Huntsville man finds out his antique shotgun/pistol illegal under 1934 law

smince · October 11, 2009, 01:41 PM

http://blog.al.com/breaking/2009/10/post_41.html

Huntsville man finds out his antique shotgun/pistol illegal under 1934 law
By Victoria Cumbow
October 11, 2009, 6:42AM

Quote:

HUNTSVILLE, AL -- When 81-year-old Carl Craig walked into Madison Guns & Ammo Tuesday, he didn't know the gun he was carrying was an illegal weapon.

Craig had a .410 gauge pistol, made sometime in the late 1920s or early 1930s.

"The reason it is illegal is that it's a handgun that fires a shotgun shell," said David Hyche, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms resident agent in Huntsville and Birmingham.

The gun was handed down to Craig by his father about 60 years ago, but it's been kept in a box for most of that time. Earlier last week, Craig decided to have it appraised.

"It's a pretty unusual weapon," he said. "It's a shotgun, but it's a pistol."

After putting the gun's information into the computer system at Madison Guns, the store was notified the weapon was illegal, requiring the store to hold it until local ATF officers could inspect the gun.

While Craig didn't understand how the store could legally keep his personal property, he left without his gun. The next morning, he met with local ATF officers at the store to find out what the law said about his gun.

Tim Knox, owner of Madison Guns, said he had no choice but to confiscate the gun and contact the ATF once the computer said it was an illegal weapon.

"I could lose my federal firearms license, be fined up to $125,000 and go to prison for five years," Knox said. "My salesman could've been arrested, and Mr. Craig could've been arrested."

ATF's Hyche said Knox was correct in holding the gun, and ATF agents in Huntsville worked with Craig to make sure he could keep the gun.

To make this particular gun legal requires one of two things, Hyche said. Craig could have the gun rifled - have grooves cut into the barrel - or he could have the gun disassembled.

Before Craig left Madison Guns Wednesday, the gun was disassembled, and he was able to take the heirloom back home.

In 1934, the National Firearms Act outlawed short-barreled shotguns. Technically, Craig's antique gun is illegal under the law, but Hyche said the ATF's concern was figuring out a way to let Craig keep it.

"This happens all the time," he said. "We don't want (the gun) destroyed or take it away from the family."

He said it's common that people are left guns like this when family members die, and the best thing to do is contact the ATF.

"We don't want to charge any of those people," Hyche said. "We almost always find a way to accommodate the person."

zoomie · October 11, 2009, 01:58 PM

I think he was probably lucky he was dealing with ATF agents in Huntsville and not NYC.

zxcvbob · October 11, 2009, 02:20 PM

Since the gun was made before 1934, would the law really be enforceable? It would either be an ex post facto law, or a violation of the Takings Clause in the 5th Amendment.

Hkmp5sd · October 11, 2009, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Since the gun was made before 1934, would the law really be enforceable?

You bet it is. Otherwise, every machinegun made before 1986 would be exempt from the machinegun ban.

Notice the one thing the ATF agent didn't say could be done to make it legal? Register it as a SBS. Cannot register after the fact.

shooter_from_show-me · October 11, 2009, 02:34 PM

Hmmm...I find this odd. Doesn't the Taurus Judge shoot .410 shells. Yes I know the pistol has a rifled barrel. But still smooth bore, rifled bore what is the big deal with that short of a barrel? It's a still a shotgun shell.

Poor guy...comes to have it appraised only to take it home in a box in pieces

zxcvbob · October 11, 2009, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Hmmm...I find this odd. Doesn't the Taurus Judge shoot .410 shells. Yes I know the pistol has a rifled barrel. But still smooth bore, rifled bore what is the big deal with that short of a barrel? It's a still a shotgun shell. Poor guy...comes to have it appraised only to take it home in a box in pieces

Taurus Judge has a rifled barrel. That makes all the difference (even tho' it is only minimally rifled.)

Hkmp5sd · October 11, 2009, 02:43 PM

Quote:

But still smooth bore, rifled bore what is the big deal with that short of a barrel?

