Opinions for 5.56 purchase? Sig vs. Ruger

[zombie237]

Hello all,

I'm currently in the market for a 5.56 rifle and have narrowned it down to 2, the Sig556 and the Ruger SR556. In doing countless hours of research, I've come across many postings explaining the design flaw int he Ruger being "carrier tilt" in the gas piston system. Well, I decided to ask Ruger and see what they had to say and you can read below:

Dear Dustin,


Thank you for using the Ruger On-Line Customer Support Request Form.

Comment / question:

I have read reviews of the SR556 as I am currently in the market for an AR style rifle and am intrigued by your lineup addition. The question I have is in regards to the numerous website forums postings regarding "carrier tilt". I was wondering if you could shed light on this issue and let me know what Ruger's stance on it is in regards if it has been addressed or how it is corrected. I really love the look of the SR556 and am hoping to get the information needed to decide on my purchase.

Response:
1.Our patented two stage piston reduces the initial energy impulse to the carrier, which reduces the amount of tilting force during the carrier’s initial motion.
2.We have an enlarged rear diameter on the carrier, which reduces the amount of tilt.
3.We have removed a portion of the forward carrier rails, which re-directs tilting force away from the upper receiver to the buffer tube.
4.We have a radius on the rear of the bolt carrier which reduces the amount of wear on the buffer tube that might result from carrier tilt.
So, our design has less carrier tilt, has less force behind the tilt, does less damage when it does tilt, and what little force/tilt is left is directed to an inexpensive buffer tube instead of an expensive upper receiver.
Wear in the buffer tube, as a result of carrier tilt, will most likely be present to some degree in nearly all rifles. Once the wear pattern is established, it is unlikely to worsen over the life of the rifle. In the unlikely event the buffer tube continually degrades over time, the rifle should be sent back to us for review. Degradation in the buffer tube can be a concern if the top of the buffer retainer plunger (the small pin that holds the buffer in the tube) and/or the bottom of the relief groove of the carrier (which allows the carrier to travel over the buffer retainer plunger) starts to get wear.

If you need further information, please visit our website at www.ruger.com or contact us at:

Revolvers, shotguns, rifles, 10/22 Charger Pistol: (603) 865-2442
Pistols: (928) 778-6555
Serial Number History Information: (603) 865-2424

Please note: This e-mail is sent from a notification-only address that cannot accept incoming e-mail. Please do not reply to this message.

Sincerely,
Ruger Firearms


NOW, based on that reply, I'd like to get everyone's opinion on whether or not they would take that to mean that it's been addressed and remedied at least minimally or should I stick with the Sig556 as from what I understand it was actually designed around the gas piston system as opposed to just having it added. I appreciate all your help.

P.S. The Sig556 is just a MEAN looking rifle anyways, but I haven't really spoken to anyone in person who has one or has used one for a long period of time to explain reliability. The only place I've seen one at a local gun shop was on consignment and I didn't know whether to take that as not a good rifle or the guy got in trouble for the purchase by the wife

[Chipperman]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but just taking it from the text above...

It sounds to me like they are saying that their design minimizes any tilt, and that tilt is not really an issue anyway. It does not seem to say that anything was wrong or corrected. But what else would you expect from a Company defending their product?

If I were going to choose one, it would be the Sig.

[olyinaz]

Same boat - I've no dog in the fight and I actually prefer the gas system of the original AR design (I think this whole piston thing is, for most people, a solution to no problem) but I will say that I'm not terribly impressed with the Ruger design. I read a comment here (I think...) that I thought was very interesting: "When I looked at the new Ruger AR it struck me like they'd made every possible mistake you can make with a piston driven AR."

Now that's perhaps a bit harsh but honestly I think that the market needs to beat a path to other ARs so that Ruger either gives up on ARs (not what I want) or fixes the dang thing and makes it a market leading product like just about any Sig. When was the last time Sig or Sauer pumped out a product that was half-baked or sucked?

Nuff said.

Oly

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, if it were me, here are the questions I would have in response to their reply:

1.Our patented two stage piston reduces the initial energy impulse to the carrier, which reduces the amount of tilting force during the carrier’s initial motion.

How does your patented two stage piston reduce the initial energy impulse to the carrier without also reducing the carrier's ability to function when dirty, weak loads, etc.?

2.We have an enlarged rear diameter on the carrier, which reduces the amount of tilt.
4.We have a radius on the rear of the bolt carrier which reduces the amount of wear on the buffer tube that might result from carrier tilt.

