Pump vs Semi Auto vs Double for Defense - Page 3

LanceOregon · July 5, 2009, 03:41 AM

The Tristar semi-auto is a pretty decent deal. Here is a review where the shotgun was soaked with water and then frozen, and then test fired with ice all over it:

http://www.gunblast.com/images/TriStar/TriStar.wmv

The CZ Model 712 is very similar, and I like it better because it has a chromed bolt, and chrome lined chamber and barrel.

It is actually also a little less expensive, though both are very affordable.

-

Evyl Robot · July 5, 2009, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Evyl: You should get a SxS 10, they're a hoot.

I probably will eventually. There are lots of guns on my list.

Quote:

I like the reliability of the doubles... Plus doubles are mean lookin.

Yes, sir! I don't think the collection will be complete until I have a few doubles!

Quote:

BTW, I checked out your link to your holsters. Neat stuff you got goin there.

Thank you! I appreciate it!

A_McDougal · July 5, 2009, 05:22 PM

deleted

Katrina Guy · July 5, 2009, 09:16 PM

That's a viable concern for me, the gas seals, whatever they consist of, rubber? I need to pull out a shotgun a decade or two from now I don't want to "hope" everything's ok in there.

Cruncher Block · July 12, 2009, 12:24 AM

A shotgun training course made me wish I had a reliable semi instead of a pump. There's a lot to be said for one-handed operation.

Nevertheless, I still have my 870. Bottom line is I am used to it and it works. That and I'm a cheapskate, too.

I don't keep a house gun with a round in the chamber. After careful consideration, that's just where I personally landed on the safety vs. readiness scale. I considered the presence of kids in the home as well as the state of my motor skills and situational awareness when waking up startled.

As far as giving away my position by racking the gun, anyone choosing to forcefully come into my home could easily guess where I am. Stealth and surprise will not be in my favor, racked gun or not.

In the "bump in the night" scenario, I've decided there is danger in (a) looking for someone and (b) thinking that someone doesn't know where I am. It seems more practical to chamber a round, get somewhere safe, call the police, and issue a strong verbal command to get out of my house.

Skan21 · July 12, 2009, 12:45 AM

Here's my problem with this debate. All shotguns have to be loaded, right? Unless you keep a shotgun with a round in the chamber in your house. Which I don't. Unless the firearm in question is in my possesion at all times, like a ccw, I don't leave a firearm at redcon 1. That's silly, and it's waiting for an accident to happen. I leave my Mossberg 500 with a full mag under my bed. Well, until my son gets old enough for me to be worried about him working the pump. Then it goes in the safe. And I'll use the bioscan safe next to my bed to get my pistol. A semi auto is still going to make noice when you pull the bolt back and let it go forward to chamber a round. Just sayin.

Ian0351 · July 12, 2009, 02:29 AM

I have posted this elsewhere in 'bump in the night' type threads, but I personally think that taking a second to manually make the weapon ready (go from condition 3 to condition 1) is a good way for my sleepy possibly alcohol slowed head to say hello to the weapon before go-time. Also, even though it may not induce involuntary voiding of the bowels, that ka-chlak is a pretty good warning to the perp that I am ready and willing to breath fire should my playstation be that enticing to you. A buddy of mine who was a Marine MP in Iraq told me that "shacking one" (racking the T-handle on an M16) means the same thing in Arabic as it does in English: 'I'm done arguing with you now'.

mathman · July 12, 2009, 02:57 AM

I like autos...but I don't like the noise that autos or pumps make when chambering a round...I wouldn't want to give away where I am. Perhaps this is why the best defense weapon is a simple DA revolver loaded with six shots. Safe and quiet until you really need to make a noise with it.

shortwave · July 12, 2009, 10:36 AM

A regular maintenance/inspection schedule of probably the most important weapon/weapons(whichever is your preference) we own will cure the gas seal 'dry-rot' issue or insure our pump, semi-auto handgun or revolver will function when its mostly needed. These weapons should get the best care of all we own!

Dave McC · July 12, 2009, 09:12 PM

Concerning the noise of racking a pump giving away one's position,here it will precede firing a round or more by a fraction of a second.

Well below reaction time IF you know what you're doing.

And if you don't now, shoot until you can.....

sophijo · July 12, 2009, 10:42 PM

I saw some historical photos recently, of Dillinger's guns and I believe a couple of cut-down Browning A 5s were in that bunch. Ithaca pumps were used in Vietnam, and most importantly, Valdez in Valdez is Coming, carried a stubby SxS, "for rabbits"!

Brigadier · July 13, 2009, 10:28 AM

Question for those that like to rack a round into the chamber of your pump to scare away the home invader: Do you keep your semiauto pistol in the same condition and have to rack the slide before engaging the home invader?