Rifled barrel makes it a handgun by definition. A smooth barrel makes is a shotgun by defnition. The barrel length <18" and/or overall length <26" makes it an unregistered short barreled shotgun per the National Firearm Act of 1934.

BTW, the Taurus Judge is technically chambered for the .45 Long Colt cartridge.

BillCA · October 11, 2009, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Hmmm...I find this odd. Doesn't the Taurus Judge shoot .410 shells. Yes I know the pistol has a rifled barrel. But still smooth bore, rifled bore what is the big deal with that short of a barrel? It's a still a shotgun shell.

The primary difference is that the Judge does have a rifled barrel and also fires pistol ammo (.45 Colt). If it had been chambered for only a shotgun round with a smooth bore, it would be illegal as a short-barreled-shotgun.

Mr. Craig probably had some form of pistol often called an "Auto Burglar" similar to the Ithaca 20ga model below. These were popular in the 20's & 30's until the NFA made them illegal without registration. They were more popular in 28-ga and .410 than in 20ga.

The most amazing part of this story is the cooperation Mr. Craig received from the local ATF agent, David Hyche. It is usually the ATF that forces surrender of such weapons as a violation of the '34 NFA. Mr. Hyche should receive letters commending his actions in finding a way for Mr. Craig to keep a valuable collector's gun.

Especially in these hard times, if Mr. Craig can work out a way of legally transferring the gun to a museum or collector, he'll benefit and so will someone else.

Of course, we should keep a vigil eye out for a follow-up story where Hyche's bosses decide to raid Mr. Craig's house and prosecute him at a later date.

PTK · October 11, 2009, 03:46 PM

Bill,

More than likely it was a Handi-Gun or Game-Getter. Auto and Burglar guns were mostly in 20ga, from the catalogs I've seen.

Bill DeShivs · October 11, 2009, 07:50 PM

Ithaca Auto & Burglar guns were only made in 20 &28 ga. It was probably an H&R Handy Gun or similar.
Disassembly would not make the gun legal, under federal law-unless the barrel was destroyed.
And if the gun without a barrel is not a "firearm," could one get a SBS tax stamp and "make" it a SBS after installing the barrel? I know it originall falls in the AOW category, but could it be "remade" as an SBS? I have seen Handy Guns registered as SBS, rather than AOW. Perhaps this is why?

gyvel · October 12, 2009, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Disassembly would not make the gun legal, under federal law-unless the barrel was destroyed.
And if the gun without a barrel is not a "firearm," could one get a SBS tax Ithaca Auto & Burglar guns were only made in 20 &28 ga. It was probably an H&R Handy Gun or similar.
stamp and "make" it a SBS after installing the barrel? I know it originall falls in the AOW category, but could it be "remade" as an SBS? I have seen Handy Guns registered as SBS, rather than AOW. Perhaps this is why?

You might be on to something there...

M4Sherman · October 12, 2009, 11:39 AM

I thought it was an AOW now a SBS due to it being a pistol....

David Hineline · October 13, 2009, 12:32 AM

I would like to see this gun shop computer system that knows something is an illegal weapon, only a contact to the ATF with serial number check could tell if it had been properly registered.

This story is full of mis information.

BillCA · October 13, 2009, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

Ithaca Auto & Burglar guns were only made in 20 &28 ga. It was probably an H&R Handy Gun or similar.

I think you're right. I'm relying on aging memory of something that was nearly extinct before my time. Except for the single example of an Ithaca 28ga Auto Burglar I once examined. Kind of a fun "little" gun.

PTK - The 20 gauge was certainly popular but I seem to recall someone saying the 28ga was more practical for the purpose. Either one would scrape a carjacker off the running boards of the cars back then.

Al Thompson · October 13, 2009, 10:51 AM

Tim Knox, owner of Madison Guns, said he had no choice but to confiscate the gun

I have a lot of problems with this statement. Unless old Tim is a cop, what he did was stealing.

PTK · October 13, 2009, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Tim Knox, owner of Madison Guns, said he had no choice but to confiscate the gun

I have a lot of problems with this statement. Unless old Tim is a cop, what he did was stealing.

And illegal transfer of an NFA item, possession of an unregistered NFA item, etc.

