filled my tag! 220 grain rn surprise!

[Roadkill2228]

I just filled my whitetail deer tag here in northeast Saskatchewan. We had a seriously reduced season this year (Nov 20-Dec2) but I still got mine, a nice buck. Not much for antlers but I do not care about antlers I hunt for meat, the joy of hunting in and of itself, and as an excuse to disappear into the outdoors for awhile without having to explain myself to people. I got a real workout dragging the thing through the snow, even with the guts out me and my dad figure it weighed around 200 pounds or so and I had to drag the thing about a quarter mile by myself so my wrists are quite sore 2 days later. we got an even 80lb of meat off of it, that's with fat trimmed off and no bones or anything, just straight up meat. My tag cost 45 bucks so that's a real good return for my money if you want to look at it that way. Anyways, I thought I'd share some surprising terminal ballistics results...I shot this buck from about 80 yards I would guess, it was running flat out when I hit it and it was a quartering away shot...would you believe that the 220 grain Hornady Interlock round nose bullet fired out of my .300 Winchester Magnum DID NOT EXIT!!!!! It dropped the animal almost immediately, a super fast kill, but I was amazed. The offside shoulder stopped it (it busted the heck out of said shoulder) and I recovered 2 massive pieces and two little ones, as best I can tell it separated at the cannelure, recovered weight of all fragments was just shy of 190 grains. So it performed excellently in that it brought the animal down immediately, but...some treat bullet performance with the attitude that sectional density is the main thing affecting penetration, and I am telling you from experience, it is not. It matters, but bullet construction matters more. So for those thinking that a big 220 RN is an insurance policy automatically turning a .30 caliber rifle into a grizzly death ray or something like that...NOPE!!! I've seen 130 grain .270s go deeper (but not drop things like the big .300) anyway, I'm happy to have not come home empty handed, and I though you might find this interesting.

[hooligan1]

Cool man congrats, sounds like hunter and equipment did their intended job.

[kutz]

Good deal.

[jmr40]

Sometimes bullets do unexpected things. I'd have expected better penetration than that. I've not read a lot about the 220 Hornady's. It is the 220 Nosler Patition that has the reputation for deep penetration. Useful information none the less. Thanks for the report and congratulations.

[ripnbst]

Congratulations but pics or it didn't happen.

[gedenke]

Congrats on the successful harvest!

Since this seems to be "mostly" about bullet performance, I'll share my experience in a nearly identical scenario.

Pretty much same shot, also a .300WM...but mine was a 180gr Barnes TSX. Bang-flop, piled the buck up right there. Bullet passed through a leg bone, two ribs, turned the heart & one lung to jello, and wound up just below the skin in the neck. It was in one piece, expanded into a nearly perfect X shaped mushroom, and while I didn't weigh it, I'd guess it had at least 98% weight retention. Not bad for passing through 3ft of meat and bone!

[JD0x0]

I'd have expected better penetration than that.

+1

I'm curious of the range this animal was shot, or rather the impact velocity of the bullet. I'm wondering if the range was too short, and the bullet impacted rather hard, causing maximum ('excessive?') expansion, and limiting penetration.

[Roadkill2228]

The distance was about 80 yards, they were reloads with a chronod velocity of just over 2600 fps (not as fast as the .300 could push but a bit faster still than the 06 is safely capable of)...this bullet was designed I believe especially for the 06 and at 80 yards from my gun it'd be like the .30-06 at the muzzle or slightly further out. Also, I think that's even more astounding that a deer stopped a 180 ttsx...wow! Everything a guy reads suggests that those go through everything and anything. My folks have a meat grinder and a smoker and a few other useful processing tools so we made a bunch of sausages (50/50 venison pork), some jerky, have a little over 20lbs of hamburger, and a bunch of roasts from the hindquarters and of course the best cut of meat (IMO), the tenderloins)

[Roadkill2228]

I loaded these specifically to be hard hitting meat savers and despite the bullet breakup there wasn't much meat lost, my .270 with 130 grain interlock sp at just shy of 3200 fps completely destroyed an entire shoulder of meat on last years deer, so I have come to the same conclusion as many others: bullet construction being similar (in this case, cup and core soft point), a light bullet moving fast is more violently destructive than a heavy one moving a bit slower, and there doesn't seem to be much difference in how emphatic the kill is.

