Identifying the threat

the_pragmaticist · August 1, 2008, 10:16 AM

This gets covered but I've not seen any recent discussion and after reading a few stories on various boards I've been thinking about it a lot.

On June 13, a man was robbed and shot. He made a half dozen major mistakes and I'd like to think most of us would handle the situation better, although he's got a lot more training than many CHL holders. The article doesn't say if he was armed or not - I am assuming he wasn't.

So here's the obvious conundrum: Put yourself in his shoes, but definitely armed. At what point in that encounter do you draw? What if the BG's pistol had come out before the second request for money? Clearly this was going to be a casual murder (two minutes from my house, I might add) as the BG attempted to shoot the defender in the head after shooting him once in the gut. There's no rationale to deal with that sort of person so in my mind, the only escape was a defensive shooting. The truck may have been running which would make for an effective weapon as well.

Personally, I would have been moving quickly to close the door and get my car in gear as soon as I was approached by pretty much anyone at a gas station. There's no reason for social contact in that situation and it makes me uneasy when anyone gets near me there. The problem is knowing when to draw (which means you're probably about to shoot the guy). If he's got his weapon out, it's too late already.

garryc · August 1, 2008, 11:33 AM

Here's your choice, one I've had to make many times as a corrections officer. You can flee or attack. If you flee then your betting that he can't hit you before you find cover. If you attack, which is my prefered option, you are acting against his pre-concieved thought. He likely thinks that because he has a weapon you will cower. That is a pattern pre-formed in his mind. Upsetting that throws him off guard, it takes a second to recalculate. It's the same as the gun v knife situation, action done before reaction can occur. I'm not talking about drawing your CCW piece, I'm talking physical force. Get in and give him a shot to the face to stun him. Get behind him, out of his power. Then either flee or draw depending on the situation.

Threefeathers · August 1, 2008, 07:26 PM

Situational awarness is the key to survival in combat or on the street. It's too bad they we have to live that way, but it's true. He shouldn't have allowed the man so close without gripping his own weapon. Once the man pointed the weapon he should have complied with the money and then armed himself.

Gad one lesson is to be very aware of your surroundings when you gas up. Know where you are and make it quick.

Brian Pfleuger · August 1, 2008, 08:12 PM

If I'm sitting in my truck and the guy says "Give me your ___", that when the gun comes out.

"Alright man, I'll get my wallet....(thats right where I'd be carrying), soon as I see a gun... I don't know. Shoot through the door without exposing the gun first?

Dwight55 · August 1, 2008, 10:51 PM

I guess I would like to think that I would be smart enough and street aware enough to not get myself in a station like that at that time of day, . . . under those circumstances.

If that doesn't work, . . . I virtually never use pre pay, . . . use the old credit card, . . . it goes back into an available pocket, not in the wallet, . . . my back goes up against the van, . . . with the driver's door open, . . . and I am scanning all the time for Mr. bg, . . . never know when he will show up.

When he asks for the wallet, . . . I'll tell him to take a hike if he has no weapon, . . .

If a weapon is present, . . . big decision: is this guy going to be satisfied with only my wallet? If it only looks like a robbery, . . . give him the goods ad good riddance.

If that won't work out though, . . . I turn so my drawing hand is 180 away from him, . . . covered by my body, . . . make it look like I'm getting my wallet, . . . my 1911 comes out, . . . and 9 rounds later, . . . one of us is standing, . . . one isn't.

His demeanor and actions will dictate my response, . . . but he has by weilding a weapon, . . . threatened me with greivous bodily harm/death. I only need to be convinced he's bluffing, . . . and he gets a walk.

May God bless,
Dwight

c4v3man · August 4, 2008, 03:00 PM

If a guy asks me for $20, then I'll tell him to get a job, but if he tells me to give him my wallet/money/$h!#, etc, then I'm at least getting a hand on my weapon and yelling to draw attention to the situation. Anyone could ask you for change/$5-20, but only someone who is a threat would ask for more in my opinion. I can't see an unarmed guy asking for much...

Keltyke · August 4, 2008, 03:10 PM

Drawing is your FIRST option - shooting is your LAST. I'll pull quick - shoot slow.

elrod · August 4, 2008, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Situational awarness is the key to survival in combat or in the street.

+1!

Knowing what is happening around you at all times is critical. Be suspicous of everyone when you are vunerable, such as pumping gas or loading car with purchases. BGs look for these moments as times when you are distracted, and open to attack. It will slow you down to take extra care, but can foil a robber or purse snatcher.

diginit · August 4, 2008, 07:48 PM

Poor guy. In my opinion he made alot of mistakes. Telling the BG he was a cop was the first. Almost any BG will shoot at that point. Especially if they have done time.
He was reaching for his wallet to show him his permit to carry?

