30-06 case inspection question

Skunk Ape · September 15, 2010, 09:05 AM

I just shot a box of factory Hornady 150 gr. BTSP through my new remington 700. It is chambered in 30-06. Upon inspection of the once-fired cases, I noticed that nearly all of them have what appears to be a ring (for lack of a better term) around the case just above the head. I do not have calipers to measure the case, so I'm not sure if the "ring" is an area of expansion, or just a mark from my gun's chamber. I want to reload the fire-formed brass, but not if the cases will be dangerous.

I have read that head separation is a sure sign of a headspace problem. The cases aren't separated--they're not even close--but the "ring" is in the same spot where head separation would occur. I don't know how/why this would be an issue with a new model 700 shooting good factory rounds. I have not noticed any other high pressure signs on the brass.

Has anyone ever seen this before? any recommendations? Are these cases safe to reload?

Thanks.

Sevens · September 15, 2010, 09:23 AM

I see it often, but I'm a complete novice with rifles so I don't have the answer.

However, the old trick for looking for incipient case head separation is to un-bend a paper clip and bend a tiny 90-degree hook at one end and use it as a "feeler" to go in to the brass from the mouth and try to feel a ridge or a thin valley in that area from the inside.

woods · September 15, 2010, 09:20 PM

If it looks like this

It is common. A sign of a chamber that is a little large and the brass expands to fit the chamber. The expansion starts where the case becomes open inside and is no longer a part of the solid case head.

William T. Watts · September 15, 2010, 09:55 PM

It is the expansion ring and is the part of the case that isn't supported by the chamber, it is perfectly normal. If you have a micrometer the expansion ring will usually measure between .467" - .469"+. The key to all this is the Remington action is a strong action, the ammo shot in the rifle is factory, what you have described is normal.. William

Skunk Ape · September 15, 2010, 11:32 PM

William/Woods/Sevens--Thanks. I was worried I had something wrong with my chamber. Glad to know this is normal and that I won't blow up a case!

FrankenMauser · September 15, 2010, 11:32 PM

If it looks like the picture, it is a fairly normal occurrence.

However, it usually means the rifle has a loose chamber, or the brass is under sized. Neck size, and it becomes a non-issue.

Skunk Ape · September 15, 2010, 11:33 PM

@ Woods--That is exactly what I'm seeing. Thanks.

TXGunNut · September 16, 2010, 09:01 PM

Case head separation will be a bit further from the head and will not be a straight line; will look like a shiny, jagged line at first.

Smokey Joe · September 17, 2010, 01:10 PM

Skunk Ape--If you neck-resize those cases, and use 'em again in the same rifle, no probbie ever, with the expansion ring; the case necks will split with old age and re-working first.

If you full-length resize, then the expansion ring will have to be re-formed every time you fire that case, and of course you're re-working the brass at that point, and then you DO have to worry about the brass ageing and becoming brittle with the re-working.

But that's the beauty of reloading--you don't have to FL size the case! Just keep a separate set of cases for each rifle and neck-size them. You fire-form the case and make the expansion ring, ONCE, and that's it! In .30-'06 the cases will last darn near forever if you don't use heavy loads. (And best accuracy is usually not found at the upper end of the load range, anyhow.)

When you do start getting neck splits in a set of cases, you scrap the entire lot, buy new cases, and move on. I'm not going to anneal the cases and continue using them; some reloaders do so.

With magnums you do have to FL size the case after every few reloadings, at least IMX, and those are heavier loads anyhow, so those cases age much more quickly, but that's not what we are dealing with here.

GroovyMike · September 19, 2010, 04:42 PM

Yep, they should be fine to load up again.

Shrinkmd · September 26, 2010, 10:42 PM

I was just loading up some 223 Rem tonight, and I noticed on inspection that one of my loaded rounds has a similar ring, very close to the rim. I haven't checked all the others yet, but I will tomorrow. It also looks like your picture, woods, with a very straight, line which seems to have an edge on the outside of the case.

Later in the week I will take a picture, and then inspect the rest of the batch and pull that round to check the inside with a paperclip.

