Flash Over & A Little Dab Will Do You

JMI · January 2, 2012, 06:39 PM

Being new to this BP shooting you can take my opinion with a grain of salt. The topic being raised by me is "flash over" and the use of Crisco or other greasy kid's stuff slathered on after seating the round ball. I am not addressing "flash over" through the nipples, only through the front (loading) end of the BP cylinder.

My loading process is:

1) powder (Pyrodex P)
2) lubed wool wad (from Cabelas)
3) ball (.454)

into my Pietta 1858 Remington NMA.

Pressing the .454 ball leaves the shaved ring of lead that everyone seems to look for. How a spark (or even hot gases) can get passed a seal of that nature is beyond me. With a lubed wool wad sitting behind that lead seal acting as another seal... you get the picture. I just don't see it happening.

Loading undersized balls that don't leave a shaved ring or using conical projectiles? That could very well be another kettle of fish.

Jim

Newton24b · January 2, 2012, 07:06 PM

colonel sam colt himself solved the issue many years ago with the following facts.

1. if the chamber is an actual cylinder, with no defects in it (ie its a cylinder and not say, egg shaped) you are happy.

2. if the projectile properly seals the chamber mouth ( ie, round ball shaveth the lead ring, swaged in, actual lead sphere and not malformed due to casting issues resulting in a hole for flame and powder to flow through) you are good.

3. if the above is correct and happening, you have nothing to worry about flash over. he spent years figuring out theright way to taper the cylinder and barrel throat to prevent the flame from blowing into a chamber.

4.in he demo tests in england, he was firing his gun with loose powder placed upon the other loaded chambers. allthough the loose powder flared up and burned off with the first shot, there were not asingle chain fire.

5. the lubricant goes to elmer keiths youth when it was done to help keep the fouling soft. colt did experiment with lubricators and lubricated balls. but when the government switched to conicals with lubricant grooves it was a moot point.

Navy joe · January 2, 2012, 11:48 PM

I don't know anything other than my experience with my Pietta 1858. I was using .457 balls and pulling a nice lead ring. I figured those guys on the internet were full of it and besides I didn't have any lube and wanted to shoot now!!! Well, about my 3rd cylinder ever I had the cylinder just left of the barrel fire also, I could see the ball hit 20 yards downrange way left. Well, I quickly procured the best substitute I could, lithium grease and resumed my range session. I now use bore butter over the ball, never another incidence. I know chain fires are supposed to happen from the nipple too, but no lube and chainfire, lube and no chainfire, that was my experience. Plus it makes the gun easy to keep clean. I don't like lubed wads under the ball, if it gets warm enough the lube can soak out, of course I have left mine loaded for a long time, so probably not a concern if you fire it right after you load it.

Hellgate · January 3, 2012, 12:02 AM

A chamber can be drilled and the cylinder be faced off leaving a slight overhang of metal that lets the rammed ball shave a nice ring but leaving a slightly out of round ball with a space between the chamber and the lead. If the lip of the chamber has enough overhang you will get "ball creep" (no, not a VD!) and the ball will migrate forward under recoil and jam the cylinder. Back to my point: a ring of lead does not guarantee there can be no chain fire.

Noz · January 3, 2012, 10:14 AM

IF the chamber walls are free from cracks and IF the ball is of sufficient size and soft enough to completely fill the chamber as it is loaded and IF there are no casting flaws in the bullet(wrinkles etc) that would allow an opening for flame, then you don't need lube over the ball or wads under the ball.
When I first started using 1858s in CAS I had 4 chain fires, each time one extra chamber fired. I wanted my balls to look pretty so I had added a little lino to the alloy to make it produce shiny balls. It worked but it also produced a ball so hard that when rammed it left voids between the ball and the chamber walls.
Went to felt under the balls, which are cast from dead soft lead, and have now shot 1860s for several years with no problem.
Do I need the felt? Probably not.
Do i need grease over the top of the balls? No.
Will I continue to use the hard lube soaked felt wads? Yes.
Why? It makes me feel better.

noelf2 · January 3, 2012, 01:35 PM

I'm not crazy about using wads under the ball. Had accuracy problems with my remmies doing that. Just powder, ball, and a ring of crisco applied around the ball with an ink jet refill syringe for at the range. If I'm carrying in the woods for the day, I drip a bit of bees wax over/around the ball, but not a lot. Haven't tried bore butter, but it's probably more convenient all around. I just don't want to have to buy the stuff.