These two posts are a bit at odds. Enlarging the rear diameter limits the amount of carrier tilt by making sure the carrier contacts the upper receiver before it can tilt too far. It also reduces the clearance between the carrier and upper receiver compared to a DI rifle (which some people already regard as being too tight in clearance).

However, if they have radiused the rear of the carrier, then that means they cut away some of the enlarged diameter in order to stop it from battering the buffer tube. I don't have a picture of the Ruger bolt carrier group handy; but I'd want to look at that and see if I can figure out what he is talking about or have him clarify this point.

The real problem at this point is that Ruger can say whatever they like. Until the rifle has been out on the market for awhile and seen some use, any flaws may not be apparent (see the H&K AR15 magazines for an example of this).

Whatever else you can say about the SIG556 (and I am actually not a huge fan of it), it has a true AK-style gas piston (not just a gas piston) and it has a lot more time and use under its belt.

That is just me though, if I had $1,500 to spend on either one, I'd probably go with a high-end direct impingement AR instead and just hose it out with 725 degreaser when it got so dirty I couldn't stand it anymore.

[zombie237]

That is just me though, if I had $1,500 to spend on either one, I'd probably go with a high-end direct impingement AR instead and just hose it out with 725 degreaser when it got so dirty I couldn't stand it anymore.

Bartholomew,

what would you consider a good ID AR? i've had 8 years behind an Army m16/m4 and kept clean they performed decently well, but i want a good one that's not going to break the bank. i was also looking at the mp15t if that's a thought. i can get it shipped to ffl for $1300 and aftermarket extras i'm looking at about $500 give or take. luckily my wife supports my choices for what i call my arms race. i never really messed with anything else for a long period of time and am by trait a heavy researcher in reviwers thoughts to see how well they perform in the long run. i understand ruger won't have the longevity information i'm looking for and i know the DI AR platform if cared for and well contstructed will last but if there's a better option (for example, sig's ak gas system of which the ak's could be beat to death and still perform) i'm all for it, thanks.


When was the last time Sig or Sauer pumped out a product that was half-baked or sucked?

oly, amen to that, my uncle is a retired texas state dps officer and their last sidearm issued was a sig, and that's what he's had as a personal choice ever since. sig is currently my front runner, but if i'm spending a cap of 2k, to include aftermarket accessories (at the best price i can muster), i want it to be as best as possible.

[Bond007]

I own a Sig 556, and, although I love mine, I would recommend the Ruger AR if you have any experience with ARs; unless, like me, there's just something you love about the Sig.

The Sigs have had their own issues with the carrier, see this thread on the Sig forum.

Mine hasn't had any problems and has operated perfectly, but you do lose a lot of accessories that are available to ARs (milspec stocks, pistol grips, rails, triggers and trigger guards, etc.). There's also a lack of after market accessories from Sig, and the fact that many of their accessories are poor quality items made in China which are re-branded with the Sig logo (take a look at their red dot site and flashlight).

The flip-up backup sights that come standard on some models are pretty sad as well. Mine have been replaced with the Sig diopter and front sight. Some complain about the quality of the Sig replacement sights, although mine have worked very well for me as backups, as I use an EOTech for my primary.

Plus, with Sig entering the piston AR market with their upcoming 516, I would question how dedicated they are going to be to continue building and supporting the 556. I'm hoping they treat the two as ongoing equals, but only time will tell.

Good luck.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

If you like SIG, you might also take a look at SIG's new AR15 variant which uses a gas piston. I haven't seen one personally; but the American Rifleman did a nice review of them recently. It looks like the bolt carrier is well thought out, though apparently they are being sued by LWRC over the design.

what would you consider a good ID AR?

Here are the features I would want in base-level 16" DI AR:

-16", chrome-lined, 1:8 or 1:7 twist with M4 barrel extension
-M16 bolt carrier group with properly staked gas key and MP, shot-peened bolt made from Carpenter 158 steel and enhanced extractor spring
-Forged 7075T6 Aluminium charging handle (or better yet, a BCM Gunfighter)
-midlength gas system
-pinned front sight base/gas block
-flattop upper with proper Picatinny 1913 rail specs
-stock trigger in the lower

Not absolutely necessary; but things I would definitely consider a plus:

-cold hammer forged barrel
-something besides a heavy barrel profile

I would shop around until I found a rifle that had those features at the best price I could find (and if it has other features as well, that's gravy; but these are the main ones I would look for). I would probably start my search by checking out Bravo Company Manufacturing, Noveske, Sabre Defence, Daniel Defense, MSTN, and maybe CMMG.