It was in WCC04 brass, fired three times (by me, same rifle, 5.56 chambered Bushmaster) and this is the fourth loading. The other two loads were not hot ones, and I have been using the RCBS X-die. I set it using a Wilson case gauge, so I am pretty sure that I am not over-sizing the brass. Although I am FL resizing it with the x-die.

So, assuming it is just an expansion mark in the larger chamber, is this a problem to shoot and reload? It just occurred to me that my chamber case gauge is for 223 Rem, but that the actual chamber is 5.56.

cdoc42 · September 27, 2010, 11:51 PM

I've found it is very difficult to detect the ring that predicts case head separation when using a bent paper clip. You can try with a very fine wire but it is still tough to do. I've also found it is difficult to measure the case head, watching for 0.001" expansion as a predictor usually because I'm not able to get the micrometer in exactly the same position from case to case.

What I have found over the years, as stated by another poster here, is the neck will split first, usually, but not always. But, for sure, if you fire your cases enough, one day you will see a real case head split, then you'll have a better idea where to look for it on the cases in the future, then you'll see the ring everyone is talking about.

The best way to get a case head split quickly is to have and oversized chamber and full-length resize your cases all the time. I had a Remington Model 700 with a chamber so large I could never seat a bullet out to touch the lands. The best I could do is seat the bullet and it still had to jump almost 0.250". I quickly learned about case splits because this is the rifle I started reloading with and in .270 I started with IMR 4895. That fast powder in a hot load locked up my bolt and when I could finally get it open, the case head came out but the rest of the case stayed in the chamber - the king of all splits. I've never seen it happen again in the 34 years I've been reloading.

Again, as stated by another herein you can minimize that by just neck resizing, or you can get tools from Stoney Point that allow you to resize your cases in your rifle so that the shoulder is only moved back 0.002" or so. I routinely do this which is probably why I see split necks before I see split heads.

But that's what's fun about reloading. You'll never finish experimenting.

Shrinkmd · September 28, 2010, 06:49 AM

I looked over my ammo, and many of the cases have the ring on them. You can feel a slightly raised line. Almost all of these rings are directly above the case rim, and on several they were nearly in the same spot. I don't think I used quite enough lube last time when I was resizing. I'm thinking that these are tool marks of some sort, and not signs that the case is about to blow.

I will try to get some pics up tonight...

ryalred · September 28, 2010, 06:06 PM

As others have stated, this is common.

Nnobby45 · September 28, 2010, 10:01 PM

Quote:

It is the expansion ring and is the part of the case that isn't supported by the chamber, it is perfectly normal. If you have a micrometer the expansion ring will usually measure between .467" - .469"+. The key to all this is the Remington action is a strong action, the ammo shot in the rifle is factory, what you have described is normal.. William

I agree that it's normal. That represents the thickest part of the brass that isn't able to expand tight against the chamber walls and, under all that pressure, it can only stretch backwards until it slams into the bolt face.

The point where it stretches from is the problem area. That's thinner brass tight agains the chamber walls that's thinned as the thicker brass pulls it backwards.

When case necks are growing longer or getting thicker, that extra brass had to come from somewhere. It works it's way forward (it flows) during the sizing process.

And, you can't solve the issue by neck sizing only, since the brass will loose it's elasticity and not contract after firing. Cases will stick. Better to full length size just enough for easy chambering and keep the brass "trained".

The ring that represents danger would occur in the thinner part of the brass that becomes even thinner as it stretches. It keeps getting thinner as you size, fire, stretch, size, fire, stretch, and so forth--until it separates from the case. Usually a partial head case separation that amounts to a crack allowing pressure to escape. A full blown case heas separation is a much more serious matter.

The begining of the crack can be felt inside the case with an angled paper clip. Don't rely on the ring before you start checking. When the ring occurs, it's progressed to far, and likewise, discard any cases if you can feel the crack wity a paper clip.

This is why you want to size your brass JUST ENOUGH so it chambers easily. Case stretch is cut down significantly that way--as opposed to always sizing all the way back down near factory dimensions.

Shrinkmd · September 28, 2010, 10:02 PM

So, I'm assuming it would be ok to fire these rounds and carefully inspect the cases for any fuzzy bright rings afterwards (as opposed to these crisper lines)?

Nnobby45 · September 28, 2010, 10:10 PM

Quote:

So, I'm assuming it would be ok to fire these rounds and carefully inspect the cases for any fuzzy bright rings afterwards (as opposed to these crisper lines)?

