Long Range Precision Rifle Questions.

[Lopti]

Hey guys and gals, so I have some questions and am hoping the more experienced shooters out there can give me their opinions. First I will explain my experience and what I am building this firearm for.

I have always been big into pistols, grown up shooting and collecting pistols however because I am left eye dominate but right handed I have never gotten into rifles. When I lay my head down on the rifle my left eye just sees over the scope rather then right one looking into it, I am working on strengthening my right eye currently to fix this.

I am not planning on using this rifle for hunting, I live in a rural area with mountains and would like to shoot long distances at targets. My end goal is to get out to around 1500 yards, (I fully recognize this is going to take a lot of practice)

So anyway, now that you know what I am going for here is what I am planning, I am planning on getting a Savage Arms 11/111 Long Range Hunter here is a link.

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/m...ONGRANGEHUNTER

I am currently planning on getting it in 308 just because it is highly accessible ammo that I can get high grade for a good price. Am open to opinions on that.

The big thing I need help with is the scope, Here are the two I am currently debating between.

The first is the Leupold 6-18x40 VX-2 Riflescope, Link below.

http://swfa.com/Leupold-6-18x40-VX-2...pe-P51818.aspx

and the second is the Bushnell 4.5-30x50 Elite 6500 30mm Rifle Scope, Link below.

http://swfa.com/Bushnell-45-30x50-El...pe-P10931.aspx

Being a pistol guy I have very little experience with scopes, I have read all I can about them but you can't beat experience which is why I have come here before I make a purchase. If you would not go with either of these please explain why and provide alternatives, what do you see as the pros and cons? etc...

The last question is something I have not yet researched and that is the bi-pod, suggestions?

Thanks in advance for any helpful information or suggestions.

[kraigwy]

Hard to keep a 308 Win super sonic at 1500 yards. They lose it at about 1100 yards.

Look at the 300 WM or one of the fancy 6.5 or .284 rounds.

I'd go with the 300 WM myself. There is match ammo available but reloading would be better.

[handlerer2]

I have built a long range rifle recently, Cooper MDL 22, VLM, 26" HV, 6.5-284, 1in 8.

I chose the Vortex PST 6-24 FFP. I'm delighted with it.

I checked out your choices and I can't bash them. The Leupold, have had a number of them, and no problems, but it is 3 times the price for FFP, and less magnification.

The 6500 Elite is a good scope w/o FFP, with a little more magnification, for the same price as the PST.

In my experience you can't always use max magnification at 1000yds due to heat mirage, or from barrel heating.

That said you won't go wrong with either of your choices, but I think the Leupold is over priced, but very good. Competitive long range shooters have them boosted after market, because of reticle problems, and lash in the power adjustment. The optics have always been very good in my experience.

All of these scopes may use the same glass. So optically it's probably about the same.

I seems to me that you would get the most for your money with the Vortex, but all have excellent warranties.

[MarkCO]

Once you open the box, it is hard to get the lid back on.

Caliber. The .308 is the common sense first cartridge and will give you good barrel life. You can simply re-barrel to a .260 when that time comes. That said, you will want to reload, and I see no reason not to start off with a .260. A little less cost to load, but better ballistics.

Platform. Yep, the Savage again is a good common sense starter. But will you want a chassis system, and do you like what is offered for the Savage as opposed to the Rem700, which many of the customs follow. I would not presume to make your choice, but I would suggest you go shoot some and find a local "mentor" who shoots what you want to shoot. That said, if you get serious, the factory stocks go bye-bye. I only have one factory stock, a 35 year old Black Walnut stock on a Winchester, that is stable enough for precision work past 600 yards. The rest are chassis systems. If you add in a rebarrel, chassis, truing the action, you will quickly see that a custom is actually cheaper. However, if you search, you can likely find a good deal on a used LR rig ready to roll with a good discount. A lot of guys set up rigs, realize the amount of time and effort it takes to get good and then sell off their gear.

Optic. You have made decent choices. I'd lean towards the Bushnell of the two. There are other good choices, one of which I prefer that is the Burris XTRII, either 4-20 or 5-25. I think they have better features and clearer glass.

Bi-pod. Atlas is really good, but a Harris will work fine. There are however, more choices. The 4 of the 5 best groups I have shot have been with a front and rear bag, the other was off a tri-pod. I shot a 4 shot group of 0.11" at 100 yards with my .243 off bags last week. Depending on how and where you will be shooting you can use heavy bags or light bags. I like a heavy front and a light rear frictional squeeze bag. Tri-pods are my second choice and a forearm mounted bi-pod, only when it comes to speed do I prefer them, but still use a rear bag.

