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Old October 7, 2009, 12:46 PM   #26
VHinch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spodwo
Specifically - what else does putting 500 rounds through do that polishing the ramp and hand racking the slide NOT do?
The advantage that shooting the break in period has over doing it by hand is that by running the weapon dirty for the first 500 rounds but keeping it lubed, you create a natural lapping compound that speeds up the process.

Break in is certainly over rated and over recommended, but it does have it's place. I have an affinity for Les Baer 1911's. They're built extremely tight, to the point of being difficult to rack by hand out of the box. Les recommends shooting them dirty but keeping them lubed for the at least the first 500 rounds (personally I prefer 1000). Doing this does noticeably loosen up the fit. It's worth noting however, that despite being tight and having break in recommended, not one of my Baers had any reliability issues during the break in period.

Furthermore, I'm not going to trust a new weapon for carry until it's seen at least 500 rounds, and that 500 rounds is usually shot during the first range session for me, so it's not like I'm even going out of my way to do it.
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Old October 7, 2009, 12:55 PM   #27
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Note on breaking in cars:

I didn't say new cars require a break-in period. I said new motorcycles do. This is definitely mentioned in HD owner's manuals, and by dealers and mechanics.

For cars and trucks, my example was after a head gasket replacement. Or are you restorers all saying you don't worry about breaking those in, either?
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Old October 7, 2009, 12:56 PM   #28
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Quote:
One think I can think of - the feed ramp gets "polished" by the bullet.
This is not a benefit from excess firing, if anything, an opposite effect...
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Old October 7, 2009, 12:57 PM   #29
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Furthermore, I'm not going to trust a new weapon for carry until it's seen at least 500 rounds, and that 500 rounds is usually shot during the first range session for me, so it's not like I'm even going out of my way to do it.
That goes without saying. But I also assume you mean 500 trouble free rounds.
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Old October 7, 2009, 01:00 PM   #30
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That's right! My bad... Motorcycles.... I still drive them like I bought them (old roller bearing bikes with reed valve carbs...) the new ones I thought would have been roller action by now...

Back on topic...


I imply don't believe in breaking in a piece. Plus I cannot afford it...
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Old October 7, 2009, 01:00 PM   #31
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The 'break-in period' is that time between buying a new weapon and having used it enough to feel comfortable that it will function perfectly everytime you use it.

Same applies for purchased used weapons, or for weapons that have been repaired or modified. If it takes 1000 rounds of flawless operation for you to trust it implicitly, then that's your break-in period. If you get to 1000 ( an arbitrary number ) and you still have qualms, your break-in period isn't over.
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Old October 7, 2009, 01:05 PM   #32
VHinch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturmgewehre
But I also assume you mean 500 trouble free rounds.
Of course, good catch. Just got to typing faster than I was thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by koolminx
I imply don't believe in breaking in a piece. Plus I cannot afford it...
By that line of thinking, do you believe in testing a gun for reliability before it gets carried?
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Old October 7, 2009, 01:11 PM   #33
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I'm all for breaking in handguns, barrels are another story.

I see the "break-in-period" as training. When I break in new weapons I am still hitting the target down range and getting extra training on malfunctions. Like chicken noodle soup, it never hurts to train extra on something so simple like clearing a malfunction.

After about (X) amount of rounds you feel comfortable with before putting it in a holster, at least you'll know when the bullets start flying and the adrenaline starts pumping you'll know that weapon well. What if you get into an awkward position and un-intentionally limp-wrist when discharging? Most of you experts probably won't ever un-intentionally limp-wrist, I know. But if you did, you wouldn't have to think to clear the malfunction because you've done it so many times.

just my $0.02

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Old October 7, 2009, 01:12 PM   #34
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i think its crap. cars do have break in periods. even back in the 80's for the motors and they still do now. but a gun is not a motor. it shouldn't need a break in. Especially if you drop 1000 or more on one. I would be furious.
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Old October 7, 2009, 01:57 PM   #35
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Old October 7, 2009, 02:19 PM   #36
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The last new 1911 that I purchased got sent back to Colt after 52 rounds. That is the number it took for me to realize that it had 4 different "issues" that should not have been there in the first place. Had I shot hundreds of rounds through this particular gun, I would have just made these issues worse.

Colt was nice enough to fix these "issues" (took two months) and this Commander has been 100% since. Tight, accurate, and reliable as it should have been out of the box.

I can buy "breaking in" as minor polishing, but as a solution to real "issues", not in my book. If it does not work right out of the box, it was not put together right; or is not being used for it's intended use. 1911s can be tight, and still run 100% when the shooter does their job. (And it may take some rounds to test that shooter and ammo.)
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Old October 7, 2009, 03:02 PM   #37
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Quote:
There is NO BREAK IN PERIOD for your engine!
I understand that you are in fact the first person to actually slice bread and all, but...BUT....BMW restricts the RPM's in their cars during break in. And if you ever read an automotive review magazine you will note that they ALWAYS refer to the performance obtained and whether it was witha green engine or one with X number of miles to break it in. Some of the bigger names do long term tests and will do 0-60 and 1/4 mile times at the beginning and at the end of the test to show the improvement after break in. All NASCAR engines are "broken in" on the dyno before being installed in a car.

