Please list your TWELVE twist success or failure stories in .223 Rem with these

Unlicensed Dremel · September 4, 2014, 10:41 PM

As long as we're on the subject of .224-based centerfires and largish game....

Please list your TWELVE twist success or failure stories with these factory rounds or bullets.

Just interested in 1 in 12 twist anecdotes for these bullets / factory rounds, and which rifle, barrel length, and other details - do they stabilize and shoot well - or not:

1. Federal Fusion 62 gr (mostly interested in this one)
2. Federal 64 gr soft point
3. Nosler 60 gr Partition
4. Winchester 64 gr Power Point
5. Federal / Speer Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 62 gr (discontinued apparently, or LEO only now?)
6. Remington 62 gr Core-Lokt UB-PSP
7. Barnes 53 gr TSX
8. Barnes 55 gr TSX
9. Hornady Superformance 55 gr GMX
Any other 60-65 grain lead or 50-55 gr gilding metal bullet (excluding FMJ / military ammo)

I didn't list the Nosler 64 gr Bonded Solid Base because the answer is definitely yes, as recently discussed on here - even in 14 twists.

I will start. The Weatherby Vanguard I Sub-MOA Varminter shoots the 62 Federal Fusion great.

Scorch · September 4, 2014, 11:36 PM

A 223 with a 1:12" twist will not generally stabilize anything much over 55 gr (unless it is a short round nose or semi-spritzer bullet). It has pretty much the same limitations as a 1:14" twist except you can stabilize 55 gr spritzer BT probably a little more reliably. I shoot an older Interarms Mini-Mauser in 223 with a 1:12" twist, it does well with 55 gr flat base spritzers.

Jim Watson · September 5, 2014, 12:00 AM

My only 12 twist is a Remington 788 which I don't have any record of ever shooting with a factory load.
It did very well with handloaded Berger 60 gr flatbase HP.
I never pursued it much, Sierra 52s and 53s are so much easier to get.

bamaranger · September 5, 2014, 01:20 AM

My mini-Mauser shoots well with reloads using 52/53 gr SMK's. Surprisingly, at 100 yds anyhow, it will plunk 3 Remington 62 gr factory match rounds into MOA groups nearly as tight.

What does not shoot well are the assorted 55 gr FMJ's, as well as W-W Ranger 55 PSP's. In fact a lot of .223 factory ammo quality seems all over the map, in that rifle, and our AR (1:9) as well.

It shot Federal 55 gr bonded tactical loads into hunting size groups, about 1.5 MOA good enough for bamaboy to take it deer hunting in his early jaunts.

Picher · September 5, 2014, 06:36 AM

My 12 twist, Remington 700, .223, shoots Nosler Partition 60 grainers to 1 MOA. I know better than to invest in any bullets heavier than those.

Haven't tried the Hornady GMX 55 grain bullets, but if they stabilize, I'll probably load a bunch for larger varmints and game. The non-lead bullets are longer than equivalent lead-core bullets, so there's a question of stability, since it's more a length issue than one of weight.

Unlicensed Dremel · September 5, 2014, 10:37 AM

Scorch, right - I understand - except that they do often. At least, there are many reports, for example, of 62 gr Fusions shooting well in 12s - a lot more than reports of them not shooting well. So that's why I'm trying to flesh out a little here - where that line might be with various rifles, chamberings, bbl lengths, and specific bullets.

I mean, look at all those I listed - are those ALL made for AR15 guys? Maybe, but I kind of doubt it. Tikka and some CZs and some Savages notwithstanding, the vast majority of .223 non-ARs sold have 12 twists. *Somebody* keeps buying these rounds and bullets - presumably because they shoot well. Maybe it is all AR15 guys, but that's what I'm trying to find out.

Brian Pfleuger · September 5, 2014, 10:45 AM

The 55gr GMX is reportedly 0.898". The 62gr Barnes TTSX is 0.981 and Barnes says it will stabilize in 1:12.

My only point of reference in that Barnes said their 80gr .243 TTSX would stabilize in a 1:10 when every stability calculator says it would not or would be marginal. Barnes was right, which isn't terribly surprising as I assume they've actually DONE IT.

Therefore, I assume that they're also right about the 62gr and, if they are, the shorter and lighter GMX should be basically the same.

Unlicensed Dremel · September 5, 2014, 10:50 AM

Quote:

The 55gr Barnes TTSX is 0.797 and Barnes says it will stabilize in 1:12

Fixed it for ya. Barnes says 9 twist for 62, and 12 twist for 53s and 55s.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/product...le/tsx-bullet/

The 53 and 55 are flatbased, and the 62 is a boattail, so it makes sense.

taylorce1 · September 5, 2014, 11:49 AM

Here's a 12 twist success story but with none of your bullets. My buddies son when he was 8 went to TX to hunt and used a Handi Rifle with a 1:12 twist. My buddy tried the Partitions and 55 grain TSX and couldn't get them to stabilize so he settled on the 45 grain TSX.

Quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
Last month I took my 8 year old son on his first hunt ( first hunt with him behind the trigger). We have been getting ready for this for a few years with lots of rifle handling and shooting. He's been shooting a 22 since he was 4 and been shooting this .223 single shot handi rifle for 10 months and some shooting with a 6.5 swede and reduced loads for a year.
Good friend of mine who posts here as Graybird was heading to Texas for an Addax hunt and mentioned they have Hogs Sheep and Goats too and that I may want to bring my son along so he can get his first hunt.
To make a long story short we had a great time even though daytime temps were 140 degrees ( okay a slight exaggeration they were 106 ) and the hogs were pretty tough to put in front of a youngster we were able to get it done.
The Black Hawaiian ram was taken at 66 yards with a base of the neck shot from his .223 and Barnes 45 grain TSX bullets, complete penetration and quick one shot kill.

The hog took several stalks and some pep talks but finally we were able to put an 8 year old boy and a hog in the same place at the same time and he made the shot. Again one shot this time low through the shoulders complete penetration at 16 yards. The hog ran 16 yards after the shot right to us and just about ran over the camera man (Graybird) then laid down next to him and died.
Please take a look at the pictures I've got a pretty happy kid there and he is hooked for life.
I will try to post the video link as well.

Unlicensed Dremel · September 5, 2014, 12:11 PM

Very nice. Those TSXs are impressive.

And you have to wonder why Barnes made *both* a 53 gr and a 55 gr? What's 2 measly grains of difference gonna do?

Brian Pfleuger · September 5, 2014, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by U.D.

Fixed it for ya. Barnes says 9 twist for 62, and 12 twist for 53s and 55s.

It's a TSX (not TTSX) but their load data for .223Rem shows 1:12 twist for the 62gr, actually shows 1:12 for the 70gr too.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-cont...mingtonWeb.pdf

Unlicensed Dremel · September 5, 2014, 12:23 PM

Ahhhhhh, hmmm, very interesting.

tobnpr · September 5, 2014, 05:10 PM

Sierra (edit) 63 SP from a Rem 700 VTR

FrankenMauser · September 5, 2014, 06:31 PM

Quote:

And you have to wonder why Barnes made *both* a 53 gr and a 55 gr? What's 2 measly grains of difference gonna do?

They have slightly different nose profiles and cannelure locations.

I can't remember which is which, but one was intended for general purpose use (bolt actions and single-shots), while the other was intended for ARs.

Brian Pfleuger · September 5, 2014, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Ahhhhhh, hmmm, very interesting.

Yes, and the plastic tip actually improves stability, all else being equal. It's not the tip so much as that fact that it's light and shifts the center of gravity. A bullet of the same length without the tip would be less stable.

mete · September 5, 2014, 07:33 PM

Does anyone use Gain Twist ??

Unlicensed Dremel · September 7, 2014, 06:04 PM

Guys, I should have posted this in general rifles, not here, I just realized - sorry!

Mobuck · September 8, 2014, 07:14 AM

Nosler 60 grain Partition worked in 1-12 both 223 and 22-250(groups not as tight as 55 and under)
Hornady 60 grain Spire Point = same
Win 64 grain, PMC 64 grain=total failure(3-4" groups or worse)
Oddly enough, the Speer 70 semi-spritzer will produce 150 yard deer hunting accuracy in rifles that won't handle the 62-64 grain bullets.

September 4, 2014, 10:41 PM	#1
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	Please list your TWELVE twist success or failure stories in .223 Rem with these As long as we're on the subject of .224-based centerfires and largish game.... Please list your TWELVE twist success or failure stories with these factory rounds or bullets. Just interested in 1 in 12 twist anecdotes for these bullets / factory rounds, and which rifle, barrel length, and other details - do they stabilize and shoot well - or not: 1. Federal Fusion 62 gr (mostly interested in this one) 2. Federal 64 gr soft point 3. Nosler 60 gr Partition 4. Winchester 64 gr Power Point 5. Federal / Speer Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 62 gr (discontinued apparently, or LEO only now?) 6. Remington 62 gr Core-Lokt UB-PSP 7. Barnes 53 gr TSX 8. Barnes 55 gr TSX 9. Hornady Superformance 55 gr GMX Any other 60-65 grain lead or 50-55 gr gilding metal bullet (excluding FMJ / military ammo) I didn't list the Nosler 64 gr Bonded Solid Base because the answer is definitely yes, as recently discussed on here - even in 14 twists. I will start. The Weatherby Vanguard I Sub-MOA Varminter shoots the 62 Federal Fusion great. Last edited by Unlicensed Dremel; September 5, 2014 at 10:51 AM.

