45/70- Blackpowder & Smokeless? Newbie-type question, pls forgive...

Jorah Lavin · February 3, 2002, 01:59 PM

I thought I'd heard once that, since the 45/70 started life as a black powder cartridge, that it was possible to reload either way, and shoot either from the same gun.

Is this realistic, and if so, where would I find load data on doing so? I was drooling over the Marlin 9-shot 45/70 lever-action rifle just now, and thought it would be cool to be able to shoot either style of loading.

Also, if this is true, are there any other such cartridges that can "bat left or right," so to speak?

-Jorah

**Mike Irwin** · February 3, 2002, 03:34 PM

Yes. I know more than just a few people who load both.

Most shoot BP in their Trapdoor Springfields and smokeless in their Marlins or Browning repop 1886s, though.

In a lever action you have to be really careful about cleaning the action with BP.

Essentially, you put enough BP in the case so that when the bullet is seated there is a slight charge compression.

There are some good books on reloading BP, it can be kind of tricky.

Jorah Lavin · February 3, 2002, 04:15 PM

Any 45/70 is off in the distance, somewhere past my Garand, my SP101, and my first shotgun... but knowing this sort of thing is very helpful to me as I brood over future purchases.

So, if I end up wanting to switch back and forth, maybe a single-shot would be fun to start with; maybe an NEF?

I'll look around online for books on BP cartridge reloading. My instinct is that, with the popularity of Cowboy Action, there will be plenty to read.

-Jorah

Kaboom · February 3, 2002, 04:46 PM

Jorah get a copy of the Lyman 47th edition reloading handbook. Shows smokless and BP loads for several bullets. The NEF's are a fine rifle. I have one and am thinking about one of the H&R buffalo classic rifles. Basically the same but with a 32 inch barrel. Lots of fun to be had here and mine shoots very well no matter if I use lead or jacketed bullets. Haven't tried the BP yet but who knows.

dick w. holliday · February 4, 2002, 05:18 AM

i've got a Browning highwall single shot with tang sight and all that stuff and i shoot smokless sometimes and if i'm not in a hurry i'll shoot black powder......the guys i know that shoot black powder in lever guns wash out the actions with balistol or some type spray cleaner after shooting them.....Dick

Gewehr98 · February 4, 2002, 10:01 AM

are cast .45/70 handloads, using a case full of FFg blackpowder and an Ox-Yoke Wonder Wad under the 405gr bullet.

I cheat, though, there's 5 grains of WW231 against the primer before the main charge of FFg gets drop-tubed in there.

**Mike Irwin** · February 4, 2002, 11:02 AM

"I cheat, though, there's 5 grains of WW231 against the primer before the main charge of FFg gets drop-tubed in there."

Boostering can make a HUGE difference in the how clean the black powder burns. It is, in my experience, a night and day difference.

Redneck2 · February 6, 2002, 08:04 PM

I'd get REAL exotic and use....let's see...a 45 caliber bullet, and 70 grains of black powder

Gewehr98 · February 6, 2002, 09:26 PM

That with todays thicker and smaller internal capacity .45/70 brass, you're gonna get a full 70 grains of FFg behind the seated bullet. Maybe a 300 grain bullet, but not the standard 405 grain or heavier bullets. When I load pure blackpowder rounds, I got up to 65 grains of FFg, and there was a LOT of powder compression, even after drop-tubing the stuff into the case and skipping the under-bullet wad. About the only good thing to say for the ancient balloon-headed brass is it had a larger case capacity for blackpowder.

Redneck2 · February 8, 2002, 07:36 AM

There was an article in Handloader a few issues ago about using black powder. Very extensive. Also as stated, the loads near the original ones had extreme compression.

As noted above, black powder is quite corrosive. Now obviously it was used successfully in repeaters for a number of years, just be aware that it's very dirty and very corrosive.

If you're interested in this type thing (I assume you are or you wouldn't be at this forum), I'd suggest a subscription to Handloader.

C.R.Sam · February 8, 2002, 12:00 PM

Read all you can get your hands on.

Pay particular attention to the safe handling and storage of black powder. It is not as forgiving as smokeless.

Balloon head cases were treasured before the .357mag came out in 1935. Heavy frame .38special heavy loads were the test bed for the mag cartridge. Same with balloon head .44specials.

Balloon heads are weaker and require a stronger chamber for stout loads. But they do hold a significantly larger charge of powder.