Every brake manufacturer recommends running new rotors through a few heat cycles to break them in before fully exploiting their potential so as to avoid warping. Even the pads need to be "set" to avoid glazing.
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Old October 7, 2009, 03:33 PM   #38
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Is this a gun forum or auto forum?

I would prefer sticking to real information about pistols. The other stuff as entertaining as it is, is non sequitur to the discussion at hand.

Gunk lapping the pistol? Intriguing but how much does powder residue and lube rate on the grit meter? I mean - someone can say it but has anyone - other than it sounds like an idea - actually proved it? I tend not to let firearms get that dirty. Refering to one of my manuals - for the PT709 - it says to "clean your firearm every 200 shots".

Did anyone ever think that all this break in is an excuse not to honor a warranty?

Plus it seems that after 500 rounds and it still doesn't work right - you have wasted time and ammo getting frustrated - enough to "write off" the company in question.

My Sig P229 worked day one. No FTEs, no issues, and in re-reading the manual - no where does it say to "break it in" firing any number of rounds...

Even my little pt709 Taurus states nothing of the sort.

So? Who has examples of Pistol manuals that state "break in" required and suggest what that looks like?

Hmmm.....
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Old October 7, 2009, 03:39 PM   #39
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All I want to know is how does a thermos bottle know whether to keep something hot or cold?
AND.... How does the metal in a gun know when to stop wearing after the breakin period.

It would seem to me that any manufacturer who claims that their guns need breaking in if they malfunction right out of the box is saying that any gun that doesn't malfunction was not made to the same glorious high tolerances as the one that did.

I loved the sarcastic post about the manufacturer essentially saying they have gone to great pains making the gun pre out of sorts.

What they are saying to me is, "We threw this thing together with pretty rough machine work. We only used our best tooling to make it look good. Now we want you to burn up a couple hundred bucks of ammo to burnish these rough spots. It might work and it might not but when you finally send it back it'll be real easy for us to find the spots where it's binding and fix it a lot easier. Thank you very much for your support and understanding in the matter. You've made the right choice"

With the degree of accuracy a modern CNC machine is capable of these days it should not be a problem at all for every manufacturer to make an unreliably tight gun. Can you imagine the squealing, wailing and gnashing of teeth if a 400 buck Metro Arms or Armscor gun needed some breaking in? Oh my!!
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Old October 7, 2009, 05:36 PM   #40
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Tired of the automobile talk?

If some of what I read is true, why don't we make a paste of polishing compound, say some jeweler rouge and gun oil, and smear it on the parts which need to be smoothed. Wouldn't an ultra fine polishing compound speed the break in period and save on ammo cost?
I can quickly make a wood carving chisel scary sharp with water stones followed by polishing compounds and buffing wheels; it's all about removing surface "roughness" or imperfections until the edge is polished. The process of sharpening a wood carving chisel is simply bringing the metal to a highly polished condition; is “breaking in” a pistol different? The limitation is the metal itself; a poor grade steel will not take or hold an edge.
If I paid low to medium bucks, I’d expect a little break in period; however, if mega bucks had been shelled out, I’d expect the factory/shop to have done all the needed fitting and polishing.
If I get that Kahr that’s on my wish list, at the first hiccup, I may just try smearing a little polishing compound around to assist in breaking in the sucker.
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Old October 7, 2009, 06:42 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spodwo
Gunk lapping the pistol? Intriguing but how much does powder residue and lube rate on the grit meter? I mean - someone can say it but has anyone - other than it sounds like an idea - actually proved it?
I got that info directly from Les Baer in a phone conversation a couple of years ago. It is what he recommends for his 1911's based on the methods used to hard fit them. Those particular guns aren't production guns, they are individually hand fit, and with that hand fitting comes a degree of variance from gun to gun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spodwo
I tend not to let firearms get that dirty. Refering to one of my manuals - for the PT709 - it says to "clean your firearm every 200 shots".
I rarely if ever fire less than 250 rounds in any range session, and many will be 500. A three day class might entail anywhere from 1000-2000 rounds, and during none of the above do I stop in the middle and clean the weapon unless there's a reason to. Do you actually break down a weapon in the middle of a range session and clean it for no other reason than having fired an arbitrary number of rounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spodwo
My Sig P229 worked day one. No FTEs, no issues, and in re-reading the manual - no where does it say to "break it in" firing any number of rounds.
Of course not, and for good reason. It's a production weapon, the tolerances simply aren't tight enough for it to make a difference. Like I mentioned earlier, I agree that "break in" gets used a catch all to fix any issues a gun might have, and in that scope, I agree that it's a load of crap. However, in certain specific instances, it's legit. In my opinion, the only specific instance is on a true hard fit, not production, 1911, and even then it should be just to account for the variances that come with fitting by hand. The gun still has to function correctly, breakin aside. If there are true issues with the gun, the break in isn't going to do anything for them, and other measures are requried. In the 4 new Baers I've bought new and broken in as stated above, I had exactly 1 FTF in the combined 4,000 rounds of break in, and that was a primer on a reload that failed to ignite through no fault of the gun.
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Old October 7, 2009, 07:21 PM   #42
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A break in period does not mean the gun will have problems, it must means the parts need to mate over a period of time. In my opinion, if you are having problems with a semi-auto and the manufacture says it requires a break in period, there is a problem with the gun.

