Talked with Lee Reloading about neck tension/crimp die

[tpcollins]

I decided to call Lee Reloading about increasing the neck tension versus using a crimp die. Even though their instructions say the mandrel in their neck collet die can be polished to remove an extra .001", their technical adviser said the factory crimp die would be far superior for bullet tension than trying to reduce the mandrel's diameter a hair for use in an AR15. He said there would still be some amount of springback that wouldn't occur with the FCD - I'll take him at his word.

I would think that like most things in life, people go to extremes sometimes and wind up with problems. I suspect some reloaders using the factory crimp have squeezed the crap out their rounds and decided it's a bad process. Since I'm only going to reload for hunting ammo for my AR, I ordered a FCD for $15.45 shipped. I give it a try but at a very, very light crimp to see how it works. Whether it's actually necessary or not is irrelevant - I just want to try it. If done in moderation I can't think it will hurt and it's my time I'm wasting . . . ymmv.

[dacaur]

I would bet you will like it.... I have seen very fwe people who have actualy tried a FCD and didnt like it. Most of the FCD haters have never tried one because they "know" it wont help. a large portion of the remaining claim to have tried it years and years ago, and some I am pretty sure are fibbing about every trying them....

I have yet to see/read about a test where someone legitimately tested a FCD to see if it helped and it ended up hurting accuracy...

[Striker1]

Gents,

If you read Lee's reloading manual, I believe he states the idea is mainly to get a consistent bullet pull weight which enhances accuracy. I don't recall him saying much about it increasing neck tension (but I could be wrong on that one).

[tpcollins]

I'm probably more cautious than necessary but I view the FCD less for accuracy and more to insure the bullet stays put when cycling thru my AR. I'm aware of all of the threads where guys don't crimp and have never had a problem but having it happen once is too often for me.

I reload for my bolts and never saw it as an issue but in a semi-auto AR with that bolt slamming shut I'd rather be safe than sorry.

[Lost Sheep]

Remember that most of the heat generated around the Lee FCD's are over the pros and cons of the FCD for straight-walled cases.

The Lee FCD for bottlenecked cases works differently and (to the best of my knowledge) does not do post-sizing.

It is that post-sizing that can reduce neck tension in straight-walled cases that gives most FCD detractors their most legitimate complaint (in my opinion). But that applies only to the straight-walled cartridges.

Lost Sheep

[Crankgrinder]

I wish i had the money to spend on rcbs or dillon dies all ive ever used was Lee stuff. The fcd i use for 9mm/.38 and .357 have worked great no complaints at all here. Wish i could help with neck tension, as far as my knowledge goes about .001 press is whats required.

[mohr308]

I bought the RCBS .223/5.56 T/C 2 die set, T/C stands for taper crimp. This 2 die set does everything, and worth every penny. I use that set to load for my RRA AR-15 and I have never had a problem with feeding or anything for that matter. Its well worth the cost, seeing your able to size and deprime with 1 die and seat and crimp with the other one.

[eldorendo]

I've crimped a lot of ammo for my ARs using the FCD...before I wised up and stopped crimping ammo for my ARs. I guess talking with "someone" @ Lee is about like calling up the IRS and talking with "someone." You just might get b.s. information

Crimping AR ammo with a FCD won't increase neck tension (duh!!) and will only marginally (if at all) decrease the possibility of feedramp-induced setback.

If using the FCD for reloading AR ammo makes you feel better though, have at it. Nothing wrong with a little placebo every-now-and-then!!!

[steve4102]

ven though their instructions say the mandrel in their neck collet die can be polished to remove an extra .001", their technical adviser said the factory crimp die would be far superior for bullet tension than trying to reduce the mandrel's diameter a hair for use in an AR15.

Are you "Neck" sizing only for this AR, or are you neck sizing and body sizing?

Neck sizing only in an AR is a recipe for disaster.