With proper sizing you don't need to worry until the cases have been loaded a few times. If you're just shooting factory ammo and aren't going to reload, then not to worry.

Check out my post again. I was in the process of editing when you re- posted, and hopefully it's sufficiently explained.

Shrinkmd · September 28, 2010, 10:19 PM

Thanks for the information. Like I said above, this is the 4th loading of this brass, and I was hoping to get another few loads out of it. I was loading 24.0 gr of AA2230 with Hornady 55gr FMJBT's, which according to Quickload is nowhere near the max pressures for this round. So, in theory unless my sizing die is way off, the brass should be ok.

I did notice some problems with the rims, more so with the PPU brass than the WCC brass, that I had to wiggle it into the shellplate to get it reprimed. So the brass is starting to show a little age.

Nnobby45 · September 29, 2010, 12:19 AM

When brass is full length sized, it grows longer (too long to fit the chamber) until it goes far enough into the die to set the shoulder back so it fits the chamber again.

There's no need to guess. Set your die so it just sizes the neck down to where it just contacts the angle of the shoulder where it joins the neck. You will feel a SLIGHT bump (cam over). This bump should be enough, but adjust as needed. Use a magic marker or smoke the case neck, if need be. This is for cases fired in your gun.

For cases fired in other gun, unscrew the die so the sizing action stops before it contacts the shoulder and work your way down in small steps (1/16th to 1/8th turns) until the cases chamber.

That's the key to long brass life. Size just enough to chamber the way you want it. Some like a slight feel, some like closing the bolt like nothing was there (recommended for hunting loads). If you size so there's a little feel, some will be tighter than others do to the elasticity differences in the brass. Make sure the tightest ones aren't too tight.

Once the die is adjusted properly, use the lock screw to keep the setting. Then you can remove the die and re insert later at the same setting.

VERY IMPORTANT: When testing the sized cases in your chamber, go easy and DON'T force it. If it's going to be tight, tap the bolt back up, remove case and size some more. You don't need a case stuck in the chamber.

If the bolt is almost down before it gets tight, you're committed. Force it all the way down--you've actually used your bolt to crush fit to the chamber--then tap it back up, remove, and size your cases until you get the sizing you want.

cdoc42 · September 29, 2010, 07:04 AM

Someone mentioned "X" dies - you cannot resize your cases just to fit your chamber as described using the "X" dies. If you do, you lose the supposedly limits case growth and the need to trim. I'm still not clar about how these dies work but I was told by RCBS, "You can't have it both ways."

September 15, 2010, 09:05 AM	#1
Skunk Ape Junior Member Join Date: August 31, 2010 Posts: 14	30-06 case inspection question I just shot a box of factory Hornady 150 gr. BTSP through my new remington 700. It is chambered in 30-06. Upon inspection of the once-fired cases, I noticed that nearly all of them have what appears to be a ring (for lack of a better term) around the case just above the head. I do not have calipers to measure the case, so I'm not sure if the "ring" is an area of expansion, or just a mark from my gun's chamber. I want to reload the fire-formed brass, but not if the cases will be dangerous. I have read that head separation is a sure sign of a headspace problem. The cases aren't separated--they're not even close--but the "ring" is in the same spot where head separation would occur. I don't know how/why this would be an issue with a new model 700 shooting good factory rounds. I have not noticed any other high pressure signs on the brass. Has anyone ever seen this before? any recommendations? Are these cases safe to reload? Thanks. __________________ Skunk Ape

September 15, 2010, 09:23 AM	#2
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	I see it often, but I'm a complete novice with rifles so I don't have the answer. However, the old trick for looking for incipient case head separation is to un-bend a paper clip and bend a tiny 90-degree hook at one end and use it as a "feeler" to go in to the brass from the mouth and try to feel a ridge or a thin valley in that area from the inside. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

September 15, 2010, 09:20 PM	#3
woods Member Join Date: January 6, 2010 Location: Houston Posts: 70	If it looks like this It is common. A sign of a chamber that is a little large and the brass expands to fit the chamber. The expansion starts where the case becomes open inside and is no longer a part of the solid case head. __________________ Guns have 2 enemies, rust and politicians

