Titegroup smoking like a blackpowder shot

Draciron · May 20, 2009, 08:27 PM

Fired off my first reloads with my .357 and all went pretty well except for some minor mistakes. When I got to firing off SCSWC using Titegroup I got big puffs of smoke every time I fired off anything I loaded with Titegroup. Didn't kick especially much or cause any difficulty but the smoke freaked me out. Smokeless powder isn't supposed to smoke like that I'd think.

Did I load the lead rounds wrong?
Is Titegroup supposed to do that?

The smoke wasn't just from the barrel, it was also from the cylinder. There was no pressure issues. The cases looked fine. I got good FPS for unjacketed bullets, up too 1180s in FPS. Didn't kick all that much. Did make a satisfying boom.

Sport45 · May 20, 2009, 08:28 PM

I'm guessing these were the only cast bullets you shot??

The smoke is from the lube on the bullets.

What is a SCSWC? I get the SWC part, but am not sure what you mean with the "SC". And what weight bullet are you using? Titegroup is a good powder, but it's really too fast for true magnum loads.

Draciron · May 20, 2009, 08:45 PM

Might be they were bulk bullets.

Meant to say SWC for Semi-Wad cutters. Yup only cast bullets I fired, though I used no lube to load them. Is it normal for bulk bullets to smoke like that? Should I clean them? When I cleaned the gun it was not especially dirty. I only fired about 10 cast bullets through it though.

Kendo · May 20, 2009, 09:09 PM

Man ... Dude .. I aint tryin to be rude at all .. you owe it to yourself to read some manuels. I know thats what everybody says but they say it for a good reason. Youre explanation tells on ya. I'm not tryin to be a know it all as a matter a fact I haven't even loaded my first round yet. Step away from the press and read, read, read.

Randy 1911 · May 20, 2009, 09:19 PM

What he meant by "the lube" is the bullet lube. It is a band of most likely blue waxy lube on the bottom portion of the bullet in a groove. Do not remove it. That is what lubracates the bullet as it goes down the barrel. Some smoke a lot, some don't. It is normal. If you don't like it, start shooting plated or jacketed bullets. Oh yeah, what caliber are you shooting and what bullet weight?

arizona98tj · May 20, 2009, 09:43 PM

OP said .357 but didn't give the bullet weight.

Draciron · May 20, 2009, 10:05 PM

158 gr is the weight.

Hmm thought the lube was purely for resizing, didn't realize it meant anything to the actual firing.

The smoke doesn't bother me. Just made me think something was badly wrong. If it's normal it's no big deal then. I strongly prefer jacketed bullets and will shoot them as much as possible but I'm glad to just FIND bullets nowdays. I don't know how it is where y'all are but locally bullets for the .357 almost don't exist. 158 gn bullets are all sold out online as well as quite a few of the 125 gn bullets. I figure before too long I'm going to have to cast my own if I want to continue shooting.

Kendo - Dude you are being rude. I have read the Lee manual cover to cover, watched YouTube vids, read every website I can find and the Hodgdon reloading annual. There is NOTHING anywhere I've seen about smoking bullets. I have shot some reloads now and I am a quick learner but I learn best doing stuff.

freakshow10mm · May 20, 2009, 10:13 PM

To read up on cast bullets, go to www.lasc.us and click on cast bullet notes. Grab a few beers. There's great information there.

Fast powders smoke more than slow powders. WSF is very lead friendly in that it produces less smoke. The lube also has a lot to do with it. When I casted bullets commercially, Red Carnauba was my choice and I had zero leading and zero smoke.

Aldadentist · May 21, 2009, 01:44 AM

I have used Titegroup off and on for a couple of years and have found it to have a smoky residue when shot at target velocities. It also leaves a carbon film in the barrel. Check your crimp and make sure your loads are in the midrange charge from the manuals and this will be reduced but not eliminated. Sometimes during rapid fire the smoke is very visible but this is just a small drawback for a very good powder.

dipper · May 21, 2009, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Kendo - Dude you are being rude. I have read the Lee manual cover to cover, watched YouTube vids, read every website I can find and the Hodgdon reloading annual. There is NOTHING anywhere I've seen about smoking bullets. I have shot some reloads now and I am a quick learner but I learn best doing stuff.

NO, he's not being rude...not at all.
He's giving you good advice,

From your thread on "Pressure issues with 30-06", it doesn't SEEM like your a quick learner and sometimes when learning by "doing stuff" you might learn the hard way.

