Aurora Colorado mass stop - Page 2

Technosavant · June 6, 2012, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Women can kill you too.

Yeah, but then again, very few women are out there just killing cops at random. I think the point was that if they were looking for a MALE robber, why cuff all these random women too?

Maybe the Aurora cops had received a shipment of new cuffs and were looking to try them out, but this is looking more and more like a massive violation of the law and the civil rights of everybody at that place and time than it is a legit police move.

deguello · June 7, 2012, 05:04 AM

Am I really the first one to think of this? What if the robber was the one that sent in the tip, so he could have an easier escape route in another direction? Anyway, if I was one of the people there and I was suing for millions, I'd be willing to settle for $1 if the city fired the people responsible.

thallub · June 7, 2012, 07:08 AM

Judge Napolitano on the Aurora, CO cops:

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/06/06...d-bank-robber/

Quote:

The big picture here is that the police in this small Colorado town applied tactics that are forbidden by the U.S. Constitution, and which were perfected by the SS in Nazi Germany, in order to make their job easier. Nazi Germany had the lowest crime rate of any modern society; but it had no freedom. The cops and the SS regularly arrested groups until they found the person they wanted. We fought World War II in large measure to prevent such behavior by the government.

Here is the law. The government may stop a person temporarily–for a few minutes and in public–and ask questions of the person only when it has “articulable suspicion” about that person. The suspicion must be based on objective observations, not immutable characteristics (such as race or gender) or group characteristics (such as location or beliefs).

geetarman · June 7, 2012, 09:40 AM

This is starting to get VERY interesting.

Geetarman

BlueTrain · June 7, 2012, 12:18 PM

I don't know what the crime rate in Nazi Germany was, nor what it was in the US at the time. But I also know that in spite of many people being afraid of the secret police and the SS, there were also many people who supported them, happily turning in their neighbors. After all, where do you think the SS and the Gestapo were recruited? Same with your neighbors.

Life in the 1950s may have seem idylic from the distance of a half-century but you all fail to remember the perceived breakdown in both the social order and in real law and order, although it was worse in some places than in others. People generally wanted the police to act and mostly, I'd say they still do. You people may be afraid of government (in a vague way) and the police. Other people are much more afraid of other people, perhaps with some justification.

Another thing people prefer to ignore or maybe aren't even aware of is the pressure that some have to live under. A bank is robbed, someone is killed, and there is a lot of pressure on the police to do something.

BGutzman · June 7, 2012, 12:35 PM

Clearly a civil rights violation that should result in criminal charges against all officers involved and the city should be sued out of existance...

I truly believe in supporting law enforcement but this is not acceptable for any reason..

hermannr · June 7, 2012, 01:25 PM

I think this is going to cost that city a lot of money. Very clearly illegal. When they cuffed everyone, that scaled it up to arrest, and it will cost them dearly.

icedog88 · June 7, 2012, 02:24 PM

Quote:

When they cuffed everyone, that scaled it up to arrest,

Once, I was cuffed and the police report stated at that time I was not under arrest, I was being detained and placed in handcuffs for my protection!

Conn. Trooper · June 7, 2012, 03:05 PM

You can be detained, even in handcuffs, and not be arrested.

icedog88 · June 7, 2012, 03:18 PM

Conn. Trooper;
That's my point to a degree. But, detaining EVERYONE? Without a description of the suspects? Seems a bit out of line to put it diplomatically.

Conn. Trooper · June 7, 2012, 03:27 PM

I don't even have as big an issue with the detention if the information that the robber was at that loaction at that very minute, and that information was credible and reliable. I have an issue with the 2 hours. What could possibly take 2 hours to sort out?

I have detained people in good faith, thinking they may have been involved in an incident, only to find out through further investigation they were not involved. I can see that, I can't see the 2 hours.

aarondhgraham · June 7, 2012, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Once, I was cuffed and the police report stated at that time I was not under arrest, I was being detained and placed in handcuffs for my protection!

I hate that "for your own protection" excuse,,,
And that's all it really is,,,
A lame excuse.

It's so the officer can feel safer or establish easy control of a situation,,,
The only one I need protection from is the man with the handcuffs.

LE in general is slowly assuming authority that is not legislated to them,,,
I truly want Aurora (I lived there in the 70's) to suffer some financial damage here,,,
And if possible I would like to see the FBI come in and levy some charges for civil rights violations under color of authority.

But their argument will be that "it worked",,,
Thereby justifying a negative means with a positive outcome.

Aarond

.

zxcvbob · June 7, 2012, 04:10 PM

Can anyone tell if this is a real picture or if the kid was photoshopped in?

