Defend a stranger? - Page 4

Gary L. Griffiths · January 18, 2010, 01:00 PM

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It is to act quickly and rationally. Don't futter around.

Exactly so. That's why mindset and training are vital.

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His hidden backup draws on me and we shoot it out, while I'm restraining the other.

Hey, no one in this thread mentioned the backup crook when you engage the obvious crook?

Guess I should have mentioned it, then. I use several scenarios in our simulators which were developed by California DOJ, in which you are off-duty whan a holdup happens right in front of you. If you intervene, you wind up shooting it out with the second armed gunman that you didn't even know existed. Their philosophy is, remain calm and be a good witness. That's exactly what I will do, unless I'm convinced someone is about to be killed or seriously injured, in which case I'll quickly check my 6 (and 3, and 9, and everywhere else I can) for additional threats.

BillCA · January 18, 2010, 10:52 PM

What was that Kenny Rogers song?
You've got to know when to fold 'em,
When to walk away ... and when to run!

The "Warrior" mindset is more than simply methods of engagement. It also includes methods of disengaging and/or avoidance.

Regardless of whether I'm carrying a 5-shot J-frame or a 17 round Glock, if I determine the odds are 2:1 against me, it is the right mindset to say "Not today, folks" and keep out of it. In such arrangements, you have to be good or very good. One of them just has to be lucky.

With that said, if you find yourself in that situation, you do what you need to do in order to survive it. Run, hide, scream like a little girl, escape. You're a poor witness if you're dead (episodes of Fringe not withstanding). Ideally it costs the BGs something too.

A wise street cop once told me that regardless whether it's on the street or in your own home at 2am, don't go looking for trouble. You might find it.

ScottRiqui · February 10, 2010, 02:37 PM

I've seen this issue touched on tangentially in this thread, but I'll ask the question outright:

If a firefight breaks out in a public place, and you have the opportunity to leave the area quickly without being observed by the shooter, do you leave, or do you try to engage the shooter? (Think of being at one end of the mall near an exit, and hearing gunfire/screaming from the other end.)

Does your answer change depending on whether you're alone or with your family?

BillCA · February 10, 2010, 08:11 PM

This very question was asked after the Utah mall shooting in which an off-duty officer stopped the assailant.

Generally - the consenus is that if you have the chance to vacate the area safely, that's what you do. As opposed to getting killed by police, the shooter or some bystander wielding a brick. If the event occurs at the far end of the mall, then you can help herd the public outside and be their "rear guard" if you're so inclined.

If with family, I think most of us would put the priority on getting the family to safety.

Speed Freak · February 17, 2010, 12:52 AM

It can be justified that you have the right to protect your self with deadly force if deemed necessary, if you truley believe your life is being threatened with deadly force even if you have a ccw or not, using a Firearm or a legal carring knife "Although I dont think I would bring a knife to a gun fight" but its called "Self - Defense". In that scenario you can say that yours and other peoples lifes are being threatened with deadly force for sure, in that situation I do not see my self worried about judges, hand cuffs or police, best saying there is "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

BGutzman · February 19, 2010, 10:27 AM

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Back to the original thread - I still get an avoidance of the issue whether self-sacrifice is mandated to act honorably?

Is it honorable to save yourself and your family, despite what happens to others?

If self sacrifice was necessary so be it..... I will get on top of that gernade for strangers. Honor is in our actions... All things die, nothing living lives forever... Would I try to live sure, but given the gernade (no alternatives) I would do it.

Certainly I will place my familys protection as a priority but that wouldn't stop me from taking action for others. (within the law)

I would not throw my life away by doing something I consider hopeless unless it allows others a reasonable chance to live.

Too many years of being a soldier and a patriot to not live this way.. Im no superhero but I have been under fire more than once or twice...

BillCA · February 19, 2010, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen E. Meyer

Back to the original thread - I still get an avoidance of the issue whether self-sacrifice is mandated to act honorably?

Is it honorable to save yourself and your family, despite what happens to others?

I don't believe you need an act of self-sacrifice to "act honorably". There's no real loss of honor in protecting your family as you evacuate them or cover them while they get to a safe place.

Nor is there a loss of honor if you engage, discover you're at the disadvantage, then disengage. That temporary distraction of the aggressor may have allowed one or more people to survive.

Is it better to throw yourself on a grenade and save the five people nearest you, or to engage, either putting them down or disrupting their ability to inflice mass casualties?

Speed Freak · February 20, 2010, 12:24 AM

Me personally would say that I would secure my family and then go try and help others and depending on whether or not I could neutralize the sit then i might do that its difficult to say to many " what ifs".

Glenn E. Meyer · February 20, 2010, 07:01 PM

In a shooting situation, how do you secure your family?

