Myths about black powder.

[jeager106]

Never heard tell of static spark getting hot enough to burn anything.
Static spark from a human walking on a rug for instance.
I've got Fadala's books & have to go with a bonafide expert on
the subject.

[B.L.E.]

Electricity itself does not set things on fire, the heat generated by an electric discharge does. If there is enough energy in the spark to raise a small amount of the powder to ignition temperature, it will set it off. Lightning even sets trees on fire.

Most common static discharges, with currents measured in microamps or even picoamps likely don't have enough energy to reach that critical temperature. On the other hand, an arc welder with 40-100 amps melts steel.

[Captchee]

don't think the powder by itself will go off. If anything foreign gets in it that will get hot from electricity the heat from it will set it off.

I have had very fine flash powder that was little more then dust go off . Thankfully with small 2-6 grain amounts . But as you say , could very well be the case . factualy i dont know . that why i said i believe it will go off . doesnt IMO really mater why , only that if everything happens just so , then for what ever reason it will .
kinda like someone wrongly thinking that a flintlock will not fire if you have not primed the pan.
but again , you may very well be correct .

Sam Fadala.
He's done extensive work with b.p., loads, static charges, hi pressure & so forth.

That Sam was a very learned fella is not in question .
However a lot of his knowledge was based around information that he had at the time or had filled in with what he deciphered to be true by his own opinion

Today , we have a lot of information that was not readily available in the past . Whole libraries , historic journals and countless numbers of other references are at our finger tips . Most times for nothing more then the asking.
Case in point , how many of you have had the privilege of seeing the museum at the Tower of London or any other countries national museums ??
How many of us have access to the libraries of congress or the libraries of foreign countries for that mater ??
How about the writings of the firearms Guild masters at Liege.

See the point im trying to make is that most of what we know or think we know about BP and its use in firearms has been lost and thus was being re learnedover the last 50 years .
Relearning the knowledge that was gained over 400 years cannot be brought back in one mans lifetime . It couldn’t happen 30 years ago and it wont happen today with the advent of the internet. The majority of times what we think we know is nothing more then re-inventing the wheel .

Add into all that, with today’s technologies , we can often times prove what has in the past only theory . For that mater we often find ourselves disproving what was once thought to be fact .
While I myself do not care much for the NMLRA , I do have to give them credit for publishing a lot of information even when that information is flat out contradictory to what folks have for a very long time believed . In some cases even dispelling historic information by proving it wrong with the use of todays technologies .

So while I agree that one should not believe everything the read on the net . What I suggest should however happen is that what you read , should be considered , weighed and researched . Thus one becomes informed instead of perpetuating an opinion which may or may not be fact just because someone wrote it in a book or wrote it on the internet on some forum . doesnt mater if its Fadalla , wakeman ,Hawks , Pope, Lindsey , Bridges.........

Factually we have far to much of that perpetuation , which somehow then becomes fact and eventually historic truth .

Thus we know that static electricity wont set BP off .
We know that the inline ignition dates as early and possibly earlier then 1710.
That the use of cartridges follows near the same timeline as muzzleloading application .
That conical type projectiles were being used well before the invent of the Minie.
That Sam colt wasn’t the inventor and father of the revolver and Gantline factually was near 200+ years late in being the first to produce a repeating magazine type , mounted volley gun .
That smoothbores , to include trade guns often did indeed have a rear sight.
We also know that famous figures in our history like Davy Crockett or Daniel Boone did not use 3F and prime with 4 as at that time there was no such thing .


anyway , just my thoughts on it

[Captchee]

Electricity itself does not set things on fire, the heat generated by an electric discharge does. If there is enough energy in the spark to raise a small amount of the powder to ignition temperature, it will set it off. Lightning even sets trees on fire.

Most common static discharges, with currents measured in microamps or even picoamps likely don't have enough energy to reach that critical temperature. On the other hand, an arc welder with 40-100 amps melts steel.
=============================================

thats the way i see it as well . again kinda one of those things where if everything happens just right you get one result . if one thing in the chain of events is just alittle off , then you get something diffrent

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

If Groex B/P was susceptible to static electricity set off. They I believe at Gorex would ship their powder in a Clay Pot instead of a metal can don't yaw tink.

[jeager106]

Well, like I said I'll go by trusted soruces that used scientifc means to make determinations, not internet drivel.
Perhaps many are missing some basic points?
Static, as built up in the human body, can not generate enough electricty to cause heat to build.
Black powder is coated with graphite which runs even a very, very, powerful electric charge around the outside of the kernel of powder.
Not my opinion, but facts based on lab results.
Do a little googling & you can find the same lab experiments that Mr. Fadala used as his basis for his conculsions, not his opinions.
As was said in the previous post much blk. is shipped in metal containers & it will not explode due to static electricty.
Case closed.

[4V50 Gary]

There used to be a video somewhere where an electrical charge was being directed towards some blackpowder. The powder did not ignite from it. There is probably some point that given enough electricity to heat up the powder, it can.

[Captchee]

yep Gary there was a video . im rather busy for the next few days , but i know i have some photo shots of those tests in a file here somewhere
i think i posted them here on the forum not to long ago ??

jeager106
being coated with graphite mean nothing as the graphite is part of the corning process.
Once the powder starts to break down into smaller particles or in the case of powder which hasn’t been corned then it plays little in the larger scheme of things .

In the end how much static it takes ???
The only thing the powder knows is that it has reached a temperature where it ignites
The real question then is ; what has brought the powder to the point of ignition if it wasn’t a static charge .
In the case where I had the flash powder go off , I suspect it was static . But I was also dealing with a very fine dust after grinding the powder very fine .
That was the one and only time I ever have had powder ignite.

[B.L.E.]