Salmoneye · June 7, 2012, 04:26 PM

Quote:

A bank is robbed, someone is killed, and there is a lot of pressure on the police to do something.

What did I miss?

carguychris · June 7, 2012, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Can anyone tell if this is a real picture or if the kid was photoshopped in?

I think the cops with the shotgun and the shield were photoshopped in. They are in sharper focus than everything around them.

Where did that picture come from?

zxcvbob · June 7, 2012, 06:10 PM

I saw the picture all over the place yesterday, but today it's mostly gone. I've also seen basically the same picture zoomed in just a little closer without the kid (but not close enough to crop the kid out of the shot.) The one I linked is at lewrockwell.com

BGutzman · June 8, 2012, 10:29 AM

The pic does seem to bare the artifacts of photoshop...

NJgunowner · June 8, 2012, 10:37 AM

Photoshop, and it's only passable by my standards

Fishing_Cabin · June 8, 2012, 11:45 AM

I had withheld my comments earlier because I thought they "had to have a concrete" tip to base this on. To quote the story:

Quote:

A GPS tracking device hidden with stacks of cash allowed police to track a suspected bank robber before a controversial traffic stop Saturday, according to testimony this morning.

Source: http://www.aurorasentinel.com/news/c...k-bank-robber/

Unsure of the exact details of the system, but while GPS is good at getting a rough immediate area to locate something, such as this tracking device, what this case will come down to is exactly how large of an area would be reasonable for the officers to detain and possibly search.

A rough rule to go by is if a LEO goes out with specific information in hand to find a suspect in a crime that already happened, the LEO is more solid in court. I feel this case may have a chance of going up the ladder to decide of where to draw the line.

**Aguila Blanca** · June 8, 2012, 01:27 PM

It may have to go up the chain a level or two but I don't think there's any question that the actions of the police were unconstitutional. The Supreme Court has made it very clear that a "brief" detention is allowable if there are specific, clearly articulable facts to support a reasonable suspicion that the person (or persons) being detained might be the criminal actor. I think "We got a GPS signal that he's somewhere in the area" is pushing the envelope of "reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts" on its own, but when you factor in that everyone was detained for two HOURS I think it clearly crosses the line into unconstitutional detention.

Don H · June 8, 2012, 01:27 PM

Good thing this robbery didn't take place at, say, the Town Center Mall in Aurora or the police would have happily inconvenienced a few thousand people with their "innovative" tactics.

Salmoneye · June 8, 2012, 03:03 PM

Don't suppose they could have let the guy just drive a mile down the road till they were sure it was THAT vehicle, huh?

*facepalm*

BlueTrain · June 8, 2012, 03:22 PM

Well, the Hardy Boys, who only used guns in two stories, would have tracked them down by their tire tracks in the dust.

MLeake · June 8, 2012, 09:30 PM

Salmoneye makes a very good point.

If they were tracking a GPS locator, one would think they'd track it to an area with fewer cars, fewer bystanders, fewer potential hostages and bullet sponges...

So I'd say this was not only constitutionally unsound, but tactically unsound.

Fishing_Cabin · June 8, 2012, 10:28 PM

Frankly I can understand the LE side of darned if you do, and darned if you dont. Looking at this from the outside it is a no win situation no matter what is done really. If they try to take them at the intersection we have what we have. If they tried to take them down the road, who knows what could have happened. We can go on with "what if's" for a long time...

I unfortunatly dont know of an easy answer that is always right. I am going to be watching how this case proceeds in the court system.

June 7, 2012, 12:18 PM	#30
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	I don't know what the crime rate in Nazi Germany was, nor what it was in the US at the time. But I also know that in spite of many people being afraid of the secret police and the SS, there were also many people who supported them, happily turning in their neighbors. After all, where do you think the SS and the Gestapo were recruited? Same with your neighbors. Life in the 1950s may have seem idylic from the distance of a half-century but you all fail to remember the perceived breakdown in both the social order and in real law and order, although it was worse in some places than in others. People generally wanted the police to act and mostly, I'd say they still do. You people may be afraid of government (in a vague way) and the police. Other people are much more afraid of other people, perhaps with some justification. Another thing people prefer to ignore or maybe aren't even aware of is the pressure that some have to live under. A bank is robbed, someone is killed, and there is a lot of pressure on the police to do something. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

June 7, 2012, 12:35 PM	#31
BGutzman Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: Frozen Tundra Posts: 2,414	Clearly a civil rights violation that should result in criminal charges against all officers involved and the city should be sued out of existance... I truly believe in supporting law enforcement but this is not acceptable for any reason.. __________________ Molon Labe