[gedenke]

I usually don't take length-wise shots (bears walking/running towards me being the exception). With that bullet (TTSX/TSX) in all calibers listed, every time I've taken the preferred cross-body shot at vitals, I've always had pass throughs with minimal meat damage. Usually the bloodshot around the wound is about 2-4". I think in my given example, the initial bone strike of hitting the femur is really what slowed it down, but it didn't break apart.

I only have two comparisons using soft point jacketed bullets. One was a good sized Blacktail, .30-06 w/ Core Loct, at close range (20yds), two cross-body shots. The first shot was poor placement and the buck got up and ran, but I take responsibility for that...first buck, long story. All I found on that one was entry/exit wounds, and a couple small "shards" of copper jacket and LOTS of bloodshot. Like 8-10"

The other was a small black bear, also at close range, 6.5 w/ Interlocks. I had to shoot multiple times, as the first shot in the chest didn't penetrate into the vitals. I found several pieces of copper and lead and again, LOTS of bloodshot. Now, this particular case may also be partially due to wrong caliber choice (I wasn't looking for bear that day), but I wasn't happy with the results.

Since then, I traded the 6.5 away (needed a new barrel) and after trying the solid, lead-free Barnes, that's all I use. I've been very impressed with the performance. I have NEVER had to shoot more than once, and NEVER had to track an animal more than a few yards. To me, that makes it worth the extra price. And honestly, I see it coming here in Oregon that lead bullets will soon be outlawed, so I'm already prepared for that.

Geez, with all this promoting I'm doing for Barnes, I think they should send me a box or two of free bullets! Ha!

I would like to hear some first hand experience with some of the other premium lead free or bonded bullets that compare to the Barnes...anybody?

[gedenke]

For the record, and before you guys crucify me for "talking down" a traditional bullet, let me say this:

I'm not saying a traditional bullet is a bad bullet. Yes, the Core Loct (or similar) has been very successful and effective for longer than I've been alive, and is indeed a great bullet. All I'm saying is for me, in my limited experience, I'm more confident in the bullets I choose to use (Barnes TSX). I'm happy with the accuracy and performance, so that's what I shoot for HUNTING.

On a side note, my .308 Browning X-bolt LOVES the Nosler Custom Competition HPBT 168s. TARGET shooting. Bone stock with a Nikon Monarch, she'll shoot .3" @ 100 with hand loads.

[GeauxTide]

Probably due to impact velocity with the 300WM (2700fps) and RN configuration. I'd venture the same bullet at 2500fps would plow right through.

[Roadkill2228]

I did wonder about that higher velocity...but here's my point; a lot of people seem to have it in their head that a 220rn out of a .30-06 (which it was meant for) is a good choice for grizzly hunting/defence...this buck was about 80 yards away...at 80 yards that blunt bullet can't be moving much faster than an -06 at 10 yards...so I would want to have a different projectile if hunting/anticipating a big dangerous critter...it's just that the 220 rn is sometimes thought to make the .30-06 into a bigger gun and that's just not what my experience has informed me to be correct. What really makes me think is that if I'm not mistaken one of weatherbys factory loads for their .300 featured this exact bullet (not sure if they still offer it)...if so it would seem to be a poor choice. Worked awesome on my deer though.

[JD0x0]

Well it also depends on the construction of the 220grn RN. A 220 grain solid could ethically hunt elephant and would be a good 'bear buster'


Also, from my limited experience with 150 grain RN bullets in my .270, it seems that due to the larger frontal area of the RN compared to a semi spitzer or spitzer bullet, the RN tend to expand more easily and can open up a bit faster given equal impact speeds.

[Snyper]

Bullets can't penetrate if there isn't enough resistance.

I suspect the deer was knocked forward by the impact and that absorbed much of the force.

I've seen similar things happen shooting at various objects over the years

[Panfisher]

Say what? How could bullets penetrate air then, very little resistance. The bullet is a thin jacketed bullet with lot of exposed nose/lead made to expand easily and quickly, the 300 mag just made it do it better. End result very dead deer seems to have worked wonderfully.

[Tom Matiska]

My guess is that bullet tumble after impact is the big wild card here. I heard a vintage tale or two from old Krag shooters about their rounds not exiting a small deer and hitting harder than a shotgun slug. The long skinny 220's can over penetrate, or tumble and cause a train wreck.