Straight behind the gun with a rested natural POA and a loaded bi-pod is the conventional way to be able to shoot the best, consistent groups. Gun weight, stock, optic, technique and rests are all part of the equation, so skimping on one affects the groups...an unfortunate truth.

[Lopti]

Thanks for all the replies keep em coming

I did some research on the ballistics of the .260 Remington cartridge and am now very much leaning towards that... Seems like a great round. I am still researching the scopes you guys have suggested though so if you have any other scope suggestions etc... let me know.

[Bart B.]

If 1500 yards is your long objective, you'll need a 30 caliber cartridge capable of keeping heavy, accurate bullets supersonic that far down range. Which leaves the 30 caliber magnums; preferably without a belt. Their recoil makes them harder to learn to shoot accurately, but they will keep the bullets supersonic that far away in cooler weather.

The .260 Rem's got 2/3 the barrel life of the .308 Win's 3000 rounds and is limited to 1000 yards anyway. The popular 6.5x.284 in 1000 yard competition has an 800-round barrel life. But a 30 caliber magnum that'll do the job has only about 1200 rounds of barrel life. Such is the lifestyle of very long range accuracy afficianados.

A Win. 70 action's near three times stiffer than any Remmy box magazine one and has a much better track record in long range accuracy than any other box magazine rifle.

Put your money into having the receiver face and bolt lugs & face trued up and a quality (Kreiger?) match barrel installed. Cheap wood stocks and medium to low priced fixed power scopes will enable such metalwork to produce near 1/2 MOA accuracy at 1000 yards easily for 20- to 30-shot strings in as many minutes; if good bullets are loaded into properly sized cases.

[MarkCO]

I just went and cruised a few of the forums and found several excellent buys on rigs ready to go, so they are out there.

Here is one, that had the work done by one of only two people I would let work on my personal firearms...

A custom Remington 700 .308 for $850, easily a $1500+ rig all in...

Condition:
-Round count is ~200...
-Very minor marks to the barrel, very good condition.

Specifications:
-Started with a Remington 700 ADL Varmit with 26" bull barrel, 1:12 twist
-Conversion to BDL floorplate and magazine
-Free Float Barrel cut to 22" with 11 degree crown
-B&C Medalist Style 4 1000 stock, skim bedded
-Timney 510 trigger
-Warne bases
-Tac Ops bolt knob
-Plano Airglide Case

[T. O'Heir]

1500 yards will take far more than practice. You'll need in-depth understanding of ballistics and the wind conditions where you plan on shooting. No hunting rifle will be up to it. "Long Range Hunter" is marketing(the link is dead too). You'll need a cu$tom made, heavy barreled, match rifle.
You can forget the .308 for 1500 yards. A factory 175 grain Matchking with a 200 yard zero, drops 51.5" out at 500. A 190 out of a .300 Win Mag or a .338(Lapua or Win) might do it. The Lapua is extremely expensive stuff. Hornady factory runs $118.65US per 20 for match ammo.
Barrel life really means accuracy life. That is different to a hunter than it is to a target shooter. Target shooters think a barrel is no good when it's groups, at range, open a tick. A 1,000 yard target's bull is 24" diameter.

[MarkCO]

Just so the OP understands...

You are getting input from different perspectives, now. The HP and Benchrest guys have a very different way of approaching the topic than those who shoot in say the Precision Rifle Series, or shoot Practical Field type courses, and those are both different from the LR hunter types due to energy requirements.

If I had taken some of the advice from some of the types that answer, I likely would have never tried Precision Rifle, or would have spent so much that I would not have been able to do anything else, including having kids.

I hit 18" plates out to 1200 yards with my .260 (about the edge for consistency), but using the same rig, I limit myself to no more than 700 yards on deer sized game.

Sure, I'd like a .338Lapua too, but to add $10K to be able to shoot an extra 300 or so yards beyond the .260...not in my budgeting.

[Jimro]

I know a few people who shoot 308s out past 1500 on perfectly calm days using bullets that handle the transition through the transonic range nicely.

But really that is pushing a 308 envelope by about 400 yards unless you have the added benefit of high altitude on your side. Down near sea level 1100 is generally about where things get squirrely.

Between the two scopes, I would go with the Bushnell. Some of the F Class shooters have been using it and absolutely love it. The Leupold VX-2 is not generally considered good long range glass, usually you have to step up to the VX-3 line for that.