Tim's pretty dumb.

Singlesix1954 · October 28, 2009, 08:03 PM

The outcome of the story is good, but the gunstore guy did't give a rip snort about the old man. He didn't have to "know" about who had it. He could have told the old man to get it out of his store and then to contact ATF himself.

I heard of a Handy-Gun showing up at a estate clean up before an auction a few years ago. The auctioneer would not even come on the place with his equipment untill it was removed. Reserch was done, and a family member removed the fireing pin and welded the action shut. It now hangs on his wall in a shadow box in memory of his grandfather. No laws are broken and a family treasure is in a place of honor as it should be. The ATF was not called, but if they find and check this gun it has been made unfireable. It was done in a manner that left it appear untouched unless it is removed from the glass case and turned over.

Slamfire · October 28, 2009, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Reserch was done, and a family member removed the fireing pin and welded the action shut. It now hangs on his wall in a shadow box in memory of his grandfather. No laws are broken and a family treasure is in a place of honor as it should be. The ATF was not called, but if they find and check this gun it has been made unfireable.

You would have to ask the ATF if welding the action shut is sufficient to keep someone out of jail.

They might say no.

Firearms that are Machine guns, violate the NFA, are pure poison. You just don't know if the ATF wants to make you the evil poster child of the year and nail your hide to the wall, or not.

You can find the threads, David Olofson went to jail because the AR15 he lent out, malfunctioned and doubled. The ATF took the position that it was a machine gun. The owner got 30 months in jail. http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=68590

The ATF has gone after people with semi auto's that doubled because the free floating firing pin hit a sensitive commerical primer.

ssilicon · October 28, 2009, 09:40 PM

I don't think there is anything the store could have done if the man took his own property out of the store other than call it in. The store staff are not law enforcement officers and do not have the legal power to "confiscate" anyone's property. Just because a federal agency asks that they do that doesn't make it truly legal.

johnwilliamson062 · October 29, 2009, 09:05 AM

I think a 1:400 twist would be best...

gyvel · November 1, 2009, 11:22 PM

Quote:

I think a 1:400 twist would be best...

And on a more serious note, is there any "regulation'" "ruling" or "mandate" that stipulates how deep the rifling has to be?

Bill DeShivs · November 2, 2009, 01:59 AM

Not to my knowledge. Nor is there any stipulation that it has to be spiral.

gyvel · November 2, 2009, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Not to my knowledge. Nor is there any stipulation that it has to be spiral.
__________________

Hmmmmm......

444 · November 2, 2009, 02:23 PM

I have always wanted one of those.
I have looked a few times at them, but probably will never get one. I do have one of those Serbu Super Shorties in 12 guage and quickly discovered that the recoil is absolutely ferocious and it shoots about two feet higher than you think it should. I guess I don't need more stuff that really has no practical value: but I have always thought the Auto Burglar was very cool looking.
I knew someone that had one that got it pretty much under the same kind of circumstances: it was just something passed down through the family. I advised him that it was almost certainly an unregistered NFA weapon: he had no idea about this sort of thing.

johnnyh · November 2, 2009, 05:22 PM

Interesting.....I just joined your group and I have an H&R "Handy Gun", .410 (see picture).
When my Dad passed away back in 2001, my Mom gave it over to me. The story of the gun goes that my Grandfather, won it in a bet, in a beer bar, in Oregon.
I did the right thing (probably not the smart thing) I registered it with California DOJ. As I did a couple of other pistols I got from my Father. The Handy gun was registered as a relic / curio (I have the paperwork to prove it).
Just this afternoon, was getting some of my guns together for a weekend shooting trip to the desert this coming weekend. I called DOJ (the number on my registration paperwork and asked about taking it out to shoot it in the desert (If I were stopped on the road with it). They transferred me around until I got the VM of a lady in permits and licenses..........I did not leave a VM, read this thread looking for advice. It is back in my safe and will not be taken out of my house.