JMI · January 3, 2012, 02:39 PM

After reading the responses I got out the (Pietta) Remington and checked the cylinder. The chamber ends have a slight bevel added after the the cylinder was faced off. I have no way to gage the roundness of the chambers but they appear concentric. The chamber walls look free of casting/machining defects. I'm a little too lazy to go digging around for a feeler gage but the gap between the cylinder face and the barrel does look to be no more the .003/.004. All in all the pistol is well made, at least as far as I can tell.

I certainly will not dispute other peoples experiences.

But barring any casting/machining/manufacturing defects (or flash overs

) I'm going along with Sam Colt (as relate by the first posted response) and continue to load the revolver without the grease.

I appreciate all the feedback.

Jim

rclark · January 3, 2012, 04:32 PM

I am, by no means, a BP expert, but in 30 years, I've always used 'Cream of Wheat' as my 'wad' and have never had a 'flash over'. Not quite 'historical' but it has worked well for me. No grease, no mess.

ClemBert · January 3, 2012, 09:27 PM

From what I've read you are more likely to get a chain fire from the rear because of loose caps. If you are getting chain fire from the front either you are using the wrong ball, have a irregular chamber (in which case I'd get rid of the junk or make it a wall hanger). The grease is good for keeping the BP fouling soft but other than that is nothing more that a "patch" to cover up some other underlying problem if you are expecting a chain fire. I use homemade lubed wads under my ball. No greasy mess and the fouling stays soft. JMHO.

radom · January 3, 2012, 11:31 PM

I gave up on the grease mess around 35 years ago and never have had a "flash over". Seems to work just fine with out the messy gunk.

Hawg · January 4, 2012, 05:45 AM

Said it here a thousand times, guess once more wont hurt.

I've got one that shaves a nice ring but if you don't use a wad or over ball lube it will chain. You can leave off the caps cept the one you're firing and it wont chain as long as the chambers are lubed.

radom · January 4, 2012, 05:58 AM

Hawg well that one needs the cylinder replaced as it has ahh issues then.

Noz · January 4, 2012, 10:29 AM

I have an 1851 Colt, produced in 1862 and the chambers are chamfered. The forward edge is slightly tapered to allow the ball to start easily into the chamber.
I used the LEE case chamfer tool to break the edges on all of my C & B guns. Works nicely. Takes about 2 minutes per gun.

ClemBert · January 4, 2012, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawg

Said it here a thousand times, guess once more wont hurt. I've got one that shaves a nice ring but if you don't use a wad or over ball lube it will chain. You can leave off the caps cept the one you're firing and it wont chain as long as the chambers are lubed.

I knew you'd chime is as I recall your situation.

Sounds like a great wall hanger and a great opportunity for a new shinny revolver to add to the collection.

Yay!!!

pohill · January 4, 2012, 04:09 PM

I've had two double-chamber fires, in two different guns. The common denominator was the poorly cast .375 roundballs (out of shape balls from a damaged mold). Each time the balls shaved a ring but I'm guessing the balls did not fill the chamber. I used either Bore Butter or Crisco. I do not believe the problem was at the nipple end, because of the poor condition of the roundballs.
I've always wondered if a chainfire could occur using Pryodex, as it's not as touchy as BP.

Hawg · January 4, 2012, 04:35 PM

Quote:

I've always wondered if a chainfire could occur using Pryodex,

Yes.

Quote:

Sounds like a great wall hanger and a great opportunity for a new shinny revolver to add to the collection. Yay!!!

Why? I've had it since 69 and it's always done it. It's fine as long as it's lubed and one of the most accurate ones I have.