If you don't handload, the 308 Win makes the most sense for precision rifle unless you have really deep pockets. Just buy a case of Black Hills Match and shoot.

Good luck, the longest shot I've taken was 1,400 meters, but that was with the M107.

Jimro

[Bart B.]

The world standard for long range competition uses the USA Long Range target with a 44" aiming bull that's the 8 ring, a 30 inch 9 ring, a 20 inch 10 ring and a 10 inch X ring. F-Class 1000 yard targets are about half that size. Other country long and range targets are different, but the USA aiming bull's nor high scoring ring's never been 24 inches at any range.

In a recent test of cartridges for sniper rifles, accuracy and first shot hit probability at 1500 yards was topped by the .300 Win Mag. The .338 Lap Mag was dismal; poor accuracy and way too much recoil for precision off-the-shoulder accuracy with any shot; first or last.

In the USA, a common reference indicating when a tack-driving high-quality match barrel's worn out is when it starts shooting about 50% bigger accuracy test groups than when new. That's the same standard Sierra Bullets uses on their test barrels checking their stuff for accuracy. All barrels start loosing accuracy with the first shot fired.

[kraigwy]

I think Bart is talking about my 1000 yard rifle.

Model 70 Win in 300 WM. Douglas Premium 29 in. Barrel, Bishop Stock.

When I was shooting for the Guard I used 200 Gr. SMKs, but there are better bullets out there now.

It sports Redfield Palma sights in the picture but I also use it with the Weaver T-10

[tobnpr]

My .02...
All good advice above.
Since you're inexperienced in this sport, my suggestion is to learn the basics of form, trigger control, and most importantly wind calls on a .308 or .260 if you handload.

You need a lot of trigger time...and you'll burn up a .300 WM barrel-or two- before you've even gained the requisite skills; not to mention the recoil that could possibly affect you as a new shooter.

Once you've got the skill set out to 1000, buy or build the Magnum and stretch it out.

Edit to add on the bipod...
Of course you can't go wrong with Harris. But I've changed out most of ours to the Blackhawk Traversetrack. Swivels side to side, and most importantly allows you to adust the cant of the rifle easily- without having to mess with adjusting the legs to level the rifle on uneven ground (or a bench that's not level). Locks with adjustable friction lever easily in any position.

http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Bi-...,1871,1406.htm

[4runnerman]

AS most have posted-A 308 is not a 1500 yard rifle.Possable-yes,Feasable-No.
308 is maybe 1000 to 1200 yards pushing a 155 gn. Also as others posted,get some trigger time in first. Go for a 223 and work on 500 to 600 yards first. Good barrel life and cheap to reload.

[jehu]

300WM or 338 Lapua in a quality platform,I like the Sako TRG, with a quality optic, I like Nightforce, will get you there. The real secret to shooting the big bore rifles, to have fun is, a good suppressor. Takes out most of the noise and recoil.

[MtnCreek]

You're right handed, left eye and you're wanting to focus on shooting strong hand / weak eye, correct? I can't help there other than to say: confirm you're going about that the right way.

1500yds is a great goal to have, but IMO, don't base you're rifle purchase on that goal. You've got a lot of trigger time ahead of you to get the fundamentals down to allow precision shooting at distance. 308 win, 260 rem (if you reload), 6.5 creedmoor and several others would make a great cartridge to get started with. IMHO, 300 mags shooting 208+ gr bullets, burning 70+grs powder, associated recoil and throat erosion is not a good cartridge to start with.

[Jimro]

In a recent test of cartridges for sniper rifles, accuracy and first shot hit probability at 1500 yards was topped by the .300 Win Mag. The .338 Lap Mag was dismal; poor accuracy and way too much recoil for precision off-the-shoulder accuracy with any shot; first or last.

Could you explain who did the test, and when, and in which platform? Can you show us the difference in performance with group sizes and extreme spreads?

I happen to remember a 1500 METER standard for the SOCOM PSR trials, and one of the adoption requirements was to have 700 ft/lbs energy remaining on impact.

Even the Mk248 Mod1 load, a 220gr SMK at 2850 fps muzzle velocity, can't make 700 ft/lbs energy at 1500 meters.

Jimro

[Lopti]

Thanks for all of the advice guys I have gotten way more information then I expected which is exactly what I needed so thanks.