September 4, 2014, 11:36 PM	#2
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	A 223 with a 1:12" twist will not generally stabilize anything much over 55 gr (unless it is a short round nose or semi-spritzer bullet). It has pretty much the same limitations as a 1:14" twist except you can stabilize 55 gr spritzer BT probably a little more reliably. I shoot an older Interarms Mini-Mauser in 223 with a 1:12" twist, it does well with 55 gr flat base spritzers. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

September 5, 2014, 01:20 AM	#4
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	another Mini Mauser 1:12 My mini-Mauser shoots well with reloads using 52/53 gr SMK's. Surprisingly, at 100 yds anyhow, it will plunk 3 Remington 62 gr factory match rounds into MOA groups nearly as tight. What does not shoot well are the assorted 55 gr FMJ's, as well as W-W Ranger 55 PSP's. In fact a lot of .223 factory ammo quality seems all over the map, in that rifle, and our AR (1:9) as well. It shot Federal 55 gr bonded tactical loads into hunting size groups, about 1.5 MOA good enough for bamaboy to take it deer hunting in his early jaunts.

September 5, 2014, 10:37 AM	#6
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	Scorch, right - I understand - except that they do often. At least, there are many reports, for example, of 62 gr Fusions shooting well in 12s - a lot more than reports of them not shooting well. So that's why I'm trying to flesh out a little here - where that line might be with various rifles, chamberings, bbl lengths, and specific bullets. I mean, look at all those I listed - are those ALL made for AR15 guys? Maybe, but I kind of doubt it. Tikka and some CZs and some Savages notwithstanding, the vast majority of .223 non-ARs sold have 12 twists. Somebody keeps buying these rounds and bullets - presumably because they shoot well. Maybe it is all AR15 guys, but that's what I'm trying to find out. Last edited by Unlicensed Dremel; September 5, 2014 at 10:48 AM.

September 5, 2014, 10:45 AM	#7
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	The 55gr GMX is reportedly 0.898". The 62gr Barnes TTSX is 0.981 and Barnes says it will stabilize in 1:12. My only point of reference in that Barnes said their 80gr .243 TTSX would stabilize in a 1:10 when every stability calculator says it would not or would be marginal. Barnes was right, which isn't terribly surprising as I assume they've actually DONE IT. Therefore, I assume that they're also right about the 62gr and, if they are, the shorter and lighter GMX should be basically the same. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

September 5, 2014, 12:00 AM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	My only 12 twist is a Remington 788 which I don't have any record of ever shooting with a factory load. It did very well with handloaded Berger 60 gr flatbase HP. I never pursued it much, Sierra 52s and 53s are so much easier to get.

September 5, 2014, 06:36 AM	#5
Picher Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Maine Posts: 3,694	My 12 twist, Remington 700, .223, shoots Nosler Partition 60 grainers to 1 MOA. I know better than to invest in any bullets heavier than those. Haven't tried the Hornady GMX 55 grain bullets, but if they stabilize, I'll probably load a bunch for larger varmints and game. The non-lead bullets are longer than equivalent lead-core bullets, so there's a question of stability, since it's more a length issue than one of weight.

September 5, 2014, 12:11 PM	#10
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	Very nice. Those TSXs are impressive. And you have to wonder why Barnes made both a 53 gr and a 55 gr? What's 2 measly grains of difference gonna do?

September 5, 2014, 12:23 PM	#12
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	Ahhhhhh, hmmm, very interesting.

September 5, 2014, 05:10 PM	#13
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	Sierra (edit) 63 SP from a Rem 700 VTR __________________ Remington 700/Savage Rebarreling /Action Blueprinting 07 FFL /Mosin-Nagant Custom Shop/Bent Bolts Genuine Cerakote Applicator www.biggorillagunworks.com Last edited by tobnpr; September 5, 2014 at 10:35 PM.

September 5, 2014, 07:33 PM	#16
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Does anyone use Gain Twist ?? __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

September 7, 2014, 06:04 PM	#17
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	Guys, I should have posted this in general rifles, not here, I just realized - sorry!

September 8, 2014, 07:14 AM	#18
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	Nosler 60 grain Partition worked in 1-12 both 223 and 22-250(groups not as tight as 55 and under) Hornady 60 grain Spire Point = same Win 64 grain, PMC 64 grain=total failure(3-4" groups or worse) Oddly enough, the Speer 70 semi-spritzer will produce 150 yard deer hunting accuracy in rifles that won't handle the 62-64 grain bullets.