What bullet calibre is this?

Etraveller · October 23, 2008, 07:40 PM

Hello everyone.
There are some photos of a bullet that I attached and these are the specifications:
Weight: 129 grains
Rifling 8R
Full metal jacket, RN
Length 0.680 inches
diamter at base: (slightly deformed .304 inches and .313 inches).
Average diameter at base .308-309 inches
Land impression width: 0.0735 inches
groove impressed width: 0.0725 inches

The bullet in question is longer than the standard 9mm and has rifling along most of it's length.
I wanted to know the exact calibre (Other than base being .308 inches),
and any other helpful information.

P.S. the picture without any tags, the bullet on the left is the unknown.

Etraveller

DIXIEDOG · October 23, 2008, 08:58 PM

Without a casing I don't think there is any way to tell an exact caliber. A .308 bullet is an exact match for several calibers, it just depends on what casing it is pressed in.

**Mal H** · October 23, 2008, 09:37 PM

Well, the exact caliber is 0.308 inches, because that is the definition of caliber. But, if you want to know what cartridge that bullet came from, like DIXIEDOG said, you can't tell for certain. From the shape of it, it looks like it would be from an older cartridge such a 30-40 Krag, or maybe a 30-30. But both of those were usually loaded with heavier bullets.

Mike Irwin should be along shortly with a better idea of what it might be.

BTW, is this a test? Or did you find a mystery bullet that you are curious about?

Sturmgewehre · October 23, 2008, 09:43 PM

Humm, interesting. Not sure.

**Unclenick** · October 23, 2008, 10:17 PM

I can't find a modern 130 grain .308 or .309 RN bullet in my data. It could either be a rifle or a pistol bullet. 8 lands and grooves is an unusual configuration. I once had a retired French MAB in .32 ACP that had a .309 groove diameter. That's an awful lot of bullet length and weight for .32 ACP, though. Also too heavy for the 7.63 Mauser, which had 8" twist 6 land and 5 land barrels at different times, IIRC. Curious.

jaguarxk120 · October 24, 2008, 06:48 AM

Is the base of the bullet hollow? The pictures are shadowed and I can not see the base clearly.

At fire look it's a bullet fired from a 30 cal. carbine. The carbine tracer bullet was 0.88 inch long, and the ball cartridge bullet was 0.69 inch long.
Hope this helps Tom F.

Etraveller · October 26, 2008, 10:50 AM

Hey Jaguarxk120, the bullet is flat at the base with lead exposed.

Mal H, it's not a test, but I really would like to get any info on it, because it's not a bullet that one comes across everyday.

Did Mike Irwin read the post as you said Mal H?

Does anyone else have any info to input?

jaguarxk120 · October 26, 2008, 11:09 AM

The reason I asked is that the tracer round out of the 30 carbine is 0.88 inch long. If it was hollow that's where the tracer composition would have been.
When Jacketed bullets are made some have a flat base and some have a slight hollow to them,

The 147 grain full jacket bullet has a slight hollow and the 150 grain full jacket bullet is a flat base. Both bullets are spitzer boattail bullets.

How did you come by this bullet it looks like it has hit some thing.

What seens odd is that the rifling engraving run's the full length of the projectile and the nose is very rounded.

Tom F.

Etraveller · October 26, 2008, 03:11 PM

I've heard that it's possible to shoot a .38/9mm calibre in a carbine, and the bullet becomes pressed into shape along the length.
How tr
ue that is, I can't say since a .38/9mm has a larger diameter.
Qs you said also, the nose is very rounded, and the rifling is along it's length.
And yes the bullet appears to have hit an object.

Hmmm.

**Unclenick** · October 26, 2008, 04:04 PM

The rifling runs the length of the bullet because this was a roundnose bullet to begin with. No mystery there. The question is where it came from, since a 130 grain roundnose is not commercially available, AFAIK? Also, what was it shot in that has 8 lands in a .308 bore?

jaguarxk120 · October 26, 2008, 04:16 PM

It's quite possible this is a custom swajed bullet! Most of the major bullet makers do not make a 130 gr full patch round nose bullet, they may make soft points in that weight but not FMJ.
Someone could have taken a 9mm and reformed it into a 30cal. ether through a reducing die or in a custom swajing die. Check the base where the jacket is folded to the bottom. There may be some indication of re swajing or being pushed threw a reducing die.

As far as shooting a 9mm out of a 30 carbine, possible to get a bare bullet into the chamber, would have tobe driven in. But then how would they shoot it out? easyer to just chamber the correct ammo.

