHP when their lighter weight, higher velocity 9mm 115 gr JHP bullets had several failures to penetrate deeply enough to create damage to vital organs in the torso and cause rapid incapacitation."

[TX_RGR]

So a bigger bullet was more effective. No surprise there. I still don't see how that proves that standard loads are more effective than +P. It does illustrate however why I prefer a 230 gr 45ACP to a 9mm anything.

[OBIWAN]

I didn't say "more effective"

More like that +P isn't magically more effective

Although...there was an FBI study where they showed that many bullet designs LOST penetration when their velocity was increased.

They expanded to approx the same diameter

But showed inadequate penetration

So my point is (other than carry whatever you want) why use +p, when standard pressure rounds will git-r-done

If you want to ...I say fine....but pretending that +P or +p+ rounds have some "magical qualities"

Is just silly

[JR47]

There is actually some basis in fact for the +P loading in 9mm. European weapons, like the Luger P.08, the Walther P38, and many others won't cycle reliably with Saami spec loads. They are designed to be used with CIP loads from Europe. These are consistent with SAAMI +P.

What you put into your weapon is secondary to what you put into the bad guy. +P is a legal fact of life for manufacturers, as is +P+. In America, you don't go exceeding nominal specifications without altering the designation. To do so will only enrich the attornies.

Police Departments, and federal agencies, all have their own specifications for what they consider optimal performance from their duty weapons. The manufacturers fulfill that request. Most of them seem happy with the 124 gr. +P and +P+ loads, especially on the street.

I always found it amusing that the 9mm load of choice was the 147 gr. at approx. 950 fps. The +P .38 Special at 140-150 gr. is just about the same thing. So, we've transitioned to nothing more than high-cap .38s.

By the way, the military ballistic gelatin has always been a 20% mix, not the 10% that civilian agencies use. This will alter the properties somewhat. Be careful of comparing apples to oranges.

[cje1980]

Using +p loads in short barreled weapons makes sense and acts kind of like an equalizer. I've seen cases where 230gr. 45ACP loads failed to expand due to lack of velocity from a shorter barrel. A +p out of a short barrel would have performed very similar to a standard pressure load out of a service weapon.

[OBIWAN]

Or you could use some of the laods that use the solid cop[per hollowpoints

They do real well out of shorter barrels

But the newer gold dots do pretty well across a wide velocity range

[Wildcard]

Go on enough patrols alone, watch enough re-creation movies on the Miami FBI shootout, and you would know they are far from perfect.

The FBI Miami shootout was not a 9mm failure, it was a tactics failure.

[cje1980]

The FBI Miami shootout was not a 9mm failure, it was a tactics failure.

I would say it was a little of both, I don't see how anyone could say that the 9mm didn't fail. It failed to reach the vital organs. That is a failure by today's standards. In those however, it was tough just to make a handgun bullet expand period, let alone penetrate barriers, and expand after passing through several layers of clothing. The 115gr. Win ST is a pretty good choice for civilian SD situations but is not up to par for LE needs. They need a bullet that will go through windshields, auto doors, limbs, before reaching vital organs. So in this context it did fail, just that nobody knew exactly what they needed ammunition to do. Now they do.