October 11, 2009, 02:20 PM	#3
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	Since the gun was made before 1934, would the law really be enforceable? It would either be an ex post facto law, or a violation of the Takings Clause in the 5th Amendment. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

October 11, 2009, 02:34 PM	#5
shooter_from_show-me Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 231	Hmmm...I find this odd. Doesn't the Taurus Judge shoot .410 shells. Yes I know the pistol has a rifled barrel. But still smooth bore, rifled bore what is the big deal with that short of a barrel? It's a still a shotgun shell. Poor guy...comes to have it appraised only to take it home in a box in pieces __________________ When the government fears the people, you have liberty. When the people fear the government, you have tyranny. ~ Thomas Jefferson NRA Life Member

October 11, 2009, 07:50 PM	#10
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,984	Ithaca Auto & Burglar guns were only made in 20 &28 ga. It was probably an H&R Handy Gun or similar. Disassembly would not make the gun legal, under federal law-unless the barrel was destroyed. And if the gun without a barrel is not a "firearm," could one get a SBS tax stamp and "make" it a SBS after installing the barrel? I know it originall falls in the AOW category, but could it be "remade" as an SBS? I have seen Handy Guns registered as SBS, rather than AOW. Perhaps this is why? __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com Last edited by Bill DeShivs; October 11, 2009 at 07:55 PM.

October 13, 2009, 10:51 AM	#15
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	Tim Knox, owner of Madison Guns, said he had no choice but to confiscate the gun I have a lot of problems with this statement. Unless old Tim is a cop, what he did was stealing. __________________ http://www.scfirearms.org/

October 28, 2009, 08:03 PM	#17
Singlesix1954 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2009 Location: Rural Ne Posts: 580	The outcome of the story is good, but the gunstore guy did't give a rip snort about the old man. He didn't have to "know" about who had it. He could have told the old man to get it out of his store and then to contact ATF himself. I heard of a Handy-Gun showing up at a estate clean up before an auction a few years ago. The auctioneer would not even come on the place with his equipment untill it was removed. Reserch was done, and a family member removed the fireing pin and welded the action shut. It now hangs on his wall in a shadow box in memory of his grandfather. No laws are broken and a family treasure is in a place of honor as it should be. The ATF was not called, but if they find and check this gun it has been made unfireable. It was done in a manner that left it appear untouched unless it is removed from the glass case and turned over. __________________ Luke 22:36 Single six 1954

October 11, 2009, 01:58 PM	#2
zoomie Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2006 Location: GA Posts: 1,863	I think he was probably lucky he was dealing with ATF agents in Huntsville and not NYC.

October 11, 2009, 03:46 PM	#9
PTK Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2008 Posts: 442	Bill, More than likely it was a Handi-Gun or Game-Getter. Auto and Burglar guns were mostly in 20ga, from the catalogs I've seen.

October 12, 2009, 11:39 AM	#12
M4Sherman Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 408	I thought it was an AOW now a SBS due to it being a pistol....

October 13, 2009, 12:32 AM	#13
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	I would like to see this gun shop computer system that knows something is an illegal weapon, only a contact to the ATF with serial number check could tell if it had been properly registered. This story is full of mis information.

October 28, 2009, 09:40 PM	#19
ssilicon Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2005 Posts: 459	I don't think there is anything the store could have done if the man took his own property out of the store other than call it in. The store staff are not law enforcement officers and do not have the legal power to "confiscate" anyone's property. Just because a federal agency asks that they do that doesn't make it truly legal.

October 29, 2009, 09:05 AM	#20
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	I think a 1:400 twist would be best...

November 2, 2009, 01:59 AM	#22
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,984	Not to my knowledge. Nor is there any stipulation that it has to be spiral. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

November 2, 2009, 02:23 PM	#24
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	I have always wanted one of those. I have looked a few times at them, but probably will never get one. I do have one of those Serbu Super Shorties in 12 guage and quickly discovered that the recoil is absolutely ferocious and it shoots about two feet higher than you think it should. I guess I don't need more stuff that really has no practical value: but I have always thought the Auto Burglar was very cool looking. I knew someone that had one that got it pretty much under the same kind of circumstances: it was just something passed down through the family. I advised him that it was almost certainly an unregistered NFA weapon: he had no idea about this sort of thing. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.