[Panfisher]

The big long 220 tumbling would be a good bet! Would explain the results.

[Snyper]

Say what? How could bullets penetrate air then, very little resistance.

The bullet is a thin jacketed bullet with lot of exposed nose/lead made to expand easily and quickly, the 300 mag just made it do it better. End result very dead deer seems to have worked wonderfully.

That's just silly

What I mean is, if the target MOVES on impact, it absorbs the energy and doesn't allow the bullet to punch through.

I've shot bowling pins with a 44 mag where one would go through both sides with the pin barely moving and the next wouldn't, but the PIN would be knocked 50 ft or more

It's simple physics

[Panfisher]

Exactly the one that offered the least resistance the bullet passed through completely expending the energy on the other side. The one with the most resistance stopped the bullet and absorbed the energy. All that aside I would bet Tom is right the twist rate was too slow to stabilize that long RN 220 bullet and it began to tumble on impact. Breaking up and delivering all its energy into the body of the deer.

[JD0x0]

All that aside I would bet Tom is right the twist rate was too slow to stabilize that long RN 220 bullet and it began to tumble on impact.

If the rifle is 1:10 it's got more than enough twist. RN bullets are shorter than spitzers and dont require such a fast twist because they're short for their weight. If the bullet isn't stabilized enough, it's going to be tumbling through the air, not through flesh. AFAIK soft point bullets dont typically tumble in flesh, they're meant to open up and travel straight through. If the bullet tumbles, I'd assume it'd gain penetration, if it's not shedding weight since the large frontal area of an expanded soft point typically causes more drag than a yawed bullet.

According to the OP the bullet only lost about 40 grains of mass, which actually isn't too bad for a lead core bullet at .300 Win mag velocities.

The length of the 220 grain RN is 1.283''
The length of a 190 grain Nosler ABLR is 1.460
The length of a 150 grain Nosler AB spitzer is 1.230''

The 220 grain bullet is barely longer than a 150 grain spitzer, and due to its significantly higher mass and more forward center of gravity, it may actually have more stability than a 150 grain spitzer bullet, in the same barrel.

[Tom Matiska]

I agree JD the bullet is very stable in air, but all bets are off after impact, and as with air, the longer bullets are more likely to tumble. Very possible it tumbled.

[Roadkill2228]

Thanks for your insight and ideas guys...I think I'm going to conclude that the bullet did indeed tumble...that would explain why it broke into 2 at the cannelure...that must be the weak spot from the side...about this idea that the bullet fell apart/didn't penetrate because it met insufficient resistance...I must respectfully say I don't think this happened and I don't think it ever happens with deer size game and larger. Now I do understand what is said about how when shooting at bowling pins or in my experience even tin cans with a pellet gun, the target is pushed back further when it contains the bullet...but this is not a bowling pin or a tin can, this is a 250 (ish) lb critter (live weight)...mythbusters did an episode about the ideas of bullet "stopping power" or "knockdown power"...these are indeed myths...for the deer to be "pushed" enough to absorb any of the bullets energy in that manner, the bullet would have had to have a huge frontal area and the deer would have had to fly aff it's feet (this did not happen) at a terrific speed. Also, as was alluded to, the fact that the bullet broke in half means it met gobs of resistance.

[Snyper]

.for the deer to be "pushed" enough to absorb any of the bullets energy in that manner, the bullet would have had to have a huge frontal area and the deer would have had to fly aff it's feet (this did not happen) at a terrific speed.

Bullets lose speed VERY quickly once they enter the animal.

That energy went somewhere, and if it were converted to forward motion, you'd never notice in the short time it takes,

The deer was already moving away from you, so you wouldn't have seen any change in motion, since it would only be a few feet for a 250 lb animal that was already running

[Roadkill2228]

Indeed there was no noticeable motion on the 250 lb animal...that was MY point (and panfishers)...and indeed the bullet loses speed very quickly upon impact...this indicates a tremendous amount of resistance is encountered...again, that's my point. What we are trying to refute here is the plainly backwards notion that "bullets can't penetrate if there isn't enough resistance"...are you honestly suggesting that a bullet that won't go through a deer will go through a larger animal like a moose or elk because it is met with greater resistance? Because that's the logical progression of thought from here if the low resistance=low penetration theory has any merit (and most of our hunting experiences/common sense informs us it does not)