[Slamfire]

Anyone who thinks they can improve on the accuracy of a rifle bullet by swaging its core is smoking a non-over the counter product. Unless you are in California, then it is an over the counter product.

The Lee FCD will deform a bullet core and it will deform the bullet sidewalls with very little effort.

After you set up your LFCD, following the directions, knock some of your bullets out and see if you have “coke bottled” your bullets.




All you need for your AR15 is firm case neck tension on the bullet. That is what National Champs use.

[jimkim]

I think the key to using the FCD is having enough common sense to set it right so it won't deform your bullets. A light crimp works for me.

I have a set of Hornady-Pacific 30-06 dies that will not completely remove the flare from a case. Using the FCD when loading cast bullets has solved this problem. I guess I could order another set of dies, but I kinda like these.

[marklyftogt]

I only use just enough FCD (9mm, 357) crimp to remove the flare plus a very light crimp. I used plated bullets and have pulled a few later and want to see just a light indentation into the plating.

[wncchester]

"I think the key to using the (rifle) FCD is having enough common sense to set it right so it won't deform your bullets. A light crimp works for me."

Roger that. Used correctly it's great, nothing's any good if it's misused.

Comparing Lee's rifle and pistol FCDs is apples and oranges; all they share is the name.

[Striker1]

Nice pic...did you try backing off a little?

[eldorendo]

If you back off to the point that the bullet's not deformed, then you've backed off to the point where you're not accomplishing anything, anyhow! As Slamfire said, serious competitors don't crimp their AR ammo. If more accuracy could be had by the use of the FCD, everybody who shoots @ Camp Perry would be using 'em. They don't.

[Striker1]

If you say so, but I would bet "most" reloaders aren't serious competitors.

[tpcollins]

Slamfire - that looks like alot of crimp if you ask me - no wonder you're not a fan. There looks to be alot of bullet out past the crimp - did you crimp at the end of the neck or halfway down to the shoulder?

I meant to say bullet retension - not bullet tension. The Lee instruction manual says what the others say about moderation - "It's best to start with too little crimp as you can readjust and crimp again to suit your needs".

I'm only going to reload for hunting ammo. If I don't shoot it, I don't want to continually have rotate the rounds that have be chambered. I only have to please myself . . . (and my wife).

[Slamfire]

If you say so, but I would bet "most" reloaders aren't serious competitors.

Well I say so, and so does every Nationally Ranked competitor I asked about crimping rifle bullets. Jacketed match rifle bullets that is. They don't do it. I don't do it, good shooters don't do it.

We have the best, most concentric, best balanced bullets ever in human history and someone thinks they can improve on them by swaging them in the middle?

I don't think so.

As for the feared "bullet bonking out " for AR15 bullets , I am of the opinion that is one of those made up corporate advertizing claims. Like “kills the germs that cause bad breath”. Total advertizing nonsense. Or Y2K. Maybe bullet bonking is possible but if it happens it is piffle.

If you set your bullet so far out that it gets jammed in the throat, you should seat your bullet deeper. That is as far as someone should go about worrying about OAL in a AR.

And I don’t load unless I plan to shoot. If you are going to spend all day chambering live rounds, and ejecting unfired rounds, you may create a cartridge function issue, but you certainly already have a compulsive behavior issue.

One thing, as your bolt goes forward, depending on how much clearance there is between the bolt face and barrel end, your cartridge headspace is going to get reduced a little bit. Melvin Johnson had an article about that in a 40’s/50’s American Rifleman.

Maybe someone could sell a gizmo to prevent the dreaded “drive-in”. Maybe if I convince enough people about the horrors of dreaded drive in I could make millions by selling them plastic Y2k stickum decals which will prevent the calamity. You pay your money, put the decal on your rifle and the dreaded drive in is fixed. That is how software guys got rich “fixing” the Y2K crisis.

Guess what, so what, dreaded drive in, or bullet bonking out, my match AR’s shoot sub MOA regardless.