This is when the assailant fired. The BG probably thought he was reaching for a police revolver after his first announcement. He should have been. That way the thug wouldn't still be on the streets looking for another victim.
Never carry money in your wallet. Just give them an empty piece of leather and leave.
That's just my opinion of the situation. I really hope they catch the jerk.

Keltyke · August 5, 2008, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Telling the BG he was a cop was the first.

If he isn't, that's impersonation. You're right, the BG will tee off when he hears that.

Quote:

He was reaching for his wallet to show him his permit to carry? This is when the assailant fired.

Better he should reach for his gun and show the BG what he carried.

Never give warning, never give advance notice.

Draw, THEN announce your intentions:
"STOP or I'll shoot you!" If the BG is even possibly armed, simply shoot.

Clanky · August 7, 2008, 05:16 PM

Whoever it was, they were willing to kill a cop.

fm2 · August 7, 2008, 05:34 PM

Quote:

...... he's got a lot more training than many CHL holders. The article doesn't say if he was armed or not - I am assuming he wasn't.

Yes, but not training in the context of criminal assault. The BG wasn't impressed with "I'm a Marine and served in Iraq" or " I'm a cop" . The BG didn't care, he was determined to get paid.

Quote:

Personally, I would have been moving quickly to close the door and get my car in gear as soon as I was approached by pretty much anyone at a gas station.

It's hard to say if getting in the car would have been a fatal funnel or not. Getting pinned in the car with the BG in the open door is a really, really bad position. You need to improve your position continually.

Quote:

There's no reason for social contact in that situation and it makes me uneasy when anyone gets near me there.

Amen to that. Managing unknown contacts is a vital skill to train. ShivWorks has a great training program that works those unknown situations unarmed and armed from a distance to contact distance.

Quote:

The problem is knowing when to draw (which means you're probably about to shoot the guy). If he's got his weapon out, it's too late already.

That's both a timing and tactics problem. Two of the best training classes working on solving these issues are ShivWorks ECQC and USSA's CQT #240. These classes specialize in integration of handgun, edged weapon, and empty hands fighting skills. You work on re-gaining the initiative and continually improving position.

Check out the video to the right.
http://www.usshootingacademy.com/tra...rse.aspx?id=15

grdpounder · August 7, 2008, 09:34 PM

I had a incident on the way to work one morning, I stopped for gas at 4:30 am, there were two cars in the station one with two females to the left and one with a male in front of me.
As I got out of my truck the male finished and went into the store, one of the females also went into the store, when they came out the male went toward the car on the left and the female took a direct path toward me, shouting in a load voice about Good Morning yada yada. I then stepped out from my truck so she could see the USP .45c on my hip and her whole demeaner changed and she went back to the vehicle in front of me and drove off, at the same time the other vehicle left the station. I am pretty sure I defused the same type of situation.
Ed

the_pragmaticist · August 11, 2008, 03:45 PM

Lots of interesting commentary. The more I think about it (and after buying gas at night a few more times with my eyes wide open), I believe I would have had a weapon unholstered and held low as soon as a questionable stranger approached the vehicle in that situation.

August 1, 2008, 10:16 AM	#1
the_pragmaticist Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2008 Posts: 201	Identifying the threat This gets covered but I've not seen any recent discussion and after reading a few stories on various boards I've been thinking about it a lot. On June 13, a man was robbed and shot. He made a half dozen major mistakes and I'd like to think most of us would handle the situation better, although he's got a lot more training than many CHL holders. The article doesn't say if he was armed or not - I am assuming he wasn't. So here's the obvious conundrum: Put yourself in his shoes, but definitely armed. At what point in that encounter do you draw? What if the BG's pistol had come out before the second request for money? Clearly this was going to be a casual murder (two minutes from my house, I might add) as the BG attempted to shoot the defender in the head after shooting him once in the gut. There's no rationale to deal with that sort of person so in my mind, the only escape was a defensive shooting. The truck may have been running which would make for an effective weapon as well. Personally, I would have been moving quickly to close the door and get my car in gear as soon as I was approached by pretty much anyone at a gas station. There's no reason for social contact in that situation and it makes me uneasy when anyone gets near me there. The problem is knowing when to draw (which means you're probably about to shoot the guy). If he's got his weapon out, it's too late already.