Sam

radom · February 9, 2002, 02:34 AM

I am not that sure that black powder in its self is corrosive. I think it was mostly the old corrosive primers that left lots of salts in the powder gunk that was so corrosive. I do not recomend doing this but have left guns dirty till the gunk dried out just to see if they would rust,none of them did. I also use a small amout of unique powder under the black in the case guns and as Mike did say it does make a HUGE differance. You get a real stinky clorine type stench out of the smoke but the gun is a lot cleaner. I also recomend using a drop tube for charging as it will make a big differance too. I usualy prefer the smokless loads as they are less stress on old guns, you can hit black load velocity with a lot less chamber pressure and the brass lasts a lot longer too.

T. O'Heir · February 13, 2002, 02:39 PM

DO NOT just stuff a case full and hammer in a bullet. Use proper reloading procedure just like you would with smokeless.

Salt · February 16, 2002, 04:01 PM

Petroleum based lubricants will make fouling worse on a gun when using the original gunpowder. You should only use natural lubricants (50/50 beeswax & Crisco) or use a commercial BP lubricant like Thompsen Center's Borebutter(TM).

http://www.tcarms.com/mlaccessories/.../73097409.html

Redneck2 said that BP loads are corrosive, which is true if you do not clean your gun at the end of the day. Use hot soap & water, wipe dry, then lube with TC's Borebutter(TM) to "season' the shooting iron.

I never had any problems with "corrosive" BP loads because I keep my guns clean.

50-110 · February 16, 2002, 05:15 PM

The 45-70 and BP is a match made in heaven.
Definately don't use a petroleum based lube on your bullets with BP, It creates one heck of a mess to clean up. I use a home made lube and borebutter. As far as using BP in a lever action, you have to be extra carefull in cleaning or it will gum up the action fast.
I shoot both a lever 44WCF and a Sharps replica single shot 45-70.

February 3, 2002, 01:59 PM	#1
Jorah Lavin Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 1999 Location: Indian Land, SC USA Posts: 593	45/70- Blackpowder & Smokeless? Newbie-type question, pls forgive... I thought I'd heard once that, since the 45/70 started life as a black powder cartridge, that it was possible to reload either way, and shoot either from the same gun. Is this realistic, and if so, where would I find load data on doing so? I was drooling over the Marlin 9-shot 45/70 lever-action rifle just now, and thought it would be cool to be able to shoot either style of loading. Also, if this is true, are there any other such cartridges that can "bat left or right," so to speak? -Jorah __________________ I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit... it's the only way to be sure.

February 3, 2002, 03:34 PM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Yes. I know more than just a few people who load both. Most shoot BP in their Trapdoor Springfields and smokeless in their Marlins or Browning repop 1886s, though. In a lever action you have to be really careful about cleaning the action with BP. Essentially, you put enough BP in the case so that when the bullet is seated there is a slight charge compression. There are some good books on reloading BP, it can be kind of tricky. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 3, 2002, 04:15 PM	#3
Jorah Lavin Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 1999 Location: Indian Land, SC USA Posts: 593	Thanks, Mike Any 45/70 is off in the distance, somewhere past my Garand, my SP101, and my first shotgun... but knowing this sort of thing is very helpful to me as I brood over future purchases. So, if I end up wanting to switch back and forth, maybe a single-shot would be fun to start with; maybe an NEF? I'll look around online for books on BP cartridge reloading. My instinct is that, with the popularity of Cowboy Action, there will be plenty to read. -Jorah __________________ I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit... it's the only way to be sure.

February 4, 2002, 05:18 AM	#5
dick w. holliday Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2001 Location: NC Posts: 589	i go either way in mine i've got a Browning highwall single shot with tang sight and all that stuff and i shoot smokless sometimes and if i'm not in a hurry i'll shoot black powder......the guys i know that shoot black powder in lever guns wash out the actions with balistol or some type spray cleaner after shooting them.....Dick

February 4, 2002, 10:01 AM	#6
Gewehr98 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2000 Location: Token Creek, WI Posts: 4,067	Heck, some of the best groups out of my Ruger #1 are cast .45/70 handloads, using a case full of FFg blackpowder and an Ox-Yoke Wonder Wad under the 405gr bullet. I cheat, though, there's 5 grains of WW231 against the primer before the main charge of FFg gets drop-tubed in there. __________________ "Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round... Neural Misfires

February 3, 2002, 04:46 PM	#4
Kaboom Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2000 Location: North Mo. Posts: 640	Jorah get a copy of the Lyman 47th edition reloading handbook. Shows smokless and BP loads for several bullets. The NEF's are a fine rifle. I have one and am thinking about one of the H&R buffalo classic rifles. Basically the same but with a 32 inch barrel. Lots of fun to be had here and mine shoots very well no matter if I use lead or jacketed bullets. Haven't tried the BP yet but who knows.

