am I stoopid?

[tahunua001]

hello all,
so here's the deal. once upon a time I decided I was going to try out a bunch of cheapo pistols and see if they really could serve a utilitarian purpose to a person who couldn't afford a decent entry level model. among the guns I purchased was a Canik TP9. I loved the ergonomics of that thing and it looked cool. the worksmanship seemed top notch for a $325 pistol and I was happy...


...until I shot it. the dang thing hit everywhere and the sights were horribly misaligned from the factory. the trigger was heavy, even after several hundred dry fires and a couple hundred rounds down range. I took it out again and again because I really did want to like it but eventually I ended up trading it off. I had other reservations besides accuracy but nothing really worth going into now.

fast forward to the reason for my original question. I see now that canik has supposedly refined the TP9 by quite a bit. there is now a TP9 SF which rather than the extremely heavy DA/DA trigger of the original TP9, has a SAO trigger, and gets rid of the stupid decocker which I find to be a horrible idea for a striker gun. so once again I find myself smitten with a cheapo pistol, that I probably shouldn't get but all the fanboys claim is awesome. so question, am I going a little simple here? am I missing anything?

[Old Bill Dibble]

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me......

[tahunua001]

kind of my worry.

[TunnelRat]

gets rid of the stupid decocker which I find to be a horrible idea for a striker gun

On the DA/SA variant it's fine. On the variants where it renders the pistol inoperable until the slide is manipulated I'd agree with you.

[DubC-Hicks]

The TP9SF keeps tempting me as well. I've gone and handled one numerous times. The trigger is great, I'd put it on par with a P320, maybe a tad spongier. But not much. MAC did a torture test on it, handled it better than a VP9, surprisingly. I'll be getting one, just not sure when.

[marine6680]

I kind of want the gen two version of the TP9.

Mostly because it is a P99 clone, but cheaper. More of wanting an oddball DA/SA striker pistol just to have it kind of thing

Most people seem to like them well enough. Though the SF has more people excited.

[45Gunner]

Any gun is better than no gun. However, if you are looking for a nice shooting, reliable gun, even at the entry level, I would be inclined to save my pennies and buy something that has no reliability issues and has a good reputation.

[sigarms228]

Consider the SIG SP2022. On sale for $400 at times. Very proven design.

I have seen the M&P Compact for around $430 at places. Another proven design.

Though I don't know much about the Ruger American, it my also be a good choice at around $400 I believe.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by marine6680

...TP9...is a P99 clone, but cheaper.

FWIW it's better characterized as a lookalike. The two pistols are significantly different internally.

[marine6680]

I'm mostly thinking about the trigger system being a DA/SA type of deal.

As far as reliability, all reports I have seen say the TP9 is a accurate and reliable pistol.

[briandg]

Nothing is stoopider than a fanboy. They are irrational and they deny all possible bits of reality and truth. information is to be ignored unless it supports their prejudices. fanboys want what they want. history is nothing but secondary, hearsay, aprocryphal information, whatever, but essentially meaningless.

Fanboys believe that william shatner deserves an oscar, steven king deserves a pulitzer, and plastic light sabers are the next best thing to sliced white bread.

would you take advice from someone who yells at you if you disagree? If they stick their fingers in their ears and whistle the theme from terminator if they hear something that they really don't like but they know that it's true?

I would trust anybody before I'd trust the guy who's on facebook raving that he found a fly in his fries and how much mcdonalds sucks beyond all possible reason.

[gc70]

Originally Posted by tahunua001

so question, am I going a little simple here? am I missing anything?

You might be going a little simple if you too readily believe the ravings of the fanboys.

You might be missing something if you think or expect every, most, or nearly any new cheapo pistol is going to perform as well as proven and more expensive guns.

There are always cheapo pistols that represent good value and utility ... as long as you don't expect them to meet standards that can only be achieved with substantially more expense.

[michael t]

The money you wasted on 1 pistol and now thinking of maybe getting burnt a 2nd time could have bought a good pistol. So you have saved nothing.

I got a cheap KelTec PF-9 that I can shoot rings around my Kahr 9mm and over a 1000 trouble rounds.
Try a different make. Bersa has a good 9UC pistol DA/SA

[tahunua001]

good thread so far

haha, ok here's a bunch of random thoughts and responses in no particular order or organization.

