Setting Rifle Dies

[flashhole]

I want to see a picture of the 103" fish.

[wogpotter]

I want to see a picture of the 103" fish.

Your wish is my command, Effendi!

[flashhole]

WOW! What is it?

[wncchester]

"...to screw in their full length sizer until it touches the shell holder and then screw the die in another 1/8-1/4 turn. In a perfect world this works great but what if your chamber is slightly over or undersized? How do the "experienced" reloaders determine how to set their rifle dies?"

Well, you will have noticed there are no precision calibration marks on dies to tell us exactly what to turn where. You may also recognise there's quite a bit of difference between 1/8 and 1/4 turn (about 8 thou actually, more than the full min to max range of "acceptable" headspace) but it's bettter to be less than half that off the actual fit.

When you take the fact that every manufactored part has a tolerance range - rifle chambers, dies, shell holders included - and presses vary in spring and even the type and amount of case lube used will affect how much a given case will be sized and add the slight variable in spring between cases you can understand why no rote method of die adjustment is possible; meaning we work for results, not by a secret method.

Most reloaders simply jam their cases as far into the sizer as they can get them. More skillful loaders think about what they're doing and adjust their sizers to obtain the desired goal. Basically that requires backing the sizer off contact maybe 1/8 turn, then sizing and checking the fit in truly small steps - not more thaan 1/16 turn - until the cases chamber without force.

[Bart B.]

Send a PM to Unclenick thanking him for his info and labels shown in the link below:

http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/a...justment-1.jpg

Study this and you'll see why 1/8th turn of the die moves it about .009" up or down. Which is why I suggest making die adjustments no finer than 1/16th turn. With 14 threads per inch on the dies, one turn moves it about 0.07143 inch.

[Heavy Metal 1]

I set them up to give just a slightly snug fit w/ bolt closing (bolt action only of course); I found it to be a trial and error process as I do not have the Hornady set or the RCBS precision mic. I bump the shoulder just enough. I have 4 8MM rifles which each have slightly different chambers. Using the method above I was able to find them in order of chamber size. I set the die for the smallest chamber then add automobile valve shims under the die to set the die for resizing just so for each rifle. It took a bit of experimentation to figure this out, but now that I have it figured I can quickly set the die for whatever of the rifles I decide to load for. I don't have to fiddle w/ the die itself, I just add the appropriate number of shims.

[wogpotter]

WOW! What is it?

Not a clue, sorry.
I just googled "huge fish" & this was the closest I found to an estimated 103"

[flashhole]

Death and pox on you for making us think you actually caught the big fish.

[Bart B.]

Heavy Metal 1, what's your reasons for setting dies up to give just a slightly snug fit w/ bolt closing?

[wogpotter]

Death and pox on you

[Bart B.]

Here's one with a 103 inch girth:



This world-record's info is shown in:

http://www.southfloridasharkclub.com...pic.php?p=4543

[F. Guffey]

“When benchresters used to neck only size their rimless bottleneck cases, after a few reloads per case the bolt would start to bind on them when chambered 'cause the case headspace was now a tiny bit longer than chamber headspace. Accuracy was noticably worse. So they had to resize the cases setting the shoulder back a few thousandths to let the bolt close on a chambered round without binding”

“ 'cause the case headspace was now a tiny bit longer than’ “

Bart B. I understand your are a very prolific contributor and disseminator of information. The case does not have head space, the case has length from the shoulder to the head of the case. The chamber has head space, the head space is measured from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face. Bench resters? There had to be a reason for the bench rester to go for the third firing, I would think the third attempt at neck sizing was caused by success of the first 2 attempts........at neck sizing.

And then? Leads mne to believe they, the bench resters went from knowing nothing to purchasing an expansive rifle then spent too much time on a bench rester forum, I do not suggest someone go straight to bench rester status with out spending time in grade, like get a good grip on the basics.

Basics, reloaders believe the case maintains the same texture from beginning to end. If that is true I will tell you how unfair that is, my cases acquire a resistance to sizing, the resistance to sizing is accumulative, the more I fire the case the ‘tuffer’ it is to size, reloaders claim the case must be fired 5 rimes before the case is full grown, and I have ask how is possible? If the case is fully grown after 5 firings the case has also become more resistance to sizing, and I ask, how impossible it that? The recommendation is to start over by full length sizing, after 5 firings the case has become more resistance to sizing, more resistance to sizing requires more effort.

It is not magic, it is discipline, it was not that long ago when bench resters? were recommending greasing the case and chamber for slide and glide forming (short cut to forming without the basic fundamentals of forming before firing). Then they were put on a guilt trip and now they no longer greases the chamber and or case when forming cases.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

"I set the die for the smallest chamber then add automobile valve shims under the die to set the die for resizing just so for each rifle"

Valve spring shims, there are token shims, .015" thick, then there is the inside diameter, in the perfect world for a die shim the inside diameter would be closed to .875 or 7/8".

Most shims are beyond the difference between minimum length and field reject chamber length. Then there is that little bit of thought that someone would put into using shims beneath the die lock ring, for that to make sense the reloader would be required to lock the ring to the die. Adding shims would require removing the die to add shims.

I do not lock the ring to the die, I lock the die to the press with the lock ring, I adjust the die in the press every time. I use a feeler gage, not fair, I am the only case former, wildcatter reloader that does not have cases that do not increase in resistance to sizing.

There are times the case wins, other times the press wins, how is a reloader to know? The feeler gage, it is possible to measure the gap between the die and shell holder when the ram is raised, most assume the case it sized because the die is adjusted, I don't assume anything.