Note that this list reflects my personal preference towards the midlength gas system. If I wasn't hung up on that, I'd probably look at Colt, LMT and the S&W MP15-MOE line as well.

I'd also add Knight's to that list if I won the Lotto; but considering that you stated $1,500, I don't think they are going to fit your needs. They do make one impressive DI AR in the SR15; but the cost is also impressive and you start running into the same proprietary parts issue that the gas piston ARs have.

[Chipperman]

When was the last time Sig or Sauer pumped out a product that was half-baked or sucked?

Can you say Mosquito?

[zombie237]

touche, point chipperman. love -40

[darko]

Based on the representatives reply it would appear that some degree of wear in the area indicated is not necessarily a problem, may be normal, (to an extent) and should not progress beyond initial break-in. Initial signs of carrier-tilt wear may have been turned into more of a perceived problem than an actual problem.

I purchased a Ruger SR556 a few weeks ago and love it. I was in the exact same boat as yourself, (deciding between the Sig556 and SR556). Ultimately I went and looked at them side by side, fondled them, etc. and chose the Ruger. The AR platform has been around a long time and has a ton of products available for it; the Sig...not so much. I am not knocking the Sig, in fact, I picked up a Sig 522 on monday, (a 22lr version of the Sig 556) and love it. My advice would be to do what I did; go down to the dealer and compare-hold them both. Also, I too have read the carrier-tilt threads but have observed no abnormalities in my own SR after shooting. I don't beleive that you can go wrong either way. I had a choice between the two and happily went with the Ruger. Consider the following: most decent standard AR's go for around $1000, (base model). The Ruger runs for around $1400-1500. It has nearly $300 worth of iron sights, $300 Troy quad rail, $20 Hogue grips, $35 Troy rail covers, $45 worth of magpul mags, a chrome lined barrel, chrome covered bolt, and a chrome gas piston running your action. If you add that up I'd say that the Ruger is a pretty damn good value and dressed to go to the dance right out of the box. I love my SR, and I love my Sig 522. I wish that I could figure out how to post my darn pictures for you but I can't figure out how. At any rate, Sig, or Ruger you can't lose. (But I vote for the Ruger)

[darko]

Here is a picture of the 522 and SR side-by -side for comparison.

Or, not. I can't seem to figure the photo thing out.

[jdperry88]

DPMS......

[KChen986]

FWIW:

I just received a Sig 556 SWAT and have been playing around with it. I still prefer the AR platform. The bolt release is harder to actuate, the charging handle on the 556 is on the wrong side. It's too front heavy. I have to shift my grip to punch the mag release. Field stripping requires tools, it uses a pencil barrel (too heavy for just a pencil barrel). And the safety selector barely moves, making it harder to know what position the safety is on by tactile feedback.

I would go with a quality AR (Noveske, Colt, BCM, LMT) in direct impingement. Keep it well lubed and you'll stay clear of malfs.

[olyinaz]

Can you say Mosquito?

Not familiar with them but if they suck I stand corrected!

Seriously, why not forget both the Sig and the Ruger and simply get a nice high-end DI AR-15? So many nice and tried/tested/true versions out there to choose from - two grand will buy you something very enjoyable.

Cheers,
Oly

[RT]

I would echo everything Bart said in his previous post.
I'd spend my money on a real nice DI AR like a BCM, Noveske, Daniel Defense or Colt. If you absolutely have convinced yourself that you need a piston, then wait for the ACR, get a SLR-106, SCAR, or an LMT. Personally, I rarely clean my ARs. I just use quality mags and squirt some SLIP 2000 on the bolt carrier.
Ask yourself this: Why is Sig now producing the 516 when they already had the 556 available?

[Chipperman]

Why is Sig now producing the 516 when they already had the 556 available?

If we build it, they will come.



Sig is a business that happens to make guns. They want to sell as many guns and make as much money as possible. If there were a sudden resurgence of interest in matchlocks, you can bet Sig would jump on board.

[Tmblweed]

I purchased a Sig 556 Standard just a few hours ago. Every gun has its problems, but Sig has remained at or near the top for reliability for many years now. The piston guns are the new rage, but Sig has been doing it a good while. I know many AR fans don't like this weapon, but I really do. Also, if you decide to go the AR route then look at what Lewis Machine and Tool has to offer. Many think they are a cut above most of whats out there. Good luck and be safe.

http://www.gunsmagazine.com/Features/0508/Ftr0508.html

http://www.make-it-so.com/Guns/SIG/556/index.htm