Easy to say. There have been cases where the secured family gets shot in the dynamic mix.

I guess I'm getting cranky on cliches.

BGutzman · February 20, 2010, 09:16 PM

You secure your family by dropping the BG(S), or at least making them very, very unhappy by hurting there feelings or being stern with them....

Atroxus · February 21, 2010, 12:03 AM

I don't think there is any obligation to assist. However if I was carrying in a 7-11 and a BG came in and started shooting at the clerk or anyone else I would probably intervene. My reason would be somewhat selfish though. For all I know when the BG finishes shooting at the clerk he could just as easily turn the gun on me, so IMHO I would be better off to start shooting at him before he starts lobbing bullets my way rather than after.

Speed Freak · February 21, 2010, 04:48 AM

Yes for sure drop that dude right in his foot steps and I agree that would be the best way you could make sure everyone was safer, but your right there are always casualties in sits like that but the wrong decision is not making one at all!

January 18, 2010, 10:52 PM	#77
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	What was that Kenny Rogers song? You've got to know when to fold 'em, When to walk away ... and when to run! The "Warrior" mindset is more than simply methods of engagement. It also includes methods of disengaging and/or avoidance. Regardless of whether I'm carrying a 5-shot J-frame or a 17 round Glock, if I determine the odds are 2:1 against me, it is the right mindset to say "Not today, folks" and keep out of it. In such arrangements, you have to be good or very good. One of them just has to be lucky. With that said, if you find yourself in that situation, you do what you need to do in order to survive it. Run, hide, scream like a little girl, escape. You're a poor witness if you're dead (episodes of Fringe not withstanding). Ideally it costs the BGs something too. A wise street cop once told me that regardless whether it's on the street or in your own home at 2am, don't go looking for trouble. You might find it. __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

February 10, 2010, 08:11 PM	#79
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	This very question was asked after the Utah mall shooting in which an off-duty officer stopped the assailant. Generally - the consenus is that if you have the chance to vacate the area safely, that's what you do. As opposed to getting killed by police, the shooter or some bystander wielding a brick. If the event occurs at the far end of the mall, then you can help herd the public outside and be their "rear guard" if you're so inclined. If with family, I think most of us would put the priority on getting the family to safety. __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

February 20, 2010, 07:01 PM	#84
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	In a shooting situation, how do you secure your family? Easy to say. There have been cases where the secured family gets shot in the dynamic mix. I guess I'm getting cranky on cliches. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

February 20, 2010, 09:16 PM	#85
BGutzman Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2009 Location: Frozen Tundra Posts: 2,414	You secure your family by dropping the BG(S), or at least making them very, very unhappy by hurting there feelings or being stern with them.... __________________ Molon Labe

February 10, 2010, 02:37 PM	#78
ScottRiqui Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 2,905	I've seen this issue touched on tangentially in this thread, but I'll ask the question outright: If a firefight breaks out in a public place, and you have the opportunity to leave the area quickly without being observed by the shooter, do you leave, or do you try to engage the shooter? (Think of being at one end of the mall near an exit, and hearing gunfire/screaming from the other end.) Does your answer change depending on whether you're alone or with your family?

February 17, 2010, 12:52 AM	#80
Speed Freak Junior Member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: Midland, TX Posts: 11	It can be justified that you have the right to protect your self with deadly force if deemed necessary, if you truley believe your life is being threatened with deadly force even if you have a ccw or not, using a Firearm or a legal carring knife "Although I dont think I would bring a knife to a gun fight" but its called "Self - Defense". In that scenario you can say that yours and other peoples lifes are being threatened with deadly force for sure, in that situation I do not see my self worried about judges, hand cuffs or police, best saying there is "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

February 20, 2010, 12:24 AM	#83
Speed Freak Junior Member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: Midland, TX Posts: 11	Me personally would say that I would secure my family and then go try and help others and depending on whether or not I could neutralize the sit then i might do that its difficult to say to many " what ifs".

February 21, 2010, 12:03 AM	#86
Atroxus Member Join Date: November 4, 2009 Location: Marysville, WA USA Posts: 88	I don't think there is any obligation to assist. However if I was carrying in a 7-11 and a BG came in and started shooting at the clerk or anyone else I would probably intervene. My reason would be somewhat selfish though. For all I know when the BG finishes shooting at the clerk he could just as easily turn the gun on me, so IMHO I would be better off to start shooting at him before he starts lobbing bullets my way rather than after.

February 21, 2010, 04:48 AM	#87
Speed Freak Junior Member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: Midland, TX Posts: 11	Yes for sure drop that dude right in his foot steps and I agree that would be the best way you could make sure everyone was safer, but your right there are always casualties in sits like that but the wrong decision is not making one at all!