Quote:

Hawg well that one needs the cylinder replaced as it has ahh issues then.

Maybe it does but there's not many Rigarmi cylinders floating around.

pohill · January 4, 2012, 05:28 PM

Quote:
I've always wondered if a chainfire could occur using Pryodex,

Yes.

Well, yeah, anything is possible but I've never heard of it happening with Pryodex.
In fact, I don't think it can happen with Pryodex.
So, anyone ever had, or heard of, a chainfire happening with Pryodex?

Hawg · January 4, 2012, 06:50 PM

Had it happen in the aforementioned revolver but it only fired three chambers instead of all six.

pohill · January 4, 2012, 08:11 PM

So it happened to you with Pryodex? Now I have proof, now I can stop wondering.
Now, can a Hawkins .50 chainfire?

mykeal · January 5, 2012, 08:19 AM

My GPR (almost a Hawken) .54 (almost a .50) flinter chainfires. Every time the powder in the pan goes off, the main charge in the chamber follows very quickly. Doesn't matter how much grease I put over the ball. Except with Pyrodex - only happens about 25% of the time.

noelf2 · January 5, 2012, 09:19 AM

I wonder if my 10 gauge sxs could chain fire? That would be painful.

Hawg · January 5, 2012, 05:25 PM

I don't think you have anything to worry about Noel.

paleodog · January 6, 2012, 09:23 PM

If you cast conical wheelweight bullets, you would need an overpowder wad or cornmeal instead of some type of grease, if you were afraid of a chainfire, right? Also, can you shoot Keith style cast bullets in a BP revolver for hunting hogs?

Hawg · January 7, 2012, 05:47 AM

The clip on wheel weights are too hard but no you wouldn't need a filler or wad. Getting an untapered Kieth loaded straight might be a problem.

deerslayer303 · January 7, 2012, 09:42 AM

I was going to cast some .457's out of wheels weights, so this is not a good idea? I had a 30 gallon drum full given to me by a tire shop

January 2, 2012, 06:39 PM	#1
JMI Junior Member Join Date: October 25, 2011 Posts: 6	Flash Over & A Little Dab Will Do You Being new to this BP shooting you can take my opinion with a grain of salt. The topic being raised by me is "flash over" and the use of Crisco or other greasy kid's stuff slathered on after seating the round ball. I am not addressing "flash over" through the nipples, only through the front (loading) end of the BP cylinder. My loading process is: 1) powder (Pyrodex P) 2) lubed wool wad (from Cabelas) 3) ball (.454) into my Pietta 1858 Remington NMA. Pressing the .454 ball leaves the shaved ring of lead that everyone seems to look for. How a spark (or even hot gases) can get passed a seal of that nature is beyond me. With a lubed wool wad sitting behind that lead seal acting as another seal... you get the picture. I just don't see it happening. Loading undersized balls that don't leave a shaved ring or using conical projectiles? That could very well be another kettle of fish. Jim

January 2, 2012, 11:48 PM	#3
Navy joe Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2001 Location: VA, USA Posts: 1,804	I don't know anything other than my experience with my Pietta 1858. I was using .457 balls and pulling a nice lead ring. I figured those guys on the internet were full of it and besides I didn't have any lube and wanted to shoot now!!! Well, about my 3rd cylinder ever I had the cylinder just left of the barrel fire also, I could see the ball hit 20 yards downrange way left. Well, I quickly procured the best substitute I could, lithium grease and resumed my range session. I now use bore butter over the ball, never another incidence. I know chain fires are supposed to happen from the nipple too, but no lube and chainfire, lube and no chainfire, that was my experience. Plus it makes the gun easy to keep clean. I don't like lubed wads under the ball, if it gets warm enough the lube can soak out, of course I have left mine loaded for a long time, so probably not a concern if you fire it right after you load it. __________________ FY47012