February 4, 2002, 11:02 AM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"I cheat, though, there's 5 grains of WW231 against the primer before the main charge of FFg gets drop-tubed in there." Boostering can make a HUGE difference in the how clean the black powder burns. It is, in my experience, a night and day difference. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 6, 2002, 08:04 PM	#8
Redneck2 Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2000 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 519	If you're going to use "black" I'd get REAL exotic and use....let's see...a 45 caliber bullet, and 70 grains of black powder

February 6, 2002, 09:26 PM	#9
Gewehr98 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2000 Location: Token Creek, WI Posts: 4,067	Redneck, that's assuming... That with todays thicker and smaller internal capacity .45/70 brass, you're gonna get a full 70 grains of FFg behind the seated bullet. Maybe a 300 grain bullet, but not the standard 405 grain or heavier bullets. When I load pure blackpowder rounds, I got up to 65 grains of FFg, and there was a LOT of powder compression, even after drop-tubing the stuff into the case and skipping the under-bullet wad. About the only good thing to say for the ancient balloon-headed brass is it had a larger case capacity for blackpowder. __________________ "Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round... Neural Misfires

February 8, 2002, 07:36 AM	#10
Redneck2 Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2000 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 519	Actually, If you want a better answer... There was an article in Handloader a few issues ago about using black powder. Very extensive. Also as stated, the loads near the original ones had extreme compression. As noted above, black powder is quite corrosive. Now obviously it was used successfully in repeaters for a number of years, just be aware that it's very dirty and very corrosive. If you're interested in this type thing (I assume you are or you wouldn't be at this forum), I'd suggest a subscription to Handloader.

February 8, 2002, 12:00 PM	#11
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Read all you can get your hands on. Pay particular attention to the safe handling and storage of black powder. It is not as forgiving as smokeless. Balloon head cases were treasured before the .357mag came out in 1935. Heavy frame .38special heavy loads were the test bed for the mag cartridge. Same with balloon head .44specials. Balloon heads are weaker and require a stronger chamber for stout loads. But they do hold a significantly larger charge of powder. Sam

February 9, 2002, 02:34 AM	#12
radom Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 1,357	I am not that sure that black powder in its self is corrosive. I think it was mostly the old corrosive primers that left lots of salts in the powder gunk that was so corrosive. I do not recomend doing this but have left guns dirty till the gunk dried out just to see if they would rust,none of them did. I also use a small amout of unique powder under the black in the case guns and as Mike did say it does make a HUGE differance. You get a real stinky clorine type stench out of the smoke but the gun is a lot cleaner. I also recomend using a drop tube for charging as it will make a big differance too. I usualy prefer the smokless loads as they are less stress on old guns, you can hit black load velocity with a lot less chamber pressure and the brass lasts a lot longer too.

February 13, 2002, 02:39 PM	#13
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	BP and cases DO NOT just stuff a case full and hammer in a bullet. Use proper reloading procedure just like you would with smokeless.

February 16, 2002, 04:01 PM	#14
Salt Junior member Join Date: December 26, 2001 Posts: 673	Use BP lubes, avoid petroleum lubes for BP loads Petroleum based lubricants will make fouling worse on a gun when using the original gunpowder. You should only use natural lubricants (50/50 beeswax & Crisco) or use a commercial BP lubricant like Thompsen Center's Borebutter(TM). http://www.tcarms.com/mlaccessories/.../73097409.html Redneck2 said that BP loads are corrosive, which is true if you do not clean your gun at the end of the day. Use hot soap & water, wipe dry, then lube with TC's Borebutter(TM) to "season' the shooting iron. I never had any problems with "corrosive" BP loads because I keep my guns clean.

February 16, 2002, 05:15 PM	#15
50-110 Junior Member Join Date: February 16, 2002 Location: Western Kentucky Posts: 3	45-70 and BP The 45-70 and BP is a match made in heaven. Definately don't use a petroleum based lube on your bullets with BP, It creates one heck of a mess to clean up. I use a home made lube and borebutter. As far as using BP in a lever action, you have to be extra carefull in cleaning or it will gum up the action fast. I shoot both a lever 44WCF and a Sharps replica single shot 45-70. __________________ Jack NRA life member NMLRA member