September 15, 2010, 11:32 PM	#5
Skunk Ape Junior Member Join Date: August 31, 2010 Posts: 14	William/Woods/Sevens--Thanks. I was worried I had something wrong with my chamber. Glad to know this is normal and that I won't blow up a case! __________________ Skunk Ape

September 15, 2010, 11:32 PM	#6
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	If it looks like the picture, it is a fairly normal occurrence. However, it usually means the rifle has a loose chamber, or the brass is under sized. Neck size, and it becomes a non-issue. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

September 15, 2010, 09:55 PM	#4
William T. Watts Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2010 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 1,074	It is the expansion ring and is the part of the case that isn't supported by the chamber, it is perfectly normal. If you have a micrometer the expansion ring will usually measure between .467" - .469"+. The key to all this is the Remington action is a strong action, the ammo shot in the rifle is factory, what you have described is normal.. William

September 15, 2010, 11:33 PM	#7
Skunk Ape Junior Member Join Date: August 31, 2010 Posts: 14	@ Woods--That is exactly what I'm seeing. Thanks. __________________ Skunk Ape

September 16, 2010, 09:01 PM	#8
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	Case head separation will be a bit further from the head and will not be a straight line; will look like a shiny, jagged line at first. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

September 17, 2010, 01:10 PM	#9
Smokey Joe Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2001 Location: State of Confusion Posts: 2,106	Expansion ring... Skunk Ape--If you neck-resize those cases, and use 'em again in the same rifle, no probbie ever, with the expansion ring; the case necks will split with old age and re-working first. If you full-length resize, then the expansion ring will have to be re-formed every time you fire that case, and of course you're re-working the brass at that point, and then you DO have to worry about the brass ageing and becoming brittle with the re-working. But that's the beauty of reloading--you don't have to FL size the case! Just keep a separate set of cases for each rifle and neck-size them. You fire-form the case and make the expansion ring, ONCE, and that's it! In .30-'06 the cases will last darn near forever if you don't use heavy loads. (And best accuracy is usually not found at the upper end of the load range, anyhow.) When you do start getting neck splits in a set of cases, you scrap the entire lot, buy new cases, and move on. I'm not going to anneal the cases and continue using them; some reloaders do so. With magnums you do have to FL size the case after every few reloadings, at least IMX, and those are heavier loads anyhow, so those cases age much more quickly, but that's not what we are dealing with here. __________________ God Bless America --Smokey Joe

September 19, 2010, 04:42 PM	#10
GroovyMike Member Join Date: January 20, 2006 Posts: 55	Yep, they should be fine to load up again.

September 26, 2010, 10:42 PM	#11
Shrinkmd Member Join Date: February 10, 2005 Posts: 84	I was just loading up some 223 Rem tonight, and I noticed on inspection that one of my loaded rounds has a similar ring, very close to the rim. I haven't checked all the others yet, but I will tomorrow. It also looks like your picture, woods, with a very straight, line which seems to have an edge on the outside of the case. Later in the week I will take a picture, and then inspect the rest of the batch and pull that round to check the inside with a paperclip. It was in WCC04 brass, fired three times (by me, same rifle, 5.56 chambered Bushmaster) and this is the fourth loading. The other two loads were not hot ones, and I have been using the RCBS X-die. I set it using a Wilson case gauge, so I am pretty sure that I am not over-sizing the brass. Although I am FL resizing it with the x-die. So, assuming it is just an expansion mark in the larger chamber, is this a problem to shoot and reload? It just occurred to me that my chamber case gauge is for 223 Rem, but that the actual chamber is 5.56. Last edited by Shrinkmd; September 27, 2010 at 06:08 AM.