June 7, 2012, 03:18 PM	#35
icedog88 Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2011 Location: norwich ct Posts: 737	Conn. Trooper; That's my point to a degree. But, detaining EVERYONE? Without a description of the suspects? Seems a bit out of line to put it diplomatically. __________________ "The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps"-LtGen. Holland M "Howlin' Mad" Smith, USMC,1949 Have you forgotten yet? Look down and swear by the slain of the War that you'll NEVER forget. [Siegfried Sassoon,"Aftermath,"1919]

June 7, 2012, 04:10 PM	#38
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	Can anyone tell if this is a real picture or if the kid was photoshopped in? __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

June 7, 2012, 06:10 PM	#41
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	I saw the picture all over the place yesterday, but today it's mostly gone. I've also seen basically the same picture zoomed in just a little closer without the kid (but not close enough to crop the kid out of the shot.) The one I linked is at lewrockwell.com __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

June 7, 2012, 05:04 AM	#27
deguello Member Join Date: September 12, 1999 Location: tx, usa Posts: 43	Am I really the first one to think of this? What if the robber was the one that sent in the tip, so he could have an easier escape route in another direction? Anyway, if I was one of the people there and I was suing for millions, I'd be willing to settle for $1 if the city fired the people responsible.

June 7, 2012, 09:40 AM	#29
geetarman Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,157	This is starting to get VERY interesting. Geetarman

June 7, 2012, 01:25 PM	#32
hermannr Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2011 Posts: 730	I think this is going to cost that city a lot of money. Very clearly illegal. When they cuffed everyone, that scaled it up to arrest, and it will cost them dearly.

June 7, 2012, 03:05 PM	#34
Conn. Trooper Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 530	You can be detained, even in handcuffs, and not be arrested.

June 7, 2012, 03:27 PM	#36
Conn. Trooper Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 530	I don't even have as big an issue with the detention if the information that the robber was at that loaction at that very minute, and that information was credible and reliable. I have an issue with the 2 hours. What could possibly take 2 hours to sort out? I have detained people in good faith, thinking they may have been involved in an incident, only to find out through further investigation they were not involved. I can see that, I can't see the 2 hours.

June 8, 2012, 10:29 AM	#42
BGutzman Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: Frozen Tundra Posts: 2,414	The pic does seem to bare the artifacts of photoshop... __________________ Molon Labe

June 8, 2012, 10:37 AM	#43
NJgunowner Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2009 Location: NJ Posts: 1,254	Photoshop, and it's only passable by my standards

June 8, 2012, 01:27 PM	#45
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,459	It may have to go up the chain a level or two but I don't think there's any question that the actions of the police were unconstitutional. The Supreme Court has made it very clear that a "brief" detention is allowable if there are specific, clearly articulable facts to support a reasonable suspicion that the person (or persons) being detained might be the criminal actor. I think "We got a GPS signal that he's somewhere in the area" is pushing the envelope of "reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts" on its own, but when you factor in that everyone was detained for two HOURS I think it clearly crosses the line into unconstitutional detention.

June 8, 2012, 01:27 PM	#46
Don H Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2000 Location: SLC,Utah Posts: 2,704	Good thing this robbery didn't take place at, say, the Town Center Mall in Aurora or the police would have happily inconvenienced a few thousand people with their "innovative" tactics. __________________ Don http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/forum/

June 8, 2012, 03:03 PM	#47
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	Don't suppose they could have let the guy just drive a mile down the road till they were sure it was THAT vehicle, huh? facepalm

June 8, 2012, 03:22 PM	#48
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	Well, the Hardy Boys, who only used guns in two stories, would have tracked them down by their tire tracks in the dust. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

June 8, 2012, 09:30 PM	#49
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Salmoneye makes a very good point. If they were tracking a GPS locator, one would think they'd track it to an area with fewer cars, fewer bystanders, fewer potential hostages and bullet sponges... So I'd say this was not only constitutionally unsound, but tactically unsound.

June 8, 2012, 10:28 PM	#50
Fishing_Cabin Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2010 Posts: 720	Frankly I can understand the LE side of darned if you do, and darned if you dont. Looking at this from the outside it is a no win situation no matter what is done really. If they try to take them at the intersection we have what we have. If they tried to take them down the road, who knows what could have happened. We can go on with "what if's" for a long time... I unfortunatly dont know of an easy answer that is always right. I am going to be watching how this case proceeds in the court system. Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; June 8, 2012 at 10:59 PM.