The way I look at it, if the home invader is inside the house, several of my other security measures have failed, and it is way past time to make the weapon ready for combat. It should have been ready beforehand.

And as for the rules of safety: "Keep every gun unloaded until ready to use". Well, my shotgun beside my bed for HD IS being used, and should therefore be fully loaded.

DA revolvers are quiet, but handguns suck for defense. Give me a long gun any day. The only time I used a handgun for my primary HD weapon was when my kids were small enough I could carry them. That way if needed, I could carry them with one arm and fight with the other. Now that they are too big for that, give me the power of a 12 ga.

R1145 · July 23, 2009, 11:24 PM

I think shotguns embody the KISS Rule better than any other weapon: Keep It Simple, Stupid! Attempts to make the shotgun a more battle-worthy weapon take away from its simplicity and speed.

If you want to knock a guy down quickly at 25 yards, there's nothing better. If you want to do more, you should probably have a rifle.

For nearly any civilian defensive scenario, you can't go far wrong with a plain-jane 12 gauge pump loaded with 00 Buck. The autos are fine, perhaps even superior technically, but I don't think the expense and complication translate into any realistic tactical advantage. They probably require more maintenance and training as well. The double barrels are OK if that's what you've got for legal or other reasons, but I think it's a good idea to have more than two shots before a reload.

The tacticool accessories should be left in the Cheaper-Than-Dirt catalog (although a weapon light is a good idea, actually). I don't even like the extended mags (source of stoppages).

Keep it locked up but loaded (full mag, empty chamber, safety on). As soon as you deploy it, rack one into the chamber and take the safety off. Abide by the four fundamental rules of firearm safety.

mathman · July 23, 2009, 11:50 PM

Quote:

The tacticool accessories should be left in the Cheaper-Than-Dirt catalog

Boy...you can say that again. Am I the only one who just doesn't understand how people screw up their shotguns (and other guns too) by putting all this junk on it.

You know...I agree with you about the extended magazine as well...fun as hell at the range plinking and busting clays, but for defense, no extension...if you can't do it with 5 rounds of 00 or 000 buck, you probably can't do it.

Lee Lapin · July 24, 2009, 08:00 AM

Feh.

Software trumps hardware. If you hit what you shoot at, if you have mastered operating the gun and if the gun runs 100%, it matters little what mechanism is employed in its operation.

lpl

oneounceload · July 24, 2009, 10:01 AM

Quote:

The autos are fine, perhaps even superior technically, but I don't think the expense and complication translate into any realistic tactical advantage. They probably require more maintenance and training as well.

Sounds like this is coming from someone who has never used a semi before....
They require no more maintenance or training than you would with a pump

July 5, 2009, 09:16 PM	#54
Katrina Guy Junior member Join Date: July 2, 2006 Posts: 315	what about dry rot over time, LanceOregon That's a viable concern for me, the gas seals, whatever they consist of, rubber? I need to pull out a shotgun a decade or two from now I don't want to "hope" everything's ok in there.

July 12, 2009, 02:29 AM	#57
Ian0351 Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2009 Location: Washington Posts: 414	I have posted this elsewhere in 'bump in the night' type threads, but I personally think that taking a second to manually make the weapon ready (go from condition 3 to condition 1) is a good way for my sleepy possibly alcohol slowed head to say hello to the weapon before go-time. Also, even though it may not induce involuntary voiding of the bowels, that ka-chlak is a pretty good warning to the perp that I am ready and willing to breath fire should my playstation be that enticing to you. A buddy of mine who was a Marine MP in Iraq told me that "shacking one" (racking the T-handle on an M16) means the same thing in Arabic as it does in English: 'I'm done arguing with you now'. __________________ You can have your churches, I'll keep my guns. Just keep your hands off my paycheck and your eyes out of my backyard. Join the Libertarian Party! http://www.lp.org Semper Fidelis

July 12, 2009, 02:57 AM	#58
mathman Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2005 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,531	I like autos...but I don't like the noise that autos or pumps make when chambering a round...I wouldn't want to give away where I am. Perhaps this is why the best defense weapon is a simple DA revolver loaded with six shots. Safe and quiet until you really need to make a noise with it. __________________ Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak.

July 12, 2009, 10:42 PM	#61
sophijo Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2004 Posts: 666	Dillinger I saw some historical photos recently, of Dillinger's guns and I believe a couple of cut-down Browning A 5s were in that bunch. Ithaca pumps were used in Vietnam, and most importantly, Valdez in Valdez is Coming, carried a stubby SxS, "for rabbits"!