January 3, 2012, 12:02 AM	#4
Hellgate Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Location: Orygun Posts: 869	A chamber can be drilled and the cylinder be faced off leaving a slight overhang of metal that lets the rammed ball shave a nice ring but leaving a slightly out of round ball with a space between the chamber and the lead. If the lip of the chamber has enough overhang you will get "ball creep" (no, not a VD!) and the ball will migrate forward under recoil and jam the cylinder. Back to my point: a ring of lead does not guarantee there can be no chain fire. __________________ With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball. SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129 Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell)

January 3, 2012, 01:35 PM	#6
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	I'm not crazy about using wads under the ball. Had accuracy problems with my remmies doing that. Just powder, ball, and a ring of crisco applied around the ball with an ink jet refill syringe for at the range. If I'm carrying in the woods for the day, I drip a bit of bees wax over/around the ball, but not a lot. Haven't tried bore butter, but it's probably more convenient all around. I just don't want to have to buy the stuff. __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

January 3, 2012, 04:32 PM	#8
rclark Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2009 Location: Butte, MT Posts: 2,624	I am, by no means, a BP expert, but in 30 years, I've always used 'Cream of Wheat' as my 'wad' and have never had a 'flash over'. Not quite 'historical' but it has worked well for me. No grease, no mess. __________________ A clinger and deplorable, MAGA, and life NRA member. When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. Single Action .45 Colt (Sometimes colloquially referred to by its alias as the .45 'Long' Colt or .45LC). Don't leave home without it. That said, the .44Spec is right up their too... but the .45 Colt is still the king. Last edited by rclark; January 4, 2012 at 11:14 AM.

January 2, 2012, 07:06 PM	#2
Newton24b Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Posts: 974	colonel sam colt himself solved the issue many years ago with the following facts. 1. if the chamber is an actual cylinder, with no defects in it (ie its a cylinder and not say, egg shaped) you are happy. 2. if the projectile properly seals the chamber mouth ( ie, round ball shaveth the lead ring, swaged in, actual lead sphere and not malformed due to casting issues resulting in a hole for flame and powder to flow through) you are good. 3. if the above is correct and happening, you have nothing to worry about flash over. he spent years figuring out theright way to taper the cylinder and barrel throat to prevent the flame from blowing into a chamber. 4.in he demo tests in england, he was firing his gun with loose powder placed upon the other loaded chambers. allthough the loose powder flared up and burned off with the first shot, there were not asingle chain fire. 5. the lubricant goes to elmer keiths youth when it was done to help keep the fouling soft. colt did experiment with lubricators and lubricated balls. but when the government switched to conicals with lubricant grooves it was a moot point.

January 3, 2012, 10:14 AM	#5
Noz Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 643	IF the chamber walls are free from cracks and IF the ball is of sufficient size and soft enough to completely fill the chamber as it is loaded and IF there are no casting flaws in the bullet(wrinkles etc) that would allow an opening for flame, then you don't need lube over the ball or wads under the ball. When I first started using 1858s in CAS I had 4 chain fires, each time one extra chamber fired. I wanted my balls to look pretty so I had added a little lino to the alloy to make it produce shiny balls. It worked but it also produced a ball so hard that when rammed it left voids between the ball and the chamber walls. Went to felt under the balls, which are cast from dead soft lead, and have now shot 1860s for several years with no problem. Do I need the felt? Probably not. Do i need grease over the top of the balls? No. Will I continue to use the hard lube soaked felt wads? Yes. Why? It makes me feel better.

January 3, 2012, 02:39 PM	#7
JMI Junior Member Join Date: October 25, 2011 Posts: 6	After reading the responses I got out the (Pietta) Remington and checked the cylinder. The chamber ends have a slight bevel added after the the cylinder was faced off. I have no way to gage the roundness of the chambers but they appear concentric. The chamber walls look free of casting/machining defects. I'm a little too lazy to go digging around for a feeler gage but the gap between the cylinder face and the barrel does look to be no more the .003/.004. All in all the pistol is well made, at least as far as I can tell. I certainly will not dispute other peoples experiences. But barring any casting/machining/manufacturing defects (or flash overs ) I'm going along with Sam Colt (as relate by the first posted response) and continue to load the revolver without the grease. I appreciate all the feedback. Jim