Slamfire - that looks like alot of crimp if you ask me - no wonder you're not a fan. There looks to be alot of bullet out past the crimp - did you crimp at the end of the neck or halfway down to the shoulder?

These were 6.5 match bullets and they stick out more than a .223.

For those who do crimp with the FCD, pull some crimped bullets and see if they are swaged. You follow the factory directions and you crimp match bullets, they will be swaged in the middle. But you won't know it till you pull them.

[Striker1]

Well I say so, and so does every Nationally Ranked competitor I asked about crimping rifle bullets. Jacketed match rifle bullets that is. They don't do it. I don't do it, good shooters don't do it.

I wasn't disagreeing about what "serious competitors" do...I wouldn't know.

[Slamfire]

Quote:

Well I say so, and so does every Nationally Ranked competitor I asked about crimping rifle bullets. Jacketed match rifle bullets that is. They don't do it. I don't do it, good shooters don't do it.

Maybe I over reacted.

I think you should crimp for lever actions, elephant guns, and chain guns. Chain guns have ramming speeds so high bullets may pop out. That is one reason for the tar sealant in military bullets.

Lever actions are 2 MOA things, crimping won't be noticed. Elephant guns, high recoil will loosen bullets.

I have not seen any elephants in Alabama gardens, but they are out there. Don't want my 375 H&H to get out of order in case one pops out of the strawberry patch.

[steve4102]

Hey TP, you got it right. Don't let guys like Slamfire discourage you from testing your crimp theory. Every time someone brings up the LFCD, Slamfire posts these pictures of his failed attempt at it. His picture is a perfect example of what not to do. It is however very helpful for guys like you that have never use this die and would like some advice. So, take Slamfires photo advice and do just the opposite and you will be fine.

As for these guys that continue to puke out what the Bench Rest crowd does, ignore them as well. The BR guys do not crimp, so what, they don't shoot off the shelf rifles like you or I either, they also use several loading techniques that you and I wouldn't dream of in an off the shelf hunting/sporting rifle. Things like indexing every round, pig jamming the bullet so far into the lands that if extracted without firing the pullet will be pulled from the case, Having chambers so tight that neck sizing isn't required etc.etc. You know, things that do what the Lee Factory Crimp die does.

[moxie]

tpcollins,

The major factor in bullet RETENTION is case neck TENSION. Crimp adds very little, if anything.

Most rounds require little if any crimp. A properly sized and minimally expanded case will hold a bullet as tightly as you please without any crimping. The way to tell if it's been done right is to push the nose of the bullet against the bench, hard. It shouldn't move one iota, without crimping at all. If this is the case, why would you want to do anything more? In the case of auto handguns, you might want to remove any residual flare. That's all that's needed to fix the bullet and prevent setback. With rifles, such as the .223, there isn't even any flare to remove.

The only time you really NEED crimp is to prevent bullet jump in heavy recoiling handguns.

[Striker1]

The major factor in bullet RETENTION is case neck TENSION. Crimp adds very little, if anything.

Hi Moxie,

I'll ask a common question; why is military 5.56mm crimped? Is factory rifle ammo?

[Lost Sheep]

Slamfire, those bullets don't look "coke bottled" to me. They look "waisted".

Just a terminology suggestion. I could not resist.

Lost Sheep

Originally Posted by Slamfire post #9

(edited for brevity)
The Lee FCD will deform a bullet core and it will deform the bullet sidewalls with very little effort.

After you set up your LFCD, following the directions, knock some of your bullets out and see if you have “coke bottled” your bullets.

[steve4102]

Originally Posted by Slamfire post #9
(edited for brevity)
The Lee FCD will deform a bullet core and it will deform the bullet sidewalls with very little effort.

After you set up your LFCD, following the directions, knock some of your bullets out and see if you have “coke bottled” your bullets.

Better yet, forget what they look like and see how they shoot. Accuracy is number one with my ammo, not how a pulled bullet looks.