Russ5924 · May 21, 2009, 11:26 AM

Have reloaded tens of thousands of rounds using Titegroup and cast bullets but have never noted the smoke? But I also keep my cast bullets down 800 to 900 FPS. Pushing a cast bullet up to 1200 FPS is just asking for leading. So what are you reloading in the .357

mnhntr · May 21, 2009, 11:31 AM

My tightgroup rounds with 158gr LSWC in 357 were great to shoot And didnt smoke anymore than any of the other powders I have used.

Doodlebugger45 · May 21, 2009, 12:30 PM

Interesting thread. I haven't loaded any 357's with Titegroup... yet. I just bought my first can of it a couple days ago.

So far, all my 38 Spl and 357 loads have all been with Unique and 231 powders. No smoke from them. I have shot a lot of cast bullets in the 38 cases, but only jacketed bullets in the 357 cases. I don't have a chronograph, but from the published data, I am sure none of my cast bullet loads are over 1000 fps. My cast bullets have a red lube ring around them. I'm not sure what kind of lube it might be. A couple people have advised me to keep the velocities kind of on the low side with lead bullets if possible. Some cast bullets are pretty hard and can be pushed to high velocities though. But so far, I have chosen to only put the cast bullets in the 38 cases with mild charges and use the jacketed bullets in the 357 cases for high velocities.

Now you have me curious about whether my Titegroup loads will smoke. Like the others have said, it's most likely the different waxes in the lube that account for the smoke. I did acquire some different cast bullets from a local source here but I haven't loaded any of them either. I noticed they had blue wax instead of the red wax I have been using so far. I'll have to see if that produces smoke. I guess it wouldn't really matter normally, but sometimes it might be kind of cool to have a load that belches out a bunch of smoke. I used to shoot a .44 blackpowder revolver and the smoke was kind of neat. But the cleanup was awful.

SwampYankee · May 21, 2009, 12:37 PM

All I shoot is lead bullets, my two suppliers have been Chey-Cast and S&S casting. The bullets are fine from both and the cost is very resonable.

Unique, Power Pistol, HP38, Solo 1250. It does not matter, they all smoke like hell. But that's because it is the lubricant that is burning. On the rare occasion that I shoot copper plated or jacketed bullets, the "black-powder" puff of smoke goes completely away.

tiberius10721 · May 21, 2009, 01:03 PM

Just a suggestion buy cast lead bullets for reloading 38 special and jacketed bullets for reloading 357 magnum it costs a little more but saves you a lot of trouble.thats what I do .:

brickeyee · May 21, 2009, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Hmm thought the lube was purely for resizing, didn't realize it meant anything to the actual firing.

The lube for sizing is on the outside of the case and needs to be removed before firing the cartridge.

Lead bullets have lubricant grooves on their sides.

As the bullet travels down the barrel some of the lube is smeared off onto the barrel walls and exposed to the hot propellant gases.

It burns and produces smoke.

It is also incorrect to think smokeless powder makes no smoke.
It makes less smoke than black powder, not NO smoke.

Just like stainless steel still can rust, it just does it less than carbon steel.

Better read the manual again.
And get another (or two or three) to check loads for typos.

Kendo · May 21, 2009, 04:07 PM

Draciron I'm not bein rude hoss I'm tryin to look out for ya. You don't know what your doin,Your bumpin pressures on 06's you dont know what bullet lube is your terminology dont make any sense if you know what you think you know.This is not an attack on you and I aint bein rude. You can learn this stuff but you got to put in the time with the manuels and ask the questions. I wish ya all the best, and I mean that. Slow down you'll go faster.

W. C. Quantrill · May 21, 2009, 07:48 PM

I bought a thousand remanufactured .45's that were loaded with titegroup. I had him load them at the top end for me. 230 grainers soft cast at the top end. Holy Smoke,,,that is the smokiest loads I have ever had. Now the trade off on it is that you dont get that huge ball of muzzle flash at night. Lots of powders give a muzzle flash like a flashbulb, but the Titegroup has the least, which is good when you have to do some serious social work in the dark.

mnhntr · May 21, 2009, 09:32 PM

What was your powder weight? I loaded mine at 4.8gr of tightgroup and the bullets were Oregon Trail laser cast 158gr LSWC.

AlaskaMike · May 22, 2009, 02:00 PM

One sure way to make cast bullets smoke like crazy is to get bullet lube on the bases. I wipe mine off prior to loading. Note that I DON'T wipe lube out of the lube groove--just the base!

Mike

Emerson · May 22, 2009, 03:15 PM

In my experience TiteGroup smokes less when loaded towards the warm side. The only smoke problem I ever had with it was with some really light .44 Specials.