If Groex B/P was susceptible to static electricity set off. They I believe at Gorex would ship their powder in a Clay Pot instead of a metal can don't yaw tink.

To the contrary, a metal can is the ideal container for stuff that's easily ignited by static electricity. It forms a faraday cage around the powder.

A video demonstrating a car as a faraday cage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve6XGKZxYxA

[jeager106]

I know what a Faraday cage is & understand about the metal can.
I'm not at all sure that you do tho.
The "Faraday Cage" is most often made of conductive MESH, not a solid conductive material for good reason.
Anyway the Faraday Cage doesn't work any too well unless properly run to ground.
Basic prperties of electricty you see?
The video mentioned in a couple previous posts showing an electric charge
directed into a pile of black is the one of many demonstrations showing black
won't "detonate" or burn from a spark of electricity.
A "spark" from a welding rod is another matter entirely, it's not static.
I'll stay with proven scientific results, not internet speculation.
About black degrading & loosing it's graphite coating?
Really? We have proof of that? Black degrades? How?
Balck powder found in old cans well over 100 years old is STILL
100% alive & well.
This discussion is moot. Scientific tests have show even a very, very, powerful charge of electricity won't cause black powder to ignite.
Internet physics is a wonderful display of how dangerous a little knowledge can be.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

I know the static electricity theroy of non-ignition applies to store bought. {It having a graphite coating that helps to prevent.} Not so sure about home made screened though which lacks a coating of graphite? All the experiments with static electricity and B/P that I've seen were using store bought powder never homemade.~~ I believe it was one of Hawg Haggen's reply's to some others thread that showed a UTube video on such experiment in the past.

[jeager106]

I wouldn't make home made black powder thus can't comment.
To me it's not worth the risk of anykind to make it when it's available commerically.
I started this thread so black powder enthusists could post myths about black powder & have fun with it.
Had I known it would turn into a keyboard experts debates with little concrete information I'd never had started it.

[Captchee]

Now don’t put words in my mouth , where did I say it degrades ???
What I said was

being coated with graphite mean nothing as the graphite is part of the corning process.
Once the powder starts to break down into smaller particles or in the case of powder which hasn’t been corned then it plays little in the larger scheme of things .

Graphite is used as a polish its not added to the mix as the powder is made but added to the tumbling bins when the powder grains are corned . Thus its only on the out side of the grain . When that grain breaks or is broken , the exposed area is not coated with Graphite.
Thus when you take say 1F and crush it to make 3F or take 3F and crush it to make a flash powder , that one grain has been broke many , many times .Thus the graphite does squat.
Just because a grain has broken , does not in any way mean its degraded .

To me it's not worth the risk of anykind to make it

Ok so what risk ? One of blowing yourself up . Well now how do you think that would exactly happen if you made the powder away from any open source of heat . After all if static wont set the powder off then you should be perfectly safe as long as there is no open ignition source

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Now there's some clarity. I always thought the graphite coating came after its final grading not before. "See I just learn something again today Captchee."

[Captchee]

Sorry to confuse you but no it comes after final grinding when the powder is corned /screened into glazing drums. Or in the case of a seprate process of glazing , in which case the powder pressed , sized /corned , dried then glazed . What I was getting at when I said crushed to make 3f or 4f , I was meaning when someone takes an already manufactured and sized powder and then crushes it down further to purposefully make a smaller grain . IE taking 2F Goex and re grinding it to make 4F .

There are several different ways that were historically used to make BP . Early was the dry mix . Myself I have never made it that way as I have read that doing so was very dangerous . Frankly that way of making powder is probably where some folks get the idea that BP can degrade as the dry mixed powder had a tendency to separate . Or so I have read .
Next came wet mix where the components’ are mixed , dried and then crushed .
Then came along the corned powder . Corning is nothing more then sizing of the powder . thus giving a more consistant powder
Later it was found that by pressing then polishing the powder grains , you got better performance . Hence came the glazing drums .

By the later half of the 1800’s you start to hear mention of black lead being added to the drums . That black lead is graphite
Talking with Dan Phariss , who is a member of the ALRA and a very accomplished gunsmith and historian . Its interesting to note that the addition of graphite while helping in the polish and improving the ability of the powder to repel moisture, it also slowed down the burn and made the powder harder to ignite.
To quote Dan

In the late 1800's graphite (black lead) was added to the glazing barrels. The graphite both improved the polish and helped repel moisture. The disadvantages were that graphite made the powder more difficult to ignite, slowed its burn rate and made for a dirtier burn. The British Government specified that no "black lead" was to be used in the manufacture of powders to be used for military purposes.

Its also rather ironic that this brings up another one of the myths concerning the urine of menstruating woman making better powder .
One of the reasons that came about was do to how saltpeter was made and the assumption that since a menstruating females urine would be higher in nitrates it thus made better saltpeter.
It also should be noted that not all powder is or was the same . Even as late as WW2 the formula for % of mix as well as type of charcoal , differed country to country . So you had variances in powder .

Anyway , Myths are fascinating things because often times if you dig far enough back in a myth you can often find some level of truth however a lot of times the older the myth is , the more it gets twisted around and often turned into something completely off the wall .

This discussion is moot. Scientific tests have show even a very, very, powerful charge of electricity won't cause black powder to ignite.
Internet physics is a wonderful display of how dangerous a little knowledge can be.

I guess I missed this statement ..
So let me ask this . If that was the case then how exactly does the CVA Electra manage
to work when its design calls for a simple 9V battery to generate a charge that then allows the specially designed breech plug to generate a pulse “think of a spark plug “ that then instantaneously ignites the powder or pellets

[Rigmarol]

How convenient!

All the topics endlessly argued about all in one post!

[Hawg]

How convenient!

All the topics endlessly argued about all in one post!

We strive to please.