September 27, 2010, 11:51 PM	#12
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	I've found it is very difficult to detect the ring that predicts case head separation when using a bent paper clip. You can try with a very fine wire but it is still tough to do. I've also found it is difficult to measure the case head, watching for 0.001" expansion as a predictor usually because I'm not able to get the micrometer in exactly the same position from case to case. What I have found over the years, as stated by another poster here, is the neck will split first, usually, but not always. But, for sure, if you fire your cases enough, one day you will see a real case head split, then you'll have a better idea where to look for it on the cases in the future, then you'll see the ring everyone is talking about. The best way to get a case head split quickly is to have and oversized chamber and full-length resize your cases all the time. I had a Remington Model 700 with a chamber so large I could never seat a bullet out to touch the lands. The best I could do is seat the bullet and it still had to jump almost 0.250". I quickly learned about case splits because this is the rifle I started reloading with and in .270 I started with IMR 4895. That fast powder in a hot load locked up my bolt and when I could finally get it open, the case head came out but the rest of the case stayed in the chamber - the king of all splits. I've never seen it happen again in the 34 years I've been reloading. Again, as stated by another herein you can minimize that by just neck resizing, or you can get tools from Stoney Point that allow you to resize your cases in your rifle so that the shoulder is only moved back 0.002" or so. I routinely do this which is probably why I see split necks before I see split heads. But that's what's fun about reloading. You'll never finish experimenting.

September 28, 2010, 06:49 AM	#13
Shrinkmd Member Join Date: February 10, 2005 Posts: 84	I looked over my ammo, and many of the cases have the ring on them. You can feel a slightly raised line. Almost all of these rings are directly above the case rim, and on several they were nearly in the same spot. I don't think I used quite enough lube last time when I was resizing. I'm thinking that these are tool marks of some sort, and not signs that the case is about to blow. I will try to get some pics up tonight...

September 28, 2010, 06:06 PM	#14
ryalred Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2008 Location: SE Oklahoma Posts: 491	As others have stated, this is common. __________________ ryalred rifle & muzzleloader -- exhilarating bowhunting -- obsession reloading -- addicted

September 28, 2010, 10:02 PM	#16
Shrinkmd Member Join Date: February 10, 2005 Posts: 84	So, I'm assuming it would be ok to fire these rounds and carefully inspect the cases for any fuzzy bright rings afterwards (as opposed to these crisper lines)?

September 28, 2010, 10:19 PM	#18
Shrinkmd Member Join Date: February 10, 2005 Posts: 84	Thanks for the information. Like I said above, this is the 4th loading of this brass, and I was hoping to get another few loads out of it. I was loading 24.0 gr of AA2230 with Hornady 55gr FMJBT's, which according to Quickload is nowhere near the max pressures for this round. So, in theory unless my sizing die is way off, the brass should be ok. I did notice some problems with the rims, more so with the PPU brass than the WCC brass, that I had to wiggle it into the shellplate to get it reprimed. So the brass is starting to show a little age.

September 29, 2010, 12:19 AM	#19
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	When brass is full length sized, it grows longer (too long to fit the chamber) until it goes far enough into the die to set the shoulder back so it fits the chamber again. There's no need to guess. Set your die so it just sizes the neck down to where it just contacts the angle of the shoulder where it joins the neck. You will feel a SLIGHT bump (cam over). This bump should be enough, but adjust as needed. Use a magic marker or smoke the case neck, if need be. This is for cases fired in your gun. For cases fired in other gun, unscrew the die so the sizing action stops before it contacts the shoulder and work your way down in small steps (1/16th to 1/8th turns) until the cases chamber. That's the key to long brass life. Size just enough to chamber the way you want it. Some like a slight feel, some like closing the bolt like nothing was there (recommended for hunting loads). If you size so there's a little feel, some will be tighter than others do to the elasticity differences in the brass. Make sure the tightest ones aren't too tight. Once the die is adjusted properly, use the lock screw to keep the setting. Then you can remove the die and re insert later at the same setting. VERY IMPORTANT: When testing the sized cases in your chamber, go easy and DON'T force it. If it's going to be tight, tap the bolt back up, remove case and size some more. You don't need a case stuck in the chamber. If the bolt is almost down before it gets tight, you're committed. Force it all the way down--you've actually used your bolt to crush fit to the chamber--then tap it back up, remove, and size your cases until you get the sizing you want. Last edited by Nnobby45; September 29, 2010 at 12:37 AM.

September 29, 2010, 07:04 AM	#20
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	Someone mentioned "X" dies - you cannot resize your cases just to fit your chamber as described using the "X" dies. If you do, you lose the supposedly limits case growth and the need to trim. I'm still not clar about how these dies work but I was told by RCBS, "You can't have it both ways."