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Old April 21, 2002, 10:20 PM   #26
MP Freeman
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Monkeyleg,

Aren't you a graduate of the TR experience yourself????? I thought I had seen a tour of the Ranch on a webpage you developed??? Or am I thinking of someone else???

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Old April 22, 2002, 04:49 PM   #27
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MPF, I'd love to be the graduate of anything ! It wasn't me.

I can't say I've ever gotten thumbed in the nose, so this is all new to me. How do you keep a decent grip on the gun without having the thumb over the top? Sorry to disrupt KS Freeman's great story, but this is a little confusing.
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Old April 22, 2002, 05:16 PM   #28
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Monkey, O.K. remember when we were on the weight pile at ST4. When you benched where did your thumbs go? Right, on the same side of the bar! Now remember when we were in the Selous Scouts what did the Sgt. Major say about our left/support hand on our FALs should be? Right loose. Same thing with the shotgun. It's counter to "instinctive", but more effective.

The strength comes from the hand pulling into the pocket that you checked with your left hand before you started shooting. It may seem counterintuitive, but some training is. That's why they call it skul. If I knew everything I would not need to study. However, the more I train, the less I know.
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Old April 22, 2002, 05:17 PM   #29
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Story??? No what happened at TR is true; the parts I could tell about the girls at Mad Dog's or the waitress at Chili's in Kerrville are just stories.
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Old April 22, 2002, 11:09 PM   #30
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Good report KS.

I've take several of Louis Awerbuck's shotgun courses and will have to get out to TR for one. Rich and I were there about a week before you for Team Tactics. Hope the weather was better for your trip than it was for ours

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Old April 23, 2002, 06:47 AM   #31
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My buddies report that Team Tactics is an excellent husband/wife class. (However, I is a Lone Volk.) Same would probably apply to LE pardners or publisher/editor.
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Old April 23, 2002, 08:05 AM   #32
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RE: starboard side thumb

How much (if any) support is lost when you put the thumb alongside?
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Old April 23, 2002, 08:32 AM   #33
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None when shooting.

Last night I noticed that I put the thumbs over when doing retention drills, but move my thumb out of the way when I go to the shoulder from CAR or other retention positions.
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Old April 23, 2002, 09:00 AM   #34
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Great report ! I always love to hear these trip reports to Gunsite or Thunder Ranch sounds like a great experience. I only hope to be lucky enough one day to go to one myself. Are there many non LEO's that attend these courses ? What about cost $$$$$ ?
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Old April 23, 2002, 12:07 PM   #35
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Denek? Takes money to do stuff.

Tuitition: $650
Plane: $300
Cabin: $70 per night
Food for the week: $30 (I stayed at ranch, no grocery stores)
rental car: $300 for the week
ammo: can't remember, but I paid $143 to TR, Inc. for the buck and slugs (and a book for the plane).
fun in Saint Tony's: a lot of dough

1/2 down on the tuition will reserve your spot at TR for non-speciality classes.

Most students at TR are non-LEOs. When I was a LEO I was the only one at my DHG1 class. Some skuls offer LEO only classes. I am unsure whether they fill them or not.

At higher levels there may be one or two. At TR's shotgun there were 2 Detroit Rock City coppers and a NASA policeman. All paid with private monies. The highest percentage of LEOs at a class I've take was Awerbuck's Pistol II. Half of the class of 20 were LEOs.
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Old April 24, 2002, 09:21 AM   #36
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Cool thanks for the feedback guys ! Not as expensive as I would have thought.
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Old April 24, 2002, 09:23 AM   #37
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Oh guess I should clarify why the LEO question....I have nothing against LEO's heck if the wife would go for it I would probably be one, just wanted to know how the ratio of LEO to non was...thanks again ! Dave
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Old April 24, 2002, 01:26 PM   #38
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Dave3006:

That wasn't my experience at LFI-2. At one point, Ayoob had all of us load up 5 shells in our shotguns. We were then timed to see how fast it would take to fire all five shots at a target, starting from low ready. Yes, a Benelli won the race. IIRC, the fastest time was something like 1.1 second (it's been a while and I don't have my notes with me...). I was the fastest pump gun, about 1.75 seconds IIRC. Is the Benelli faster? Sure. A lot faster? I might argue about that. Does it matter? Dunno.

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Old April 26, 2002, 08:27 PM   #39
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For those that do not quite grasp the correct thumb placement as I can be quite confusing, the June issue of "SWAT" (p.59) features Range Boss Pete of TR, Inc. firing a 1903 with his thumb out of the way of his nok. One picture is worth . . . .
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Old April 28, 2002, 05:10 PM   #40
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Anyone in the class use a bead sight?

KSFreeman,

Thanks for the report,

I'm wondering if anyone in your class used bead sights, and if so, were they as effective(speed, accuracy) as the shooters with ghost rings, rifle sights, etc?

Reason I ask is more often than not the 870 I get has a bead sight system. Also, do you(or anyone else) have any thoughts on the bead system?

Thanks again,

Dave
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Old April 28, 2002, 05:39 PM   #41
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Dave, to my memory a couple of guys were using beads. They had trouble at the longer ranges finding the proper hold. However, once they got it down, they were hitting the torso easily at 75 yards.

Nothing wrong with a bead once you understand how to use it. YMMV. For me I find that if I am not looking through a ghostring I have a tendency to "look over the gun" (raising my head), especially at short ranges where you need to be dead on.

I do not prefer the bead, but I believe you should know how to use just in case that is what you are fighting with. I don't carry a revolver either, but I have received training on it, just in case.
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Old April 28, 2002, 05:55 PM   #42
Dave Williams
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KSFreeman,

Thanks for the reply. BTW, do you recall what the Detroit PD guys were using for shotguns? I know they are issued Glock 22 pistols with Federal EFMJ ammunition for sidearms.

Thanks,

Dave
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Old April 28, 2002, 06:29 PM   #43
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Detroit Rock City coppers were both using departmentally-approved, privately owned 870s. Apparently the department issued ones are less than desirable.
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Old April 28, 2002, 07:36 PM   #44
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KSFreeman,

Shocking, a big city department issuing old battered guns, right? :-) At least you can use your own, good for them.

Thanks,

Dave
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