You stated you add shims beneath the die, I assume you are using the shims beneath the lock ring on top of the press, something like Skip's shims, or adding a shim beneath the lock ring when going from 38 Special to 357 Magnum on the seater die.

F. Guffey

[flashhole]

Can you post a picture of your shims?

[F. Guffey]

http://www.google.com/#bav=on.2,or.r...p&ved=0CCoQsxg

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

"....your shims? "

Forgive, I have no clue what shim he is using, there are not many of the shims listed I do not have, in the old days I made tools for machinist. They did not have time do the work correctly and were willing to do the work again, for free. Point? there is not a point, the mechanic that removed the heads and reinstalled them also had to do the work again, for free.

There are shims that have a better choice of thickness, some engines have no way of adjusting, so shims are used to raise and or lower, move in and or out.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

"I want to see a picture of the 103" fish"

I thought they were talking about 'between the eyes'.

F. Guffey

[Bart B.]

I think that if a GO, NO-GO or FIELD rimless bottleneck headspace gauge can have a headspace dimension (they all have a "head"), a chamber can have a headspace dimension (it doesn't have a "head"), a case can have a headspace dimension because it also has a head.

[F. Guffey]

"I think......." If there was such a thing as 'talking it to death, you would win.

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...pringfield.pdf

SAAMI is the standard, SAAMI uses footnotes, because of space they use symbols, SAAMI does not use a head space footnote nor do they use a head space symbol for the cartridge, they do use the symbol and footnote for the chamber.

There are comparators, there are comparators called head space gages, a more correct name for a comparator would be 'case length gage'.

The case has a length, the length of the case can be used to off set the length of the chamber.

F. Guffey

[stubbicatt]

Oh God...

Assuming good quality dies that closely approximate the dimensions of the chamber, it is a good idea to try to keep the difference between the datum line on your shoulder of your cartridge casing as close to the shoulder of your chamber, both to assure reliable ignition and to avoid overworking your casings, thus promoting longevity.

I call this dimension headspacing. You may call it whatever you wish, but the concept is pretty simple. For me, I try for .002" gap on my bolt rifles. On semi autos, I just thread the die in to touching the shellholder plus 1/4 turn, and don't worry anymore.

The method for arriving at this desired "gap" between the shoulder of the case and the shoulder of the chamber may differ. Since brass will differ due to work hardening with each firing, one will forever be fidgeting with the depth of his sizing die just a little. Unclenick's little paper rings are helpful, so is the rubber "O" ring, which allows one to adjust the die in or out a little bit for a given case.

Truthfully, if one were to just screw the die in to touching the shellholder, plus 1/4 turn more, each and every time, his cartridges will chamber just fine. They may not last as long, but...

Sigh.

[Bart B.]

Stubbycat, good quality full length sizing dies have their "chamber" dimensions smaller than barrel chambers by several thousandths. Measure both with a hole micrometer and you'll see.

Dies internal dimensions are also smaller by a few thousandths than SAAMI case dimensions so they will resize a fired case enough to chamber easily in the smallest SAAMI spec chamber.

Setting the die in the press so the shell holder stops against the die bottom sizes the fired case shoulder back enough so it'll easily chamber in the shortest SAAMI headspaced chamber.

The datum line on a bottleneck case headspacing on its shoulder is hard against the chamber shoulder when it fires. The gap's between the bolt face and case head when this happens. "Head clearance" is a common term for this dimension to alleviate confusion with "head space" which is the distance from the back of the chamber (breech face) to the datum line on its shoulder. This is the situation when the round fires having been driven hard into the chamber shoulder by the firing pin and the round fires. In-line ejectors also push the case forward to this point when chambered and before its fired. Rarely, if ever, does the case rim stop its forward movement as it contacts the extractor lip when proper size cases are used.

The confusion across all the cartridge and chamber terms and dimensions will continue as long as there's different standards, concepts, perceptions, and technical skills of folks using them. I strive to use what most folks will understand based on my experiences and professional work in communicating technical subject matter. Therefore, some will disagree adamantly; to each his own.

[Heavy Metal 1]

My intention of the 'slight snug fit' is for minimal working of the brass. My shims are .016" shims. So, for my tightest chamber I use no shims and for my most roomy chamber (Turk Mauser) I use 3. I keep my brass for each rifle seperate. I use them under the die between it and the press. This system works for me. My brass seems to last better this way and my accuracy is satisfying.

I neck size until the brass becomes difficult to chamber then in effect full length resize it w/ the appropriate number of shims. I neck size by placing a washer + shims under the die to back the die off a bit so no shoulder is touched. I am not a benchrester; I shoot hunting rifles and milsurps so this system probably won't work for the folks who change their load based on changes of the relative humidity and sunspot cycle

[GeauxTide]

On cases fired in the rifle I'm loading for, I do the following: Screw the die all the way down to the shell holder. Then, I place a nickel between die and shell holder. Voila, no shoulder set back.

[F. Guffey]

http://www.google.com/#bav=on.2,or.r...1.35+mm+inches

0.0531496 off the shell holder.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

"My intention of the 'slight snug fit' is for minimal working of the brass. My shims are .016" shims. So, for my tightest chamber I use no shims and for my most roomy chamber (Turk Mauser) I use 3"

Heavy Metal 1, If there was any truth in Bart B.s response your first time fired cases would have case head separation, , with .048" difference in length between the chamber and case from the shoulder to the head of the case, when ejecting your fired cases you would be ejecting 8MM/280 Remington cases.

F. Guffey