May 20, 2009, 08:27 PM	#1
Draciron Member Join Date: May 19, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 35	Titegroup smoking like a blackpowder shot Fired off my first reloads with my .357 and all went pretty well except for some minor mistakes. When I got to firing off SCSWC using Titegroup I got big puffs of smoke every time I fired off anything I loaded with Titegroup. Didn't kick especially much or cause any difficulty but the smoke freaked me out. Smokeless powder isn't supposed to smoke like that I'd think. Did I load the lead rounds wrong? Is Titegroup supposed to do that? The smoke wasn't just from the barrel, it was also from the cylinder. There was no pressure issues. The cases looked fine. I got good FPS for unjacketed bullets, up too 1180s in FPS. Didn't kick all that much. Did make a satisfying boom.

May 20, 2009, 08:28 PM	#2
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	I'm guessing these were the only cast bullets you shot?? The smoke is from the lube on the bullets. What is a SCSWC? I get the SWC part, but am not sure what you mean with the "SC". And what weight bullet are you using? Titegroup is a good powder, but it's really too fast for true magnum loads. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

May 20, 2009, 09:19 PM	#5
Randy 1911 Senior Member Join Date: May 7, 2009 Location: Western Arkansas Posts: 273	What he meant by "the lube" is the bullet lube. It is a band of most likely blue waxy lube on the bottom portion of the bullet in a groove. Do not remove it. That is what lubracates the bullet as it goes down the barrel. Some smoke a lot, some don't. It is normal. If you don't like it, start shooting plated or jacketed bullets. Oh yeah, what caliber are you shooting and what bullet weight? __________________ Been Reloading 27 Years NRA Member Member Old Fort Gun Club www.ofgc.org

May 20, 2009, 09:43 PM	#6
arizona98tj Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 980	OP said .357 but didn't give the bullet weight. __________________ stu-offroad.com Largest Jeep TJ project site on the web! (now with guns)

May 21, 2009, 11:26 AM	#11
Russ5924 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Posts: 1,874	Have reloaded tens of thousands of rounds using Titegroup and cast bullets but have never noted the smoke? But I also keep my cast bullets down 800 to 900 FPS. Pushing a cast bullet up to 1200 FPS is just asking for leading. So what are you reloading in the .357 __________________ Russ5924

May 20, 2009, 08:45 PM	#3
Draciron Member Join Date: May 19, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 35	Might be they were bulk bullets. Meant to say SWC for Semi-Wad cutters. Yup only cast bullets I fired, though I used no lube to load them. Is it normal for bulk bullets to smoke like that? Should I clean them? When I cleaned the gun it was not especially dirty. I only fired about 10 cast bullets through it though.

May 20, 2009, 09:09 PM	#4
Kendo Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2009 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 103	Man ... Dude .. I aint tryin to be rude at all .. you owe it to yourself to read some manuels. I know thats what everybody says but they say it for a good reason. Youre explanation tells on ya. I'm not tryin to be a know it all as a matter a fact I haven't even loaded my first round yet. Step away from the press and read, read, read.

May 20, 2009, 10:05 PM	#7
Draciron Member Join Date: May 19, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 35	158 gr is the weight. Hmm thought the lube was purely for resizing, didn't realize it meant anything to the actual firing. The smoke doesn't bother me. Just made me think something was badly wrong. If it's normal it's no big deal then. I strongly prefer jacketed bullets and will shoot them as much as possible but I'm glad to just FIND bullets nowdays. I don't know how it is where y'all are but locally bullets for the .357 almost don't exist. 158 gn bullets are all sold out online as well as quite a few of the 125 gn bullets. I figure before too long I'm going to have to cast my own if I want to continue shooting. Kendo - Dude you are being rude. I have read the Lee manual cover to cover, watched YouTube vids, read every website I can find and the Hodgdon reloading annual. There is NOTHING anywhere I've seen about smoking bullets. I have shot some reloads now and I am a quick learner but I learn best doing stuff.

May 20, 2009, 10:13 PM	#8
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	To read up on cast bullets, go to www.lasc.us and click on cast bullet notes. Grab a few beers. There's great information there. Fast powders smoke more than slow powders. WSF is very lead friendly in that it produces less smoke. The lube also has a lot to do with it. When I casted bullets commercially, Red Carnauba was my choice and I had zero leading and zero smoke.