July 23, 2009, 11:24 PM	#63
R1145 Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 351	The KISS Rule I think shotguns embody the KISS Rule better than any other weapon: Keep It Simple, Stupid! Attempts to make the shotgun a more battle-worthy weapon take away from its simplicity and speed. If you want to knock a guy down quickly at 25 yards, there's nothing better. If you want to do more, you should probably have a rifle. For nearly any civilian defensive scenario, you can't go far wrong with a plain-jane 12 gauge pump loaded with 00 Buck. The autos are fine, perhaps even superior technically, but I don't think the expense and complication translate into any realistic tactical advantage. They probably require more maintenance and training as well. The double barrels are OK if that's what you've got for legal or other reasons, but I think it's a good idea to have more than two shots before a reload. The tacticool accessories should be left in the Cheaper-Than-Dirt catalog (although a weapon light is a good idea, actually). I don't even like the extended mags (source of stoppages). Keep it locked up but loaded (full mag, empty chamber, safety on). As soon as you deploy it, rack one into the chamber and take the safety off. Abide by the four fundamental rules of firearm safety. Last edited by R1145; July 23, 2009 at 11:34 PM.

July 5, 2009, 03:41 AM	#51
LanceOregon Junior member Join Date: May 10, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,774	The Tristar semi-auto is a pretty decent deal. Here is a review where the shotgun was soaked with water and then frozen, and then test fired with ice all over it: http://www.gunblast.com/images/TriStar/TriStar.wmv The CZ Model 712 is very similar, and I like it better because it has a chromed bolt, and chrome lined chamber and barrel. It is actually also a little less expensive, though both are very affordable. -

July 5, 2009, 05:22 PM	#53
A_McDougal Member Join Date: May 1, 2009 Posts: 48	deleted

July 12, 2009, 12:24 AM	#55
Cruncher Block Member Join Date: December 11, 2008 Posts: 63	A shotgun training course made me wish I had a reliable semi instead of a pump. There's a lot to be said for one-handed operation. Nevertheless, I still have my 870. Bottom line is I am used to it and it works. That and I'm a cheapskate, too. I don't keep a house gun with a round in the chamber. After careful consideration, that's just where I personally landed on the safety vs. readiness scale. I considered the presence of kids in the home as well as the state of my motor skills and situational awareness when waking up startled. As far as giving away my position by racking the gun, anyone choosing to forcefully come into my home could easily guess where I am. Stealth and surprise will not be in my favor, racked gun or not. In the "bump in the night" scenario, I've decided there is danger in (a) looking for someone and (b) thinking that someone doesn't know where I am. It seems more practical to chamber a round, get somewhere safe, call the police, and issue a strong verbal command to get out of my house.

July 12, 2009, 12:45 AM	#56
Skan21 Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2009 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 463	Here's my problem with this debate. All shotguns have to be loaded, right? Unless you keep a shotgun with a round in the chamber in your house. Which I don't. Unless the firearm in question is in my possesion at all times, like a ccw, I don't leave a firearm at redcon 1. That's silly, and it's waiting for an accident to happen. I leave my Mossberg 500 with a full mag under my bed. Well, until my son gets old enough for me to be worried about him working the pump. Then it goes in the safe. And I'll use the bioscan safe next to my bed to get my pistol. A semi auto is still going to make noice when you pull the bolt back and let it go forward to chamber a round. Just sayin.

July 12, 2009, 10:36 AM	#59
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	A regular maintenance/inspection schedule of probably the most important weapon/weapons(whichever is your preference) we own will cure the gas seal 'dry-rot' issue or insure our pump, semi-auto handgun or revolver will function when its mostly needed. These weapons should get the best care of all we own!

July 12, 2009, 09:12 PM	#60
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Concerning the noise of racking a pump giving away one's position,here it will precede firing a round or more by a fraction of a second. Well below reaction time IF you know what you're doing. And if you don't now, shoot until you can.....

July 13, 2009, 10:28 AM	#62
Brigadier Member Join Date: June 3, 2009 Posts: 32	Question for those that like to rack a round into the chamber of your pump to scare away the home invader: Do you keep your semiauto pistol in the same condition and have to rack the slide before engaging the home invader? The way I look at it, if the home invader is inside the house, several of my other security measures have failed, and it is way past time to make the weapon ready for combat. It should have been ready beforehand. And as for the rules of safety: "Keep every gun unloaded until ready to use". Well, my shotgun beside my bed for HD IS being used, and should therefore be fully loaded. DA revolvers are quiet, but handguns suck for defense. Give me a long gun any day. The only time I used a handgun for my primary HD weapon was when my kids were small enough I could carry them. That way if needed, I could carry them with one arm and fight with the other. Now that they are too big for that, give me the power of a 12 ga.

July 24, 2009, 08:00 AM	#65
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	Feh. Software trumps hardware. If you hit what you shoot at, if you have mastered operating the gun and if the gun runs 100%, it matters little what mechanism is employed in its operation. lpl