45-70 Gov't Load Question

[LuckyInKentucky]

I am fairly new to handloading, and was wondering if some of the more seasoned reloaders could answer my question.

Can the 45-70 Gov't cartridge be reloaded with a custom .458 diamater 150gr. lead-round nose bullet? Using a 'medium' or average powder charge of course.

The reason being, I was wanting to get a little more out of the average 200 meter range from my Marlin 1895. Of course I know that the heavier 300 and 405 grain bullets inhibit the range on these particular loads, and was wanting to get around a 300 meter range from my rifle.

For experimental purposes, could it be done safely, or would I have to use a 'wad' type cartridge under the 150gr. bullet?

[steveno]

a 150 grain 45-70 isn't going to be much longer than it is wide. it will lose it's velocity very fast and be inferior to any 300 or 400 grain bullet at any range. considering the trajectory of any 45-70 load , the 45-70 is at best a 200 yard load and preferably 150 yards. it is not a 300 yard round in my opinion

[LuckyInKentucky]

Well, that is a little arguable, in my opinion. For instance, I have a Quigley Sharps that is an easy 1000 yd. rifle with Lyman sites, but my 1895 on the other hand, is 'challenged' in the barrel length department (18.5 inches). Now, with my Sharps I have gotten ahold of 250gr. 'Long Range Competition' loads but don't want to spend $2.50 a cartridge on my hunting rifle. So, I was wondering if I could use my bullet mold to make 150gr bullets for it without any dangers of overcharging or stressing the cartridge.

If it is safe, I can test it and post my results. But, I think I could easily get an extra 50 to 100 yds out of a lighter bullet.

[steveno]

there is a difference in what you choose to use it for. as a hunting cartridge it is still a 200 yard round. if you are going to shoot in games that is a different story

[LuckyInKentucky]

Oh, sorry I didn't specify.

I will be using the 150Gr for target shooting. I use 500gr. Magnum loads for hunting Elk and Black Bear and 300gr. magnum loads for hunting deer.

Would I be able to use the magnum load on a 150gr bullet to give it that extra push? Or, should I stick with the medium charges?

[Johnny Guest]

I wish I had more reference works at hand. What steveno said about as wide as long - - It'd be darn near a round ball, wouldn't it? At best, it'd look like the conical ball from the old Colt percussion moulds.

I seriously doubt you'd get any extra range from such a light bullet. The sectional density/ballistic coefficient would be seriously out of whack for any kind of higher velocity load. You might get decent accuracy with LIGHT loads, but only at shorter range. There's also the matter of the rifling twist rate in the Marlin '95 being wrong for round balls or the near equivalent.

The entire concept just "sounds wrong" to me, but I've never experimented with it myownself, so I could well be mistaken. I haven't been seriously in error in a week or so . . . . I'd be interested in the type of loads you come up with, and the testing results.

Best,
Johnny

[Jim Watson]

The old collar button 180 grain bullet was for 50 foot to 50 yard practice. You are not going to increase the accurate range of a .45-70 by going to a ligher bullet, your Sharps ought to be telling you that. I don't know who is selling 250 grain so called long range competition loads, but he is nuts. Long range target loads in .45-70 START at 500 grains and go up from there.

The Marlin might MIGHT do ok with a 300 grain jacketed bullet and a good stout load, but it might not. I don't know what to do to make an 18" carbine shoot well at 300 metres.

[Johnny Guest]

Thank you, Jim Watson. I couldn't think of that very descriptive term for a lead bullet which is very short in relation to its diameter, and with a wide, deep lubrication groove. It actually does faintly resemble the old collar-securing device.

Johnny

[MADISON]

A 150 grain round for 45-70 is a joke!!!
The lightest bullet weight I know of and have shot is a 300 grain Hornady HP.
I used 20 grains of 2400 with it. It's group was about 2 1/2 inches but, it DIDN'T TAKE MY SHOLDER OFF.

[LuckyInKentucky]

Well, I did try it earlier today. I used a mag. load with a 170gr. lead flat nosed bullet (kind of funny lookin' after I made it) instead of the 150gr. But actually, it did work. I got a 3" group at 350yds. Shooting 5 rounds consecutively. Actually after making the bullets from my bullet caster, they resembled the old rifled bullets used in Civil War era muskets.

Although, I do believe the charge was a little too hot for the soft lead because I got excessive lead deposits in the barrel. I might try toning down the charge a few grains next time. Or, maybe using a harder lead than what I use for my 45 LongColt bullets.

This does go to show that the lighter bullets can travel.

[Jim Watson]

Ned Buntline is alive and well in Kentucky.

[LuckyInKentucky]

Honestly, I don't know whether to take that as a compliment or an insult! If you are calling me a storyteller, well friend, you really don't know me then do you?

[Johnny Guest]

LuckyInKentucky -- Nobody's calling you a liar - - Just expressing amazement at some of your statements. Clearly, some of the stuff you're talking about goes well beyond what is "normally" acepted as possible with the rifle and bullets you mention.

Let me see - - You're using a Marlin with an 18.5" barrel, right? Firing soft lead 170 gr. bullets with "a mag. load" of an unspecified powder?