January 3, 2012, 09:27 PM	#9
ClemBert Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2009 Location: Orlando Posts: 936	From what I've read you are more likely to get a chain fire from the rear because of loose caps. If you are getting chain fire from the front either you are using the wrong ball, have a irregular chamber (in which case I'd get rid of the junk or make it a wall hanger). The grease is good for keeping the BP fouling soft but other than that is nothing more that a "patch" to cover up some other underlying problem if you are expecting a chain fire. I use homemade lubed wads under my ball. No greasy mess and the fouling stays soft. JMHO.

January 3, 2012, 11:31 PM	#10
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,358	I gave up on the grease mess around 35 years ago and never have had a "flash over". Seems to work just fine with out the messy gunk.

January 4, 2012, 05:45 AM	#11
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	Said it here a thousand times, guess once more wont hurt. I've got one that shaves a nice ring but if you don't use a wad or over ball lube it will chain. You can leave off the caps cept the one you're firing and it wont chain as long as the chambers are lubed.

January 4, 2012, 05:58 AM	#12
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,358	Hawg well that one needs the cylinder replaced as it has ahh issues then.

January 4, 2012, 10:29 AM	#13
Noz Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 643	I have an 1851 Colt, produced in 1862 and the chambers are chamfered. The forward edge is slightly tapered to allow the ball to start easily into the chamber. I used the LEE case chamfer tool to break the edges on all of my C & B guns. Works nicely. Takes about 2 minutes per gun.

January 4, 2012, 04:09 PM	#15
pohill Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: northeast Posts: 521	I've had two double-chamber fires, in two different guns. The common denominator was the poorly cast .375 roundballs (out of shape balls from a damaged mold). Each time the balls shaved a ring but I'm guessing the balls did not fill the chamber. I used either Bore Butter or Crisco. I do not believe the problem was at the nipple end, because of the poor condition of the roundballs. I've always wondered if a chainfire could occur using Pryodex, as it's not as touchy as BP.

January 4, 2012, 05:28 PM	#17
pohill Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: northeast Posts: 521	Quote: I've always wondered if a chainfire could occur using Pryodex, Yes. Well, yeah, anything is possible but I've never heard of it happening with Pryodex. In fact, I don't think it can happen with Pryodex. So, anyone ever had, or heard of, a chainfire happening with Pryodex?

January 4, 2012, 06:50 PM	#18
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	Had it happen in the aforementioned revolver but it only fired three chambers instead of all six.

January 4, 2012, 08:11 PM	#19
pohill Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: northeast Posts: 521	So it happened to you with Pryodex? Now I have proof, now I can stop wondering. Now, can a Hawkins .50 chainfire?

January 5, 2012, 08:19 AM	#20
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	My GPR (almost a Hawken) .54 (almost a .50) flinter chainfires. Every time the powder in the pan goes off, the main charge in the chamber follows very quickly. Doesn't matter how much grease I put over the ball. Except with Pyrodex - only happens about 25% of the time.

January 5, 2012, 09:19 AM	#21
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	I wonder if my 10 gauge sxs could chain fire? That would be painful. __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

January 5, 2012, 05:25 PM	#22
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	I don't think you have anything to worry about Noel.

January 6, 2012, 09:23 PM	#23
paleodog Member Join Date: March 11, 2011 Location: SW Georgia Posts: 30	Flash Over and If you cast conical wheelweight bullets, you would need an overpowder wad or cornmeal instead of some type of grease, if you were afraid of a chainfire, right? Also, can you shoot Keith style cast bullets in a BP revolver for hunting hogs?

January 7, 2012, 05:47 AM	#24
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	The clip on wheel weights are too hard but no you wouldn't need a filler or wad. Getting an untapered Kieth loaded straight might be a problem.

January 7, 2012, 09:42 AM	#25
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,654	I was going to cast some .457's out of wheels weights, so this is not a good idea? I had a 30 gallon drum full given to me by a tire shop