I am going to take several the posters advice and get a gun to learn on and once I am hitting 1000 yards consistently and and feel comfortable with my ability and knowing the limitations of my rifle etc... I can then upgrade to a higher caliber. The main reason for this is I think it will be cheaper in the long run just because the money I would have to put into ammo for a 338 Lapua in order to get to where I want to be at would be insane.

So I am going to do 308 or 260 rem, one question with the 260 rem though why is everyone saying if I reload? I reload my 9mm right now just because... why not haha but I am curious as to why everyone is saying only do that round if I reload what is the mindset behind that?

[Jimro]

The 260 Rem has the ability to launch a 139~142gr match bullet fast enough that it has a very similar ballistic path as a 300 Win Mag pushing a 190~210gr match bullet.

So you get all the ballistic advantages without all the recoil cost.

There are a few 260 Rem match loads out there, Black Hills makes one. However, if your rifle doesn't happen to like one of the limited commercial load options, well then tough luck.

The 6.5 and 7mm high BC bullets have really opened up a lot of lower recoil long range options for handloaders. Some folks are using the 162gr 7mm Amax bullet in a 7mm-08 with very good results.

Jimro

[MtnCreek]

There's not much factory loaded match ammo available for the 260. Federal, Black Hills and Hornady all make good factory match ammo for the .308 win. If you wanted good factory match in a 6.5mm, take a look at the Creedmoor.

[MarkCO]

.260 vs .308...

I have both and I reload for both. I have also shot some factory ammo out of both. The .260 today has about twice the number of loads that were available a year ago, and there are more in the works. Some of the .260 match loads are phenomenal. One of the Remington engineers has told me that the .260 is one of the cartridges they see the most interest in right now. I have confidence that the .260 Rem will see more loads as the "shortages" wear off and things return to normal. Several factory ballisticians have load charts worked up, but they have not tested them yet. There is also a bit of a battle in the 6.5 playing field as there are at least 5 good cartridges vying for attention. If I had to bet, I would bet on the .260, but still a bet.

There are multiple loads for the .308 that are true match grade with a variety of bullets so you can certainly find one that will work well in any rifle. It is a standby and any retailer with rifle ammo on the shelf will likely have a few flavors of .308, maybe one to three of .260.

Given my experiences, I would still choose the .260 over the .308 even if I did not reload. When you reload, the .260 is the obvious choice between the two.

[MarkCO]

If you wanted good factory match in a 6.5mm, take a look at the Creedmoor.

Winchester and Hornady, yes good ammo.

However I take it you have not compared to the .260 in the last year. Rem, Nosler, Federal, Black Hills, Norma, Barnes plus a bunch of custom loaders like are now loading .260 Rem.

There are more .260 offerings (by about 30%) today in the .260 than the 6.5CM. There are twice the number of true match loads in .260 as compared to the 6.5CM. A year ago, the 6.5 CM was ahead by 50%.

[tobnpr]

Some folks are using the 162gr 7mm Amax bullet in a 7mm-08 with very good results.

That's mine...problem is that the 162 Amax was out of production until just about a month ago (and I snatched up ten boxes) and can be found, just still sketchy. The only other real contender is the 168 Berger VLD, very pricey and also difficult to find.

The reason we say ".260 if you handload" is that factory ammo can be difficult to find- especially match ammo; hunting ammo would be more common, and still pricey. If you have handloading equipment, you'll get the ammo tailored to your rifle at half the cost.]

One of my sons shoots a .260, it's a "bughole" rifle with 140 Amax's. As partial as I am to the 7mm, I would go with the 6.5 due to better availability of components. JMO...

[Lopti]

I think this weekend I am going to drive around to all the gunshops and just see what ammo they have in stock etc... while I can order online I would like to know I can run to a gun store and get some ammo in a pinch.

The three rounds I really love are the .260 Remington, .308 Winchester and the .300 Winchester Magnum.

The .260 is winning so far just because it just such tiny recoil while having better distance then the 308.

The 308 is nice just because well 308....

And the 300 magnum is decently priced online and has great ballistics but the kick of a magnum is probably to much for me right now will not get that one unless I find one to shoot so I know how it feels.

Thx again guys

[MtnCreek]

MarkCO,

Thanks for the updated info on the .260; seems a lot has changes since I last looked. It's good to hear Remington is finally starting to support their own cartridge. Maybe one day they're even start chambering precision rifles for it.

Lopti,

Consider taking a basic precision rifle class before purchasing. Take the course with one of their rifles and after that you will have a better understanding for your equipment purchase.