And why would they choose 130 gr (129) bullet?

Tom F.

jaguarxk120 · October 26, 2008, 04:27 PM

I think it's a four groove barrel. What he may be refering to is the impressions left on the bullet. The engraving made by the lands, so it would be a total of eight marks on the bullet.
Tom F.

**Mal H** · October 26, 2008, 04:38 PM

Etraveller - I think Mike Irwin viewed the thread, but I guess he didn't have an answer so no need to post to say that. He has the largest collection of cartridges and bullets I know of. But that one is a rare or unique one as far as I know.

wncchester · October 26, 2008, 05:19 PM

"Average diameter at base .308-309 inches"

That makes it a normal .30 caliber bullet.

No way to tell from which cartridge it was fired.

Etraveller · October 27, 2008, 10:37 AM

Hey jaguarxk, I double checked, and nope it's actually 8 land impressions, and 8 grooves, all separate.

There is an actual possibility based on diameter, that it could be a .303 British, as some are made round nosed, FMJ, 130 grain, but i need to check on some of those to see if it's so.

So the possible list has expanded, just need to do some more digging, and probably some more posts in other forums too!

where there is a will, there is a way...(most of the time)

**Mal H** · October 27, 2008, 01:21 PM

The .303 British was one of my first guesses and one of my first discarded guesses. Again, the 130 grain weight (and it doesn't look like much of the bullet has disintegrated to make the original any heavier) is not even close to a standard weight for that cartridge. Of course, it could have been a reload, but then if that's so, it could be a reload in any cartridge that accepts .308 bullets.

I was under the impression that you wanted to know what cartridge would use that bullet as one of its standard offerings. Too heavy for an M1 Carbine and too light for just about everything else.

Etraveller · October 28, 2008, 10:38 AM

Thanks so far for the info.
Actually Mal H, most important is determining the calibre of the bullet.
And any info on the possible type of gun, cartidge etc.

jimkim · October 28, 2008, 12:27 PM

In the early Eighties TC made eight-groove barrels. I am still looking through old magazines for 130gr RN FMJ bullets. I was thinking it might be an old 130gr 32 H&R mag bullet but I haven't confirmed it yet.

**Mal H** · October 28, 2008, 12:54 PM

Etraveller - apparently your definition of "calibre" is different from mine. Using different words (other than "calibre"), what are you looking for?

We already know the caliber if your measurements are accurate.

**Mike Irwin** · October 29, 2008, 11:13 AM

Sorry that I've not jumped into this thread before.

I've done quite a bit of searching on what this thing might be, but I'm completely stumped.

Given the bullet configuration, caliber, and its weight, the best guesses I can come up with right now are possibly a military multi-ball loading a light-weight training round.

Etraveller · October 30, 2008, 04:51 PM

Mal H posted: Etraveller - apparently your definition of "calibre" is different from mine. Using different words (other than "calibre"), what are you looking for?
We already know the caliber if your measurements are accurate.

Hey Mal H, the meaning of calibre (or caliber), is generally the same for this thread. (One being the British spelling, and the other, the American).

Using words other than calibre, I wanted to get info on the original diameter of the bullet, the type of bullet (round nose, FMJ), and also whether it could have possibly been another 'size' bullet and was squeezed/pressed or even custom made, into another size,
possible cartridges that originaly have that type of bullet or close to it, the type of firearm with 8 lands and 8 grooves, and any other petinent info.

It's a really interesting scenario in terms of this type of bullet, and it's somewhat mysterious to get to the 'bottom' of the origin of this bullet.
And btw there's another just like it, but it's deformed at the nose, so it's not just a coincidence, or one off occurence.

Thanks for jumping in Mike Irwin, I hope none of the vitriol is for me

And thanks to everyone for the posts so far, (anymore??)

T. O'Heir · October 30, 2008, 06:41 PM

What's the diameter in the middle? Or is that part deformed?
It's not a .303. A .303 British ball round uses a 174 grain .311" spitzer.
It might be out of a .30 Mauser though.

jaguarxk120 · October 30, 2008, 06:48 PM

The 30 Mauser bullet was 86 grain weight.

**Mike Irwin** · October 31, 2008, 10:37 AM

"I hope none of the vitriol is for me..."

Vitriol for everyone. I'm a very giving kind of guy!

Well, I've completely struck out. I have no clue what this bullet is or what it might have come from.

.45 Vet · October 31, 2008, 01:09 PM

I went through a few boxes of NORMA .30-06 130gr in the mid seventies, I still have some of the brass, but I could've sworn they were spire-points not R.N.