1. not really interested in the sig, although I find it hilarious that a fellow mentioned the sig because one of the user reviews on the Tp9 SF on budsguns is a rant about elitist sig fanboys lol. with that said, this is not really something I'm after because I need a new gun, it's because I really am curious about a lot of the oddities that you don't see every day at the range, especially if it's something that a fellow could recommend to a starving college student or someone without the luxury of making larger purchases.

2. pricing, $325 is just a guestimate, most of the people online are selling it for about $370 or so or list MSRP for right about that range. the Ruger American series in my area averages a little above $450, as do a lot of the other entry level guns like the Ruger SR series, sigs, plain jane springfield xds etc. canik is a little more in line with the S&W shield, Ruger E series, and keltec, in terms of price bracket.

3. this topic is mostly addressing the SAO variant, specifically the SF variant which does not have the decocker.

4. as for no reports on innacurate specimens, well you can add one to the list now

5. I agree with the koolaid crowd, anti fanboy sentiment, however a lot of people consider me a member of one of those because I like XDMs more than any of the other plastic wonders, so I can't really comment. although I will back up a lot of my arguments for the XDM with facts rather than opinions, feelings, and... dare I say, the word "austria".

6. I personally did not buy cheap pistols to save a dollar, I bought them solely for research purposes to see if I would recommend them to others to save a dollar, kindof jumping on the grenade for people who aren't wearing a bomb suit as it were. of 3 different cheap pistols I purchased, there is one that I would recommend to a person strapped for cash and that is the Ruger 9E. I picked mine up for 299 at sportsmans whorehouse during a recent sale, I've hit steel at 200 yards with it, it's so far failed to hiccup on any of the ammo I've fed it, and I've so far used it to train at least one individual in the use of handguns and did so quite effectively in my overinflated opinion.

7. yes, after I calculate the $700 I wasted buying 2 useless handguns, I might as well have gone out and bought another XDM... or, since I have already owned 3 of them and know what they are generally capable of, where the heck is the fun in getting another one?

[gbclarkson]

My local Rural King occasionally sells SCCYs for $209. After I passed on the last $209 sale I told myself that I would get one if it were ever that cheap again. Why not?... its only $209. When they went back on sale I hesitated. I probably wouldn't like the heavy trigger; even though they have great warranty support I have read of problems. But at $209, why not? When I went back to buy it the sale was over. Next time (I will probably go through the same cycle).

[jdr99a]

I own a tp9sf (unlike some of the other commenters here). I also own a dozen or more other handguns - all of which are more expensive than the tp9sf. My canik has a better trigger than any striker fired trigger I've ever owned or shot - including the p320, glocks, m&ps, xds etc. It has been 100% reliable with everything I've put through it (more than I can say about some of my glocks, 1911s, m&ps).

I bought it for much the same reason tahuna did - research on cheaper guns. That plus the fact that I had the new gun itch and only had $350 in my pocket.

I would recommend the gun to anyone looking for a full size 9mm handgun. It represents a great value. Again, this coming from someone who actually owns one.

[tahunua001]

good info to have. I do have some questions for you though since you actually own one.

1. what all comes with the SF as far as factory goodies? if it comes with the paddle holster like the original tp9 did, have they improved the design any? the original paddle holster with the retention button was a neat design but the clips to hold the holster in place were way too small and didn't offer enough resistance to keep the holster from drawing along with the handgun.

2. do you know of anyone currently making aftermarket holsters for the TP9sf?

[gc70]

The TP9SF product description at Century Arms covers what comes with the gun, as well as providing links to a bunch of reviews.

I toyed with buying the earlier TP9, but was not impressed with the value proposition at that time. The Walther P99 was about $500, the TP9 was around $350, and I chose the Magnum Research MR9 for $400. The $350 TP9 was a reasonable imitation of the P99, but the $400 MR9 was a P99 with an MRI barrel and slide.

[Chainsaw.]

Thisvaint politics, a firearm is a pretty simple machine, therefore its pretty simple to make improvements. Cadillacs of the 60s and 70s were worn the &@$# out at 100,000 miles, but Cadillacs of today certainly dont get cursed for the same issues of today now do they? See what Im gettimg at? Ive heard lots of good things about the news ones, do some reading, watch some videos, go fondle a few.