When comparing to a car engine, remember the break in period does not mean the car engine will not work, it just means let the parts mate over a period of time.

Direct from my Hummer owner's manual:
Starting and Operating Your
Vehicle
New Vehicle Break-In
Notice: Your vehicle does not need an elaborate
break-in. But it will perform better in the long run if
you follow these guidelines:
• Keep your speed at 55 mph (88 km/h) or less for
the first 500 miles (805 km).
• Do not drive at any one constant speed, fast or
slow, for the first 500 miles (805 km). Do not
make full-throttle starts. Avoid downshifting to
brake or slow the vehicle.
• Avoid making hard stops for the first 200 miles
(322 km) or so. During this time the new brake
linings are not yet broken in. Hard stops
with new linings can mean premature wear and
earlier replacement. Follow this breaking-in
guideline every time you get new brake linings.
• Do not tow a trailer during break-in. See Towing
a Trailer on page 4-50 for the trailer towing
capabilities of your vehicle and more
information.


As it states, it will just help it run better. And, in my life, I have found that after 5-6K miles, the fuel mileage increases due to the parts mating better. (Not an engineer so the terms might not be correct.)

I might also add that all Corvette engines are run at the engine plant prior to shipping them to Bowling Green. As a long time Corvette owner, and having lived in MI with plenty of GM engineers are neighbors, the Vette was discussed quite a bit on the weekends.

Back to the original subject....sorry for the break in of this thread.
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Old October 7, 2009, 09:16 PM   #43
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Personally, I think we've veered way off-subject....
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Old October 7, 2009, 09:28 PM   #44
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I disagree, Magyar

Analogies can be quite valid.

We're talking about metal surfaces mating up, so other mechanical devices do have some bearing.

However, just as a car or motorcycle should run during any prescribed break-in period, so should a firearm.
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Old October 7, 2009, 09:33 PM   #45
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Break-in period actually means "please test our guns for us because our manufacturing is marginal and our quality control sucks."
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Old October 7, 2009, 09:37 PM   #46
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However, just as a car or motorcycle should run during any prescribed break-in period, so should a firearm.
That's exactly the point....A vehicle during the initial miles will be running, functioning, cylinder clearance mating...In a firearm we are talking about a FTF in the same duration if a pistol has tolerances out-of-spec....
I think the analogy is faulty...
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Old October 7, 2009, 09:51 PM   #47
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What is the advantage of a close to custom firearm that doesn't work out of the box when I could purchase three Springer Loaded models with the same money?

I plan on purchasing a high end 1911 next year and this is the sort of thing that makes me hesitate. I usually purchase three firearms a year. One of these would be all I would allow myself next year. I would be VERY disappointed if I purchased my only firearm of the year and I had to spend $500 in ammo to 'smooth" it out.

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Old October 7, 2009, 10:32 PM   #48
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This thread is an eye opener... I'm not ever going to buy a new gun now cause I can't afford the dang ammo to break it in...

Yankee Traveler. I did slice the first loaf of bread, but I did it with a karate chop not a knife...

It is TRUE that a motor will run smoother with a little wear in it that will open the clearances a tad. But the y don't need to break in.

The first time you crank an engine it begins to break down. It never get's better only worse. Like a firearm, they either shoot good from the first round down the barrel, or they need to be repaired....

Later folks

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Old October 8, 2009, 08:44 AM   #49
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I do not believe a firearm should have to be "broken in", it should run right out of the box. But as with all types of equipment or mechanical devices parts will wear together with use.
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Old October 8, 2009, 09:38 AM   #50
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There are huge differences between cars and guns. Where I do believe that cars need a break-in period, I don't believe that guns (excluding custom target barreled rifles) do.

Cars have many, many more moving parts. They move at higher RPM's and for much longer sustained periods of time. They are made with at least two different cooling systems - oil and water-based, so that the engine gets to an opperating temperature quickly and stays right at that temperature.

An 8 cylinder car does more work in just one revoluion, than a 1911 does shooing an entire magazine. A gun is more like a sewing machine - it might opperate a little more reliably (might) after it's been shot 1000 times, but if you don't give it a break-in period, it's not going to seize up on you.
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