October 23, 2008, 09:43 PM	#4
Sturmgewehre Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 4,212	Humm, interesting. Not sure. __________________ Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more. Ex Mea Sententia

October 23, 2008, 10:17 PM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I can't find a modern 130 grain .308 or .309 RN bullet in my data. It could either be a rifle or a pistol bullet. 8 lands and grooves is an unusual configuration. I once had a retired French MAB in .32 ACP that had a .309 groove diameter. That's an awful lot of bullet length and weight for .32 ACP, though. Also too heavy for the 7.63 Mauser, which had 8" twist 6 land and 5 land barrels at different times, IIRC. Curious. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 26, 2008, 10:50 AM	#7
Etraveller Member Join Date: February 14, 2005 Posts: 60	Re: what bullet calibre is this Hey Jaguarxk120, the bullet is flat at the base with lead exposed. Mal H, it's not a test, but I really would like to get any info on it, because it's not a bullet that one comes across everyday. Did Mike Irwin read the post as you said Mal H? Does anyone else have any info to input? Last edited by Etraveller; October 26, 2008 at 10:53 AM. Reason: Left out a comment

October 26, 2008, 03:11 PM	#9
Etraveller Member Join Date: February 14, 2005 Posts: 60	Re: bullet calibre I've heard that it's possible to shoot a .38/9mm calibre in a carbine, and the bullet becomes pressed into shape along the length. How tr ue that is, I can't say since a .38/9mm has a larger diameter. Qs you said also, the nose is very rounded, and the rifling is along it's length. And yes the bullet appears to have hit an object. Hmmm.

October 26, 2008, 04:04 PM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The rifling runs the length of the bullet because this was a roundnose bullet to begin with. No mystery there. The question is where it came from, since a 130 grain roundnose is not commercially available, AFAIK? Also, what was it shot in that has 8 lands in a .308 bore? __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 23, 2008, 08:58 PM	#2
DIXIEDOG Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2007 Location: Maine Posts: 265	Without a casing I don't think there is any way to tell an exact caliber. A .308 bullet is an exact match for several calibers, it just depends on what casing it is pressed in.

October 23, 2008, 09:37 PM	#3
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	Well, the exact caliber is 0.308 inches, because that is the definition of caliber. But, if you want to know what cartridge that bullet came from, like DIXIEDOG said, you can't tell for certain. From the shape of it, it looks like it would be from an older cartridge such a 30-40 Krag, or maybe a 30-30. But both of those were usually loaded with heavier bullets. Mike Irwin should be along shortly with a better idea of what it might be. BTW, is this a test? Or did you find a mystery bullet that you are curious about?

October 24, 2008, 06:48 AM	#6
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	Is the base of the bullet hollow? The pictures are shadowed and I can not see the base clearly. At fire look it's a bullet fired from a 30 cal. carbine. The carbine tracer bullet was 0.88 inch long, and the ball cartridge bullet was 0.69 inch long. Hope this helps Tom F.

October 26, 2008, 11:09 AM	#8
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	The reason I asked is that the tracer round out of the 30 carbine is 0.88 inch long. If it was hollow that's where the tracer composition would have been. When Jacketed bullets are made some have a flat base and some have a slight hollow to them, The 147 grain full jacket bullet has a slight hollow and the 150 grain full jacket bullet is a flat base. Both bullets are spitzer boattail bullets. How did you come by this bullet it looks like it has hit some thing. What seens odd is that the rifling engraving run's the full length of the projectile and the nose is very rounded. Tom F.

October 26, 2008, 04:16 PM	#11
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	It's quite possible this is a custom swajed bullet! Most of the major bullet makers do not make a 130 gr full patch round nose bullet, they may make soft points in that weight but not FMJ. Someone could have taken a 9mm and reformed it into a 30cal. ether through a reducing die or in a custom swajing die. Check the base where the jacket is folded to the bottom. There may be some indication of re swajing or being pushed threw a reducing die. As far as shooting a 9mm out of a 30 carbine, possible to get a bare bullet into the chamber, would have tobe driven in. But then how would they shoot it out? easyer to just chamber the correct ammo. And why would they choose 130 gr (129) bullet? Tom F.

October 26, 2008, 04:27 PM	#12
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	I think it's a four groove barrel. What he may be refering to is the impressions left on the bullet. The engraving made by the lands, so it would be a total of eight marks on the bullet. Tom F.