[tahunua001]

the problem is that for a machine to be improved, a company has to
1. admit that there is a design issue, which many are not willing to do so unless they develop a poor reputation. also the greatest and most common bias of businesses is to continue to fund a product or service even when there is no profit to be had, because they are emotionally invested in the product or service. (think Ruger's recall of 30,000 SR9s vs remington's recall of 5 Million model 700s)

2. they have to decide whether the issue is something that they are willing to spend money on to correct. this can be something as simple as simply finding another parts supplier in some cases, but for most arms manufacturers, it means completely reinventing the product and the manufacturing process.

3. the company also wants to decide if they want to differentiate themselves on a cost-savings basis or a quality basis (think delta airlines vs southwest airlines). as the canik's business strategy seems to center around cost savings, it is a pretty large stretch to assume that they have increased quality at all, so really, the best a person could hope for would be a change in features, rather than a change in quality or durability.

[hornetguy]

I have a TP9 SA. It has been functionally flawless. No failures of any kind. I've probably only got 300-400 rounds through it so far, but they have been trouble free. Accuracy is very good.

The only flaw in the gun was the height of the front sight. It was too short, making the gun shoot high... approximately 2-3" high at 7 yards.

I solved it by buying a CZ front sight that was quite a bit too tall, and filing it down to get my point of aim/impact together. The CZ sight required a little "southern engineering" to attach, as the Canik sight was pinned in place. The CZ sight had no holes drilled for pins, so I measured as closely as I could, and drilled a pilot hole in the sight to try to match the pin hole in the frame. I gradually enlarged the hole until it matched the hole in the frame. I then enlarged the hole in the sight enough to tap a 4-40 thread in it. I used a half-dog point set screw in the sight, and screwed it down until the dog point went into the hole in the frame, locking the sight in place. Seems to have worked pretty well.

The decocker is an absolute non-issue. It would be virtually impossible to "accidentally" decock the pistol. It takes a definite effort to press it down to decock.

I really like the gun so far... almost exactly the same size as a Glock 17, holds 17 rounds, and has an excellent single action trigger pull.... with a very short reset... probably less than 1/16".

If the SF is as good as the SA, get it. Sounds like your first one was a rare lemon. Nearly all the reviews I've read on the Canik have been better than positive....

[briandg]

I went around the block with this discussion several times. Consensus was that I'm an idiot.

No matter what the circumstances, any gun that fails for whatever reason needs to be sent to the manufacturer. I don't care if you pounded it full of bullseye or filled the barrel with beeswax, the manufacturer needs to see what happened. Let the maker decide what to do, see what happened, decide what caused it to happen.

A gun should not fail if used in normal circumstances, and even then, there must be some extra edge built in. If it passes a proof load, a slight increase in max pressures above accepted levels should not lead to catastrophic failure. The company needs to see what has happened, and they need to keep track of these failures, or they won't know hat is going on.

Wanna hear stoopid? a company here offers to carve pretty pictures into the handle of a glock. Deeply carved engravings with laser or other machinery. They will even skeletonize the thing.

Stoopid? come on, you morons, the frame of a glock is PLASTIC, and cutting out even a fraction of it or shooting with a crack is going to weaken the thing accordingly.

So, skeletonize your .40 glock, handload it, blow out a case, and will your hand survive? Boy, that's a good question. High temperature flames, chunks of plastic blown into the tissues, sounds like a night in paradise. Should you send the thing in to glock? Oh, absolutely. Those boys need a laugh once in a while. It will also give them a bit of information that they need. The manual already says that these things should not be altered, now they have the information that drilling big holes in them is a stoopid idea.

[sureshot106]

[tahunua001]

I'm sorry... but I'm lost now.

[Big Shrek]

Geez, if you want a reliable CZ clone that isn't a CZ...
don't go to Canik, go old-school

Star Firestar Plus
AKA the Model 243, OEM mags are 13 rounds,
also uses S&W 5900-series double-stack mags,
including the 33-rd if you feel the need to scare liberals

I just bought a near NIB example in Starvel for $250 last month!
example pic, mine's on layaway...
this pic looks kinda goldish, Starvel is basically a Nickel finish.