Actually after making the bullets from my bullet caster, they resembled the old rifled bullets used in Civil War era muskets.

I was wondering if I could use my bullet mold to make 150gr bullets for it

Are you talking about using some kind of adjustable bullet mould? Do you size the bullets, or shoot 'em as cast? Do you lubricate them, or perhaps paper patch them?

As mentioned above, long range loads for the big bore rifles tend to require HEAVY bullets, not light ones. Yes, it is possible to shoot very well at long ranges with the old black powder cartridges - - Much of the difficulty in doing so has to do with the modest velocities yielding a very arched trajectory. At known distances and with proper sights, it is possible to do some good work "way out yonder."

Shooting a sub-minute-of-angle group beyond 300 yards -- beyond 200, really -- with such gear as you mention is a tremendous feat. It is pretty noteworthy to do it with a modern .30 caliber rifle and jacketed ammo. With specialized match rifles, okay, but with a hunting type rig? Wow.

May I ask about your magnum powder charge and the sighting gear on your rifle? I have a .45-70 Marlin Guide Gun and would like to learn some of these techniques.

Best,
Johnny

[JohnKSa]

A lead ball of 45/70 bore diameter weighs 144.3 grains. If you don't mind my asking, where are you finding bullets or molds for bullets that weigh less than 6 grains more than a lead ball of caliber size? I can't find anything anywhere near that light for a rifle.

Are these bullets you use in your .45LC?

[brokenfeather]

JohnKSa:
A few years ago Lyman reproduced their old 457130 dies again in a short run. I purchased one of them and the batch of bullet I got run around 144.3 grains. They are what is refered to as the collar button bullets. As some one already said they were used as a short range bullet. I have a friend that loads them for his 45 acp. I haven't loaded any yet but plan to do so this spring.
I recently aquired a Lyman handloading book(#41) from 1957 and the bullet is listed in it. Just for what it's worth
Don

[griz]

If you can't describe the mold or even tell what powder you used for the 3 inch 350 yard group, I'll call you a story teller.

Yes a 170 grain bullet can go that far. I don't believe you got that group at that range, and that's not the end of my doubts.

[44-40]

I have cast, reloaded, and owned several 45-70's, bullets of less than 300 grains are new to me???I can't believe a bullet that is as long as it is wide would be worth spit.I dont think an 18 inch carbine was meant for a long range shooter anyway.I'm assuming if you have a sharps that shoots out to 1000 yds that you have been to a few shoots, I have, and I've never seen a lever gun at one.

[drinks]

I do use a 210gr .45 bullet, I add a gas check, use 4227, get 1500 fps and use it for tin cans and rabbits to MAYBE 50 yds just for a plinker, it drops like a rock after 75 yds and has the BC of a brick.
When I shoot at measured distances, I use a 515gr I add a gas check to and get 1400fps with IMR 4198, even with a BC of .443, it still drops 38" at 250 yds when sighted in at 100 yds.
Could I use it in 1000yd shooting, yes, but with some real elevation and a lot of practice.
Don

[mete]

As Elmer Keith said , the 45-70 can be loaded with anything from round ball to the heaviest bullet. But of course the round ball would be strictly for things like rabbit or plinking!

[Leftoverdj]

I've shot .490 RBs that had been run through a .459 sizer in a .45-70 Handy. They come out a little heavier than your proposed 150 grain bullets and are small game loads at best. Push them much over 1000 fps and they strip.

[Superhornet]

LUCKY---what is a 45-70 magnum load ?? Show me your data for the 300/500 grain magnum elk, bear and deer loads. If you can shoot that good with a 170 grain bullet that will have the BC of a rock, you may be another SGT. York...show the data....I have loaded for the 45-70 since 1949 and have shot some very good groups at 200 yards using both lead and jacketed bullets, but all of these were over 405 grains..Show me also the powder load for the 170 grain LIK homemade bullet...

[Keltecnician]

I hate to pile on here, but I have loaded .45-70 since the 1970s. The lightest bullet I have found reliably accurate at any real distance is 250 grains.
Maybe LIK meant to say 35 yards?

[BluesBear]

Anyone so inept as to wonder if shooting a 150gr bullet from a cartridge designed for a 405gr bullet would be dangerous "Using a 'medium' or average powder charge of course" has no business reloading. :barf:


I'd also be interested in seeing photos of the products from his "bullet caster".
Especially since it seems he procured his "custom .458 diamater 150gr. lead-round nose bullet" in less than 30 hours.


And having been born and raised (41 years) in Kentucky he is the ONLY person I know from "the hills" that shoots any game in "meters". When I was there Ky was still part of America and we shot stuff at YARDS.


And I am still thrying to figure out just what in the heck "a 'wad' type cartridge" for under the bullet is.

[LuckyInKentucky]

I am sorry for the troubles! I have been away from home on my wife's Spring Break and my brother was watching the house while I was gone. He told me that he got me in a fix but i thought he was joking. Too much time on his hands. THere is no way, I could shoot that good if I wanted to. I am new to reloading, and was only wondering if it would work. Sorry for the troubles.

[Superhornet]

Lucky--it was no trouble.....in a civilized debate or discussion we all learn something new...ho ho ho