May 21, 2009, 01:44 AM	#9
Aldadentist Member Join Date: February 18, 2009 Location: Seattle Posts: 58	I have used Titegroup off and on for a couple of years and have found it to have a smoky residue when shot at target velocities. It also leaves a carbon film in the barrel. Check your crimp and make sure your loads are in the midrange charge from the manuals and this will be reduced but not eliminated. Sometimes during rapid fire the smoke is very visible but this is just a small drawback for a very good powder.

May 21, 2009, 11:31 AM	#12
mnhntr Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2008 Posts: 972	My tightgroup rounds with 158gr LSWC in 357 were great to shoot And didnt smoke anymore than any of the other powders I have used.

May 21, 2009, 12:30 PM	#13
Doodlebugger45 Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2009 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,717	Interesting thread. I haven't loaded any 357's with Titegroup... yet. I just bought my first can of it a couple days ago. So far, all my 38 Spl and 357 loads have all been with Unique and 231 powders. No smoke from them. I have shot a lot of cast bullets in the 38 cases, but only jacketed bullets in the 357 cases. I don't have a chronograph, but from the published data, I am sure none of my cast bullet loads are over 1000 fps. My cast bullets have a red lube ring around them. I'm not sure what kind of lube it might be. A couple people have advised me to keep the velocities kind of on the low side with lead bullets if possible. Some cast bullets are pretty hard and can be pushed to high velocities though. But so far, I have chosen to only put the cast bullets in the 38 cases with mild charges and use the jacketed bullets in the 357 cases for high velocities. Now you have me curious about whether my Titegroup loads will smoke. Like the others have said, it's most likely the different waxes in the lube that account for the smoke. I did acquire some different cast bullets from a local source here but I haven't loaded any of them either. I noticed they had blue wax instead of the red wax I have been using so far. I'll have to see if that produces smoke. I guess it wouldn't really matter normally, but sometimes it might be kind of cool to have a load that belches out a bunch of smoke. I used to shoot a .44 blackpowder revolver and the smoke was kind of neat. But the cleanup was awful.

May 21, 2009, 12:37 PM	#14
SwampYankee Registration in progress Join Date: November 1, 2008 Location: I can be found on a number of other forums. Posts: 1,333	All I shoot is lead bullets, my two suppliers have been Chey-Cast and S&S casting. The bullets are fine from both and the cost is very resonable. Unique, Power Pistol, HP38, Solo 1250. It does not matter, they all smoke like hell. But that's because it is the lubricant that is burning. On the rare occasion that I shoot copper plated or jacketed bullets, the "black-powder" puff of smoke goes completely away.

May 21, 2009, 01:03 PM	#15
tiberius10721 Junior member Join Date: December 22, 2008 Posts: 228	Just a suggestion buy cast lead bullets for reloading 38 special and jacketed bullets for reloading 357 magnum it costs a little more but saves you a lot of trouble.thats what I do .:

May 21, 2009, 04:07 PM	#17
Kendo Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2009 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 103	Draciron I'm not bein rude hoss I'm tryin to look out for ya. You don't know what your doin,Your bumpin pressures on 06's you dont know what bullet lube is your terminology dont make any sense if you know what you think you know.This is not an attack on you and I aint bein rude. You can learn this stuff but you got to put in the time with the manuels and ask the questions. I wish ya all the best, and I mean that. Slow down you'll go faster.

May 21, 2009, 07:48 PM	#18
W. C. Quantrill Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2008 Location: No Man's Land Posts: 354	I bought a thousand remanufactured .45's that were loaded with titegroup. I had him load them at the top end for me. 230 grainers soft cast at the top end. Holy Smoke,,,that is the smokiest loads I have ever had. Now the trade off on it is that you dont get that huge ball of muzzle flash at night. Lots of powders give a muzzle flash like a flashbulb, but the Titegroup has the least, which is good when you have to do some serious social work in the dark. __________________ NRA Life Whittington Center Life

May 21, 2009, 09:32 PM	#19
mnhntr Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2008 Posts: 972	What was your powder weight? I loaded mine at 4.8gr of tightgroup and the bullets were Oregon Trail laser cast 158gr LSWC.

May 22, 2009, 02:00 PM	#20
AlaskaMike Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 941	One sure way to make cast bullets smoke like crazy is to get bullet lube on the bases. I wipe mine off prior to loading. Note that I DON'T wipe lube out of the lube groove--just the base! Mike

May 22, 2009, 03:15 PM	#21
Emerson Member Join Date: May 9, 2009 Posts: 89	In my experience TiteGroup smokes less when loaded towards the warm side. The only smoke problem I ever had with it was with some really light .44 Specials.