August 1, 2008, 08:12 PM	#4
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	If I'm sitting in my truck and the guy says "Give me your ___", that when the gun comes out. "Alright man, I'll get my wallet....(thats right where I'd be carrying), soon as I see a gun... I don't know. Shoot through the door without exposing the gun first? __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

August 1, 2008, 10:51 PM	#5
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	I guess I would like to think that I would be smart enough and street aware enough to not get myself in a station like that at that time of day, . . . under those circumstances. If that doesn't work, . . . I virtually never use pre pay, . . . use the old credit card, . . . it goes back into an available pocket, not in the wallet, . . . my back goes up against the van, . . . with the driver's door open, . . . and I am scanning all the time for Mr. bg, . . . never know when he will show up. When he asks for the wallet, . . . I'll tell him to take a hike if he has no weapon, . . . If a weapon is present, . . . big decision: is this guy going to be satisfied with only my wallet? If it only looks like a robbery, . . . give him the goods ad good riddance. If that won't work out though, . . . I turn so my drawing hand is 180 away from him, . . . covered by my body, . . . make it look like I'm getting my wallet, . . . my 1911 comes out, . . . and 9 rounds later, . . . one of us is standing, . . . one isn't. His demeanor and actions will dictate my response, . . . but he has by weilding a weapon, . . . threatened me with greivous bodily harm/death. I only need to be convinced he's bluffing, . . . and he gets a walk. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

August 4, 2008, 03:00 PM	#6
c4v3man Member Join Date: June 14, 2008 Posts: 82	If a guy asks me for $20, then I'll tell him to get a job, but if he tells me to give him my wallet/money/$h!#, etc, then I'm at least getting a hand on my weapon and yelling to draw attention to the situation. Anyone could ask you for change/$5-20, but only someone who is a threat would ask for more in my opinion. I can't see an unarmed guy asking for much... __________________ http://www.concealedcampus.org/

August 1, 2008, 11:33 AM	#2
garryc Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 2,536	Here's your choice, one I've had to make many times as a corrections officer. You can flee or attack. If you flee then your betting that he can't hit you before you find cover. If you attack, which is my prefered option, you are acting against his pre-concieved thought. He likely thinks that because he has a weapon you will cower. That is a pattern pre-formed in his mind. Upsetting that throws him off guard, it takes a second to recalculate. It's the same as the gun v knife situation, action done before reaction can occur. I'm not talking about drawing your CCW piece, I'm talking physical force. Get in and give him a shot to the face to stun him. Get behind him, out of his power. Then either flee or draw depending on the situation.

August 1, 2008, 07:26 PM	#3
Threefeathers Junior member Join Date: June 7, 2004 Location: AZ Posts: 392	Situational awarness is the key to survival in combat or on the street. It's too bad they we have to live that way, but it's true. He shouldn't have allowed the man so close without gripping his own weapon. Once the man pointed the weapon he should have complied with the money and then armed himself. Gad one lesson is to be very aware of your surroundings when you gas up. Know where you are and make it quick.

August 4, 2008, 03:10 PM	#7
Keltyke Junior member Join Date: April 6, 2008 Location: Spartanburg, SC Posts: 2,933	Drawing is your FIRST option - shooting is your LAST. I'll pull quick - shoot slow.

August 4, 2008, 07:48 PM	#9
diginit Member Join Date: March 22, 2008 Posts: 34	Poor guy. In my opinion he made alot of mistakes. Telling the BG he was a cop was the first. Almost any BG will shoot at that point. Especially if they have done time. He was reaching for his wallet to show him his permit to carry? This is when the assailant fired. The BG probably thought he was reaching for a police revolver after his first announcement. He should have been. That way the thug wouldn't still be on the streets looking for another victim. Never carry money in your wallet. Just give them an empty piece of leather and leave. That's just my opinion of the situation. I really hope they catch the jerk.

August 7, 2008, 05:16 PM	#11
Clanky Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Posts: 66	Whoever it was, they were willing to kill a cop.

August 7, 2008, 09:34 PM	#13
grdpounder Member Join Date: July 13, 2006 Posts: 37	I had a incident on the way to work one morning, I stopped for gas at 4:30 am, there were two cars in the station one with two females to the left and one with a male in front of me. As I got out of my truck the male finished and went into the store, one of the females also went into the store, when they came out the male went toward the car on the left and the female took a direct path toward me, shouting in a load voice about Good Morning yada yada. I then stepped out from my truck so she could see the USP .45c on my hip and her whole demeaner changed and she went back to the vehicle in front of me and drove off, at the same time the other vehicle left the station. I am pretty sure I defused the same type of situation. Ed

August 11, 2008, 03:45 PM	#14
the_pragmaticist Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2008 Posts: 201	Lots of interesting commentary. The more I think about it (and after buying gas at night a few more times with my eyes wide open), I believe I would have had a weapon unholstered and held low as soon as a questionable stranger approached the vehicle in that situation.