October 26, 2008, 04:38 PM	#13
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	Etraveller - I think Mike Irwin viewed the thread, but I guess he didn't have an answer so no need to post to say that. He has the largest collection of cartridges and bullets I know of. But that one is a rare or unique one as far as I know.

October 26, 2008, 05:19 PM	#14
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"Average diameter at base .308-309 inches" That makes it a normal .30 caliber bullet. No way to tell from which cartridge it was fired.

October 27, 2008, 10:37 AM	#15
Etraveller Member Join Date: February 14, 2005 Posts: 60	Re: bullet calibre Hey jaguarxk, I double checked, and nope it's actually 8 land impressions, and 8 grooves, all separate. There is an actual possibility based on diameter, that it could be a .303 British, as some are made round nosed, FMJ, 130 grain, but i need to check on some of those to see if it's so. So the possible list has expanded, just need to do some more digging, and probably some more posts in other forums too! where there is a will, there is a way...(most of the time)

October 27, 2008, 01:21 PM	#16
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	The .303 British was one of my first guesses and one of my first discarded guesses. Again, the 130 grain weight (and it doesn't look like much of the bullet has disintegrated to make the original any heavier) is not even close to a standard weight for that cartridge. Of course, it could have been a reload, but then if that's so, it could be a reload in any cartridge that accepts .308 bullets. I was under the impression that you wanted to know what cartridge would use that bullet as one of its standard offerings. Too heavy for an M1 Carbine and too light for just about everything else.

October 28, 2008, 10:38 AM	#17
Etraveller Member Join Date: February 14, 2005 Posts: 60	Re: Bullet calibre Thanks so far for the info. Actually Mal H, most important is determining the calibre of the bullet. And any info on the possible type of gun, cartidge etc.

October 28, 2008, 12:27 PM	#18
jimkim Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2008 Location: middle GA Posts: 326	In the early Eighties TC made eight-groove barrels. I am still looking through old magazines for 130gr RN FMJ bullets. I was thinking it might be an old 130gr 32 H&R mag bullet but I haven't confirmed it yet. __________________ Jan. 4, 2007 gasoline $2.10 gal....HMMM?

October 28, 2008, 12:54 PM	#19
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	Etraveller - apparently your definition of "calibre" is different from mine. Using different words (other than "calibre"), what are you looking for? We already know the caliber if your measurements are accurate.

October 29, 2008, 11:13 AM	#20
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	Sorry that I've not jumped into this thread before. I've done quite a bit of searching on what this thing might be, but I'm completely stumped. Given the bullet configuration, caliber, and its weight, the best guesses I can come up with right now are possibly a military multi-ball loading a light-weight training round. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 30, 2008, 04:51 PM	#21
Etraveller Member Join Date: February 14, 2005 Posts: 60	Re: Bullet calibre Mal H posted: Etraveller - apparently your definition of "calibre" is different from mine. Using different words (other than "calibre"), what are you looking for? We already know the caliber if your measurements are accurate. Hey Mal H, the meaning of calibre (or caliber), is generally the same for this thread. (One being the British spelling, and the other, the American). Using words other than calibre, I wanted to get info on the original diameter of the bullet, the type of bullet (round nose, FMJ), and also whether it could have possibly been another 'size' bullet and was squeezed/pressed or even custom made, into another size, possible cartridges that originaly have that type of bullet or close to it, the type of firearm with 8 lands and 8 grooves, and any other petinent info. It's a really interesting scenario in terms of this type of bullet, and it's somewhat mysterious to get to the 'bottom' of the origin of this bullet. And btw there's another just like it, but it's deformed at the nose, so it's not just a coincidence, or one off occurence. Thanks for jumping in Mike Irwin, I hope none of the vitriol is for me And thanks to everyone for the posts so far, (anymore??)

October 30, 2008, 06:41 PM	#22
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	What's the diameter in the middle? Or is that part deformed? It's not a .303. A .303 British ball round uses a 174 grain .311" spitzer. It might be out of a .30 Mauser though. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

October 30, 2008, 06:48 PM	#23
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	The 30 Mauser bullet was 86 grain weight.

October 31, 2008, 10:37 AM	#24
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	"I hope none of the vitriol is for me..." Vitriol for everyone. I'm a very giving kind of guy! Well, I've completely struck out. I have no clue what this bullet is or what it might have come from. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 31, 2008, 01:09 PM	#25
.45 Vet Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2004 Location: Western Penn. Posts: 387	I went through a few boxes of NORMA .30-06 130gr in the mid seventies, I still have some of the brass, but I could've sworn they were spire-points not R.N. __________________ For those who've